Exactly this - unfair if you expect Lindelof to cover someone else's man. It's actually a very good header (Pogba arguably could put Mounier off more) and then Herrera is the one who could have followed his run in.
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I agree. Maybe Herrera could have expected it if he ran straight into Lindelofs area, but why take the risk of stop tracking him? And he did not run into Lindelof zone. The entire point of this move by Hudd is heading the ball into a dangerous area;
A) Infront of our goal
B) Well out of reach from the zone that our defenders cover on the initial cross (the benefit of heading the ball back)
In my opinion it would have been incredible defending if we managed to get to the ball first. And if he had, he would have saved Herrera and Pogba.
The real lesson learned from this? If you have an agenda, dont go after it to hard because you will just end up losing credibility.
Still think he has some good attributes and hopefully he can come good for his. I guess right now that’s pretty 50/50 in all honesty. All-in-all he’s been a bloody weird purchase and has looked utterly horrible at times. I did always feel that he deserves a chance under another manager who isn’t an utter cretin and let’s see how he does from now until the end of the season.
Keep on topic please.
There's 1 area where Lindelof (and Bailly) are particularly and noticeably weak.
This is average amount of aerials won per 90 mins from players playing CB this season in the premier league.
If we ignore the players who only played 1 game, Bailly and Lindelof are 2 of the 5 CBs with the least attempts of winning the ball in the air in the league (2 and 4 respectively).
Bailly has actually won each of the headers he's challenged for so at least he has that going for him. Lindelof on the other hand has lost a decent amount of the duels he went for as well. At least its not as bad as Toby I guess but the numbers are similar and Toby simply attempted to win more than Lindelof.
For reference Smalling averages 6.5, Jones 5, Luke Shaw 3.6 from left back, Pogba 3.5 from CM, Rashford 2.9 and Sanchez 2.8 aerials per 90 mins.
Against different teams with different tactics this can either be a huge deal against teams with good threats in the air, or against teams that keep the ball on the floor it may not be as big of an issue. But it is certainly a weakness with Bailly and Lindelof and they will need teammates to cover them.
It also doesnt help that De Gea's weakness is commanding his area on crosses or coming for balls inside his 6 yard box. So its doubling down on something that, if you're an opposition player playing against United and you're okay in the air, you'll fancy yourself to get something from challenging in the air against Lindelof and Bailly as well as De Gea in goal.
De Gea probably needs CBs who are strong in the air to cover his weakest area, while Bailly and Lindelof probably need a goalkeeper who is strong coming for crosses and a CB partner who is great in the air.
Personally I still think Smalling & Lindelof is our best option most of the time for the rest of the season. But longterm I think we need another player who does well in the air to help with our weakness.
This is average amount of aerials won per 90 mins from players playing CB this season in the premier league.
If we ignore the players who only played 1 game, Bailly and Lindelof are 2 of the 5 CBs with the least attempts of winning the ball in the air in the league (2 and 4 respectively).
Bailly has actually won each of the headers he's challenged for so at least he has that going for him. Lindelof on the other hand has lost a decent amount of the duels he went for as well. At least its not as bad as Toby I guess but the numbers are similar and Toby simply attempted to win more than Lindelof.
For reference Smalling averages 6.5, Jones 5, Luke Shaw 3.6 from left back, Pogba 3.5 from CM, Rashford 2.9 and Sanchez 2.8 aerials per 90 mins.
Against different teams with different tactics this can either be a huge deal against teams with good threats in the air, or against teams that keep the ball on the floor it may not be as big of an issue. But it is certainly a weakness with Bailly and Lindelof and they will need teammates to cover them.
It also doesnt help that De Gea's weakness is commanding his area on crosses or coming for balls inside his 6 yard box. So its doubling down on something that, if you're an opposition player playing against United and you're okay in the air, you'll fancy yourself to get something from challenging in the air against Lindelof and Bailly as well as De Gea in goal.
De Gea probably needs CBs who are strong in the air to cover his weakest area, while Bailly and Lindelof probably need a goalkeeper who is strong coming for crosses and a CB partner who is great in the air.
Personally I still think Smalling & Lindelof is our best option most of the time for the rest of the season. But longterm I think we need another player who does well in the air to help with our weakness.
Thats the problem we have with CBs. Most are injury prone, or too rash, too slow, too weak, shit on the ball....There's 1 area where Lindelof (and Bailly) are particularly and noticeably weak.
This is average amount of aerials won per 90 mins from players playing CB this season in the premier league.
If we ignore the players who only played 1 game, Bailly and Lindelof are 2 of the 5 CBs with the least attempts of winning the ball in the air in the league (2 and 4 respectively).
Bailly has actually won each of the headers he's challenged for so at least he has that going for him. Lindelof on the other hand has lost a decent amount of the duels he went for as well. At least its not as bad as Toby I guess but the numbers are similar and Toby simply attempted to win more than Lindelof.
For reference Smalling averages 6.5, Jones 5, Luke Shaw 3.6 from left back, Pogba 3.5 from CM, Rashford 2.9 and Sanchez 2.8 aerials per 90 mins.
Against different teams with different tactics this can either be a huge deal against teams with good threats in the air, or against teams that keep the ball on the floor it may not be as big of an issue. But it is certainly a weakness with Bailly and Lindelof and they will need teammates to cover them.
It also doesnt help that De Gea's weakness is commanding his area on crosses or coming for balls inside his 6 yard box. So its doubling down on something that, if you're an opposition player playing against United and you're okay in the air, you'll fancy yourself to get something from challenging in the air against Lindelof and Bailly as well as De Gea in goal.
De Gea probably needs CBs who are strong in the air to cover his weakest area, while Bailly and Lindelof probably need a goalkeeper who is strong coming for crosses and a CB partner who is great in the air.
Personally I still think Smalling & Lindelof is our best option most of the time for the rest of the season. But longterm I think we need another player who does well in the air to help with our weakness.
Unfortunately, we dont have a complete CB or two. We are also far away from fielding 2 CBs for 2-3 months and build a proper connection.
Would be interesting to see stats on how many goals missed headers have cost. Can’t remember if it has been many or not. Yesterday was one after Pogba’s lost header.
I really want him to be amazing. And he is at certain things, but his lack of ability on aerial balls has hurt us in the past and will again in the future.
I re-watched the Huddersfield match and noted the six (half) chances they created:
1st chance: Lindelof loses a header on a cross. Pogba could have done better. Luckily, Kongolo misses.
2nd chance: Lindelof gets bullied on a cross. Depoitre misses the overhead kick.
3rd chance: Fred lets Billing run past him like he's not there.
4th chance: Dalot lets Mbenza run past him like he's not there.
5th chance: Brilliant freekick leading to a Depoitre chance. No blame there.
6th chance: Lindolof loses his man on a cross and Jorgenson scores.
Dalot and Fred both got pulled minutes later. Lindelof stayed on because our only CB option on the bench, Bailly, is even worse in the air.
I just don't think Lindelof senses aerial danger early enough, and doesn't use his body well enough. And I've not seen him improve in those aspects, either. I think it's the main reason that Matic has been undroppable (hence the lack of Fred, if Mourinho is to be believed) and Fellaini has got so many minutes.
The first one was on Lindelof and Dalot, unbelievable that both of them basically didn't challenge at all for the ball. The 2nd chance I think is good defending. He puts the attacker off so his only option is to do an overhead kick instead of a header (if I remember the situation correctly). The goal is so much more than just Lindelof. First of all Pogba loses the header so it's basically the same situation that you are blaming Lindelof for on the 1st chance. Then Herrera is the one tracking Zanka and inexplicably stops.
Just stumbled on this....brilliant
I listed the main culprits. You could argue every chance conceded is down the full XI on the pitch.
Shifting the blame doesn't exculpate Lindelof. He's the last line of defence and needs to sort it out the way a top class defender (or Jones) does, even if others could have done better as well.
He's covering where he is supposed to. Herrera should've tracked the run, de Gea should've challenged for the ball and Pogba should've challenged for the header. They are all bigger or at least as big culprits as Lindelof for the goal. You have just decided that Lindelof is a bad defenders and therefore that's all you see, it's called confirmation bias.
Those two at least tried but lost out.
Lindelof's defending on that chance was shockingly bad. A top class defender doesn't let that happen.
You're just ignoring Lindelof's mistakes and making exuses by blaming others' smaller. It's call what-aboutism.
Sorry Victor but irrespective how well you play, the vultures will always be circling just waiting for you to mess up but until then, they will continue to focus on what he can't do and belittle the things that you can. Heading may not be his strength but his ability as a footballer is there to see. VVD didn't have many takers when he was at Celtic who sold him for bloody 13m to Southampton so can we just see how he develops as we might in a few years view the 35m as a bargain. There are plenty of CB's in football that can head a ball, but only a limited view who can pass it.
I'm literally saying the same thing.
In what way is to stop tracking the run considered trying? Of course you are going lose out if you just stop playing
Imho you don't know what you are taking about regarding that situation, so let's agree to disagree.
He has his weaknesses and he may never been the best header of the ball but like all our best CB partnerships, we found a player to complement the other. What we don't have at the club is a dominant WC CB that I believe would make Lindelof and say Bailly look a lot better than they do.
Quite fitting tbh
That is because in essence it is a very important trait to have for that position. More so than passing. That is why there aren't many players like Fellaini lounging around in midfield either. Doesn't mean because there are few like him, that makes him great?
I think it's a bigger prerequisite in modern and why Smalling who is probably one of the best headers of a football watched the World Cup for his front room. Heading the football is more about defending set pieces which is a collective effort with even forwards dropping in. If you look at the best teams in football, the idea that your CB can either pass through the press or run into the space breaking through the press is massive. Also means you can play much higher up the pitch if your midfielders are having to take the ball of the CB's in their own half...
In what way is to stop tracking the run considered trying? Of course you are going lose out if you just stop playing
Imho you don't know what you are taking about regarding that situation, so let's agree to disagree.
Can you not see Pogba trying? He loses out. That happens sometimes. Herrera isn't good enough either, but it's not the biggest mistake here.
If Pogba and Lindelof had their roles reversed, I'd be calling out Poba on this one.
Lindelof does absolutely nothing. He's supposed to be defending.
I have no favourites at United, and I haven't done since I was a kid. I'd love Lindelof to be world class, but he simply isn't when he's so prone to letting chances happen around him.
I'm willing to look at the bad and the good (I described Lindelof as 'amazing... at certain things' further up the page). You're only willing to look at the things that suit your agenda.
I think all three can be criticised. It is Herrera's man though.
I won't take it off topic completely, but what you are doing is generalising. The best clubs all have defenders who can defend first and foremost. In my view if a defender is dominant enough with both his physique and in the air he can be of more value to a team offensively by providing goals and be proactive higher up the pitch. A team that is defending is always likely to clear the ball with a lofted kick, and a player like Smalling are more likely to win his duel against the lone striker to keep the attack going, because of his physical dominance. I see "modern football" being brought up as a way to hyper-focus on the passing, but it has been like this for a long time now with the best teams. You simply need to be capable of both but if you are very strong on defending as a CB, it might be enough, whilst as if you are only strong at passing you will get found out defensively eventually, even if you play for Pep.
If I am being honest, I struggle to see Lindelof use his pace to run past immense collective pressure, or pass between the lines when pressured. Those things happen very seldom anyways and if you find yourself in a position where your CB is isolated like that, you have made another mistake already. All CB's hoof in this situation, so I hope you don't expect more from Lindelof as you will be disappointed. He has made great use of the space in front of him last couple of games but that has as much to do with our tactics and it actually being space to run into. Lets not pretend Smalling hasn't done similar before. Also, I expect more running past pressure and passing between the lines from Smalling now because we have a lot more movement and more space.
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Thats Mounie beating Pogba in the air, he has 2nd highest amount of headers in the league. Jones might have won it but chances are whoever jumps with him isnt going to win the first ball. So its a good thing we have 2 CBs free to clear the area
True.
But my contention is that both Pogba and Herrera are 'only' guilty of bad defending. The two got beaten by a good header and a good run which can happen from time to time.
On the other hand, Lindelof is guilty of non-defending.
The latter is the bigger issue, especially when you're talking about one of your two central defenders.
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You know that if Fellani had been there he would certainly have cleared it.
That goal is primarily on Herrera.
Can you not see Pogba trying? He loses out. That happens sometimes. Herrera isn't good enough either, but it's not the biggest mistake here.
If Pogba and Lindelof had their roles reversed, I'd be calling out Poba on this one.
Lindelof does absolutely nothing. He's supposed to be defending.
I have no favourites at United, and I haven't done since I was a kid. I'd love Lindelof to be world class, but he simply isn't when he's so prone to letting chances happen around him.
I'm willing to look at the bad and the good (I described Lindelof as 'amazing... at certain things' further up the page). You're only willing to look at the things that suit your agenda.
DDG, who had a better view, also didnt close down on the ball but that is secondary.
A defender switching off 3-0 up in the 88th min by not anticipating the Huddersfield player running away from Herrera is not a bigger crime than Ander simply not defending his man properly.
I take your point (though I disagree about the main culprit).
But I listed all 6 chances that Huddersfield created. Even if you discount the goal itself, Lidelof does poorly in 3 of the other 5. He's currently a weak link, especially on crosses and long balls.
And if Herrera hadn't lost his man, a top defender woud still be breaking his neck to clear that ball. It's less forgivable for a defender to be bad at defending than for a midfielder to be bad at defending.
I feel bad picking on the guy so much in the last few posts. I'm only calling it how I see it. I really hope he can turn it around because there are a lot things he's really good at.
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Considering the number of chances Smalling and Jones have had over the years, Lindelof still has plenty of lives left.
A few clean sheets will do a world of good for all the back 5 tbh.
A few clean sheets will do a world of good for all the back 5 tbh.
I only made a comments about Herrera since Pogba is obviously trying for it... Don't know why you felt the need to bring that up.
Can you not see Pogba trying? He loses out. That happens sometimes. Herrera isn't good enough either, but it's not the biggest mistake here.
If Pogba and Lindelof had their roles reversed, I'd be calling out Poba on this one.
Lindelof does absolutely nothing. He's supposed to be defending.
I have no favourites at United, and I haven't done since I was a kid. I'd love Lindelof to be world class, but he simply isn't when he's so prone to letting chances happen around him.
I'm willing to look at the bad and the good (I described Lindelof as 'amazing... at certain things' further up the page). You're only willing to look at the things that suit your agenda.
Classic, accusing the other person for having an agenda as soons as someone disagrees with you. It's getting boring now.
It's actually a superb ball by Mounie across the goal. Super hard to defend against in the position Lindelof finds himself in. You can argue he should anticipate it better and drop back earlier but he needs to keep the line as well. His best bet is to hope that De Gea can claim it or that someone else has the back post covered. If he goes for it and it's an own goal you would be here whining about it as well.
The whole defence needs to play a higher line. It's not any one player's fault.
Or DDG needs to be more proactive and stop being rooted to his position
Or DDG needs to be more proactive and stop being rooted to his position
How in earths name can you blame Lindelof in that situation? He reacted fast as you can see in the gif but wasnt able to reach the ball. Definitely not his fault.
It’s a bit ironic that this conversation comes up now, when the first United goal happened because of Lindelof’s header...
But in general it is his weakest skill of the more important skills. At the same time there are some decent CB who are poor in the air. Someone just posted stats showing that Alderweireld was maybe the worst in the PL. Maybe not a world class player, but certainly a decent CB.
If you can’t win a header you must make sure not to lose it. That might be easier to improve than winning headers.
But in general it is his weakest skill of the more important skills. At the same time there are some decent CB who are poor in the air. Someone just posted stats showing that Alderweireld was maybe the worst in the PL. Maybe not a world class player, but certainly a decent CB.
If you can’t win a header you must make sure not to lose it. That might be easier to improve than winning headers.
In your post you listed 3 situation in total where you thought he was at fault so if we discount the goal there's only 2 left, no? In one of those he puts the attacker of so his only option is to attempt an overhead kick, which you can argue is actually good defending. So we are down to one lost duel in one game, where he was at fault together with Dalot. I think that's a good defensive perfomance.
About the other post that's not the same as saying someone has an agenda. I'm saying that you subconscioucly see bad defending because of how you believe he will perform.
He could have better positioning and anticipation. He was sleeping a bit there. But all defenders do things like that from time to time. Not a big deal, but it is fair to call him out on it too.
Although you have to laugh at the scrutiny these United players are under sometimes. It is astonishing.
I see all these as nitpicking. There's bound to be chances created in a football match. No matter the opposition. So its pointless to start nitpicking on every chances created against us. Yes, everyone involved in that goal could have done better. But to say that it's entire Lindelof's fault is totally biased opinion.
Why not watch the match again and observes how many good defensive action he did? He was great. Interceptions/tackles. He had a good game.
Why not watch the match again and observes how many good defensive action he did? He was great. Interceptions/tackles. He had a good game.
can't be bothered to respond to all the points but simply the profile and role of the CB's is significantly different than even a few years ago. The most coveted CB's are the best footballers and not necessarily the best defenders. If it was simple about being a good defender then Smalling would be worth 70m.
Irrespective of whether it's the tactics or not, you still have to have the ability to execute it and whilst for reasons I don't understand why some don't seem to be able to acknowledge anything good in Lindelof, I think he has shown that has the mental strength and ability to be a Utd player given the difficult start and criticism he had to initially face. I'm gonna celebrate it and hope he continues to prove others wrong. If you want to take a forensic view of anyone's game, you will always find areas that he can improve on. Nothing any different than any other player....
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