They paid 75 million for him and he's proven he's worth more than that. There's no way he's going for less than 120 million and I don't think there's any club out there who'd pay that for a defender. I don't see how he can force his way out of Liverpool considering he's already 27 and is presumably on a contract that runs until he's over 30.
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
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This is not true, they are major reasons as to why those defences were phenomenal. Rio played alongside Silvestre and Brown in early part of his career and made them look far better than they actually were. Rio-Vidic partnership played regularly for only 2 and a half seasons, Vidic played alongside Evans/O'Shea while Rio was having back troubles, we let in fewest goals enroute to a PL win in 08/09. When Vidic did his cruciate, Rio played alongside Evans enroute to another PL title win in 2012/13. John Terry on his last leg made Gary Cahill look like a world beater in Chelsea's win in 14/15. At their peak Terry and Vidic were voted POTY in PL, you're really underselling their impact by saying they played alongside phenomenal players.
It's nothing new for a big money signing to make an impact, question is whether he can keep it for number of years. van Dijk has shown it for what? 5 months? And you lot are saying he's the best CB Premier League has EVER seen?
Once again, here's something for you to chew upon. Ever thought about the standards of current defender? Especially in the Premier League? If its a major part of the reason why he's standing out so much?
He's achieved nothing of note yet to be warranted to be labelled as the best ever in the PL. If you lot continue to big him up, it'll bring contempt when he inevitably drops a bollock.
Vidic didn't walk into awesome team, when he was signed, ManUtd dropped out of CL in group stages and didn't win league in 4 years. He was one of the reason why defense improved few levels. Him and Rio were perfect CB pair.
Also in 2009-10 when Rio was injured lot, ManUtd conceded 10 goals in first 25 league games, better record than this Liverpools, which included run of 14 games without conceding a goal.
Also conceded just 6 goals in CL (12 games) till finals.
Also in 2009-10 when Rio was injured lot, ManUtd conceded 10 goals in first 25 league games, better record than this Liverpools, which included run of 14 games without conceding a goal.
Also conceded just 6 goals in CL (12 games) till finals.
Do you see the irony when you try to justify those VVD vs Rio, Terry Vidic Stam and come to say this about Robertson?
When 13months ago VVD was still playing mid-table with SOuthampton
Great points on a case vs case study on vvd and vidic.
I have to admit vidic was especially one player who I felt would edge vvd at present because of the unbeaten and lack of conceding spell you had.
I already expressed my hesistancy over calling vvd the best ever due to the lack of winners medals and time being this good.
Yes and no. Although I appreciate the ‘irony’, I honestly feel looking at vvd I can see the quality in the pitch which makes him go head to head with Terry, Rio, vidic.
I can’t see the level or quality of performance from Robertson which made me think he’s better than evra or Cole.
This is of course all hypothetical and we have to assume and measure what we see, unless someone wants to jump in a time machine or lock this thread until vvd retires.
I think he stacks up to Evra well enough so far.
Cole was better than either though.
Cole was better than either though.
Start of the season you told me he was no better than Bailly Lindelof or jones
And yet you're trying to argue VVD, based on 12 months worth of performances is somehow as good or even better than Rio, Vidic, Terry, etc? He's been great but to even be mentioned in the same breath as those guys he needs to do it over multiple years and marshal multiple title winning teams.
Robertson in the last 12months has made so much improvement and produced the type of performance that he is seen as the best LB in the league
If he continues at this rate, he will be in the echelon of Cashley and Evra in the next 3 seasons
Didn't Mourinho claim a few weeks ago that he got dizzy watching Robertson own the entire left flank?
If it doesn't make sense to compare 18months of Robertson to Evra and Cole, how does it make sense to compare 12months of VVD to Vidic Stam, Terry, Carvalho and Rio
I'm not sold on VVD yet. His positioning is good and he likes to get physical but he's very negative, always goes square or back with a pass. Looks good due to the way Liverpool play means he's usually mopping up loose balls or shrugging off a striker on the end of a through ball.
He'd shit the bed if he actually had a striker running at him.
He'd shit the bed if he actually had a striker running at him.
I'm not really trying to vehemently argue VVD is the best premier league defender of all time.
The truth is, there is no way of coming to a definitive conclusion on who is the best premier league defender of all time when you include a player who is still playing, whilst you can judge the others candidates by analysing their careers in completion.
However for the sake of debating, we have to at some point make assumptions. Otherwise we should not ever compare players playing to ones who've retired, which is boring; and would be a really quick and crap debate.
Also I feel like you're not reading my posts. I've CLEARLY stated that what VVD lacks is winners medals and longevity and therefore its hard to call him the best defender the premier league has had.
I feel from the level of play and influence VVD has had in the past 12 months, there is a strong chance that he could be considered one of, if not the best, centre back the premier league has seen by the time he has retired. However I'm not trying to debate he IS the best premier league defender we have ever seen, because quite simply we have a severe lack of evidence to enforce that opinion (lack of years in the premier league, lack of medals, lack of experience compared to other candidates).
Great point. Why do I feel so strongly to compare VVD to Stam, Terry, Rio but not Robertson to Cole and Evra.
Its quite simple. Its a subjective opinion based on watching every single Liverpool game.
I feel watching VVD, he's a genuinely very very good player. I feel his attributes and level of play line up with the best of what the premier league has shown me in my time of watching it. I do NOT feel Robertson has demonstrated a level of play equal to the best left backs I've seen. His form has been great, no doubt about it BUT watching every single Liverpool game, I've seen many moments of sloppiness from Robertson. Comparing him to the best left backs I've seen play, I don't feel he's close to it yet. I could go into detail as to why, but it would derail the thread.
Could he get there? Sure. I just feel far far more confident in VVD maintaining his form which he's demonstrated over the past 12 months than Robertson. This is no slight on Robertson; he's been fantastic.
The simple point is, subjectively by watching both players extensively, VVD has convinced me more than Robertson.
Am I saying VVD is definitively better than Terry/Stam/Rio/Vidic? No, or at least I didn't mean to say that so definitively. I'm saying there is a speculative case to be made that he could be considered one of the best. The only way of ascertaining whether he is one of the best will be to see, once he has retired, and then compare his level of performance to the greats. I'm being captain obvious here. But I thought everyone already knew this and for the sake of a decent debate about a player, we have to ignore this to speculate his ability compared to the best?
You said it. Rest of your post is a complete waste of time. There’s more probability that VVD will never win anything of note than him winning as much as Vidic.
Eh, joining Real and Barca is a step up in "prestige" and salary for most players. The cities have better weather so it really comes down to what your family situation is like if you want to move or not. If you're not British I don't see why either of these options don't sound tempting, especially Barca as they don't have the same amount of toxicity around the club as Real (except if you're a CB). As far as non-British players in the PL I would never say never regarding those two clubs.
Oh yes. Every other player had it easy. Its always Liverpool players that rise against the tide and do special things. You make VVD sound like some sort of defensive God. He hasn't had one great season at the very highest level yet and he's 27. Granted he's looking excellent right now but let's wait before comparing him to players achieved far more than him and performed far better than him at his age.
Yup, everything you say is true. Yet, I still think he’ll be happy enough to stay at Liverpool as long as they start winning trophies and Klopp is there. Here’s why:
- He’s played at Celtic, Southampton, and bided his time to go to Liverpool when he could have just as easily gone to City. He’s not a pure mercenary who has at least some sense of loyalty, and isn’t afraid to play in cold weather.
- He’s not from a Spanish speaking country. The allure of La Liga simply isn’t as strong if you’re not from a native Spanish or Portuguese speaking country.
- He can make just as much money in the PL, if not more as he could in La Liga. The bottom line is, more players come to the PL from La Liga, than the other way around.
- He’s a physical and athletic defender through and through who was made for the PL.
- Will prolly be made Liverpool captain sooner than later.
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This.
He’s the best defender in the League right now and the reason Liverpool are top of the table.
Loved Jaap Stam, but right now I don't see how he was better than VvD in his current form.
Fun fact: Jaap Stam took a managers role in the Dutch league and is now coaching PEC Zwolle.
Fun fact: Jaap Stam took a managers role in the Dutch league and is now coaching PEC Zwolle.
I was clearly wrong, and also going off the basis that United only conceded 28 league goals all season. Only 1 less that champions City who achieved record points.
Surely you realised that was down to the combination of De Gea and our ridiculously conservative approach? Judging the quality of individual central defenders on the goals against column is madness.
No, I only explored the possibility. If you read my first post on this thread, I clearly stated vvd lacks winners medals.
I don’t appreciate your very rude tone in regards to disregarding someone’s opinion as a complete waste of time, but clearly you lack basic human decorum and manners so I will refrain from further debating with you.
I also don’t doubt vvd will not win as much as vidic. Vidic, Rio and that whole united blessed were brilliant consistently under the best manager in the world.
ffs
Obviously OTT but I don’t remember saying that. If he can provide the post that said that then fair enough.
However people comparing him to Terry, Rio, Stam etc is ludicrous.
Swap VVD for Alderweireld or Vertonghen and Liverpool would still be top. Seeing people say he is the only reason they are top is stupid. Most of the Liverpool strongest 11 are to do with it also. Their attack and way they play is a major factor.
Tell that to the people in this thread, because that is exactly what they are doing for VVD.
1. There are no loyalties in football. VVD has played for 4 different clubs in the last 6 years.
2. The Dutch have strong ties to Barca because of Cruyff.
3. He could. There are not many big players that have come from La Liga to the PL. It's pretty much only when Real or Barca don't play them.
4. Good defenders are physical and athletic everywhere.
5. If that matters to a player then other points don't really matter since this player is not thinking about money.
I can’t speak for everyone else but I judge how good players are by how well they play. In terms of Liverpool being where they are the league right now their defence is obviously a massive factor. Their attack only recently started firing so they’ve been much more reliant on their defence than they were last season.
Obviously upgrading the keeper has also been a big help but I’m astonished that anyone can have watched Van Dijk’s career (at Liverpool and at Southampton) and not have him up there with all time best PL defenders. He’s clearly a class above 99% of the players who play that position (including the Spurs CBs) and fecking lightyears ahead of anyone at United.
I don't get these 'who is better' between VVD or Vidic, Robertson or Evra.
They'll have to keep this level in years to come to be even comparable, not to mention the trophies.
They are doing great now though, no doubt.
They'll have to keep this level in years to come to be even comparable, not to mention the trophies.
They are doing great now though, no doubt.
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There's not a single person who would say that Utd have a better CB than VVD. Is the Pope Catholic?
The issue people have is that you are claiming he's one of the PL all time great, after only one year at Liverpool (where he has been excellent), but won the sum total of Sweet FA in his career. Noone, not Vidic, not Adams, Campbell, Rio, Terry etc etc were great players based off of 12 months, that's completely and utterly nuts.
Again no-one is saying he can't be mentioned in the same breath as the great PL defenders, but give it another 2 years. Is he one of the great PL defenders? Absoubtly not, could he be? Yes.
Well, I apologize for being rude.
Robertson? Long way to go. Would take Evra any day based on what I've seen so far. I do like Robertson though. Best in the league right now.
It seems the dippers will never change. They’re desperate to have players that are seen as the best in the league, even when they were doing shite they had the best player here and there. Now that they’re doing a bit better it’s reaching new levels of delusion. Anyone comparing VVD currently to the likes of Vidic and Ferdinand is off their nuts, or any legendary defender that’s won lesgue titles and European titles.
End of story.
Edit: I see Evra has even been brought up in comparison to Robertson.
This is why they should be nowhere near the title.
End of story.
Edit: I see Evra has even been brought up in comparison to Robertson.
This is why they should be nowhere near the title.
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Based on watching him at Liverpool and Southampton I would say his performance levels are right up there with the best PL defenders I’ve seen. Obviously you could argue that a true “great” should have medals to prove it. To me that’s irrelevant to how good an individual actually is (e.g. Matt Le Tiss) but it’s a fair point.
The only other criticism you could aim his direction would be whether he can sustain these levels, long term, but this his fifth PL season and he’s been a model of consistency so far, so there’s no reason to assume he’ll get worse from here. Taking his age into account, there’s a good chance he’ll get better.
Judging players by trophies won is stupid, there's no two ways about it. It is objectively an awful way to assess how good an individual player is and completely ignores context. Harry Kane is arguably the best striker in the world and has never won a club trophy, had he made a switch earlier in his career he likely would have done. Trophies are a team achievement, how exactly was Van Djik going to power Southampton to trophies alone? He was at Liverpool for half of a season and it's hardly his fault they lost to Real Madrid in a CL final.
There are lots of players with loads of trophies who weren't really that good individually, and lots of players who were excellent but played for less successful clubs. You don't need club trophies to be recognised as a great player, Shearer is still a legendary striker despite a very meagre trophy haul, and Djimi Traore didn't suddenly become a great when he picked up a CL trophy. That said, a much fairer reason for not viewing VVD as up there with legendary names of the past is simply that he hasn't done it for a long enough period. He's been a monster this season and was very good in the second half of last season/for Southampton the season before, but I'd say to be properly up there with the greats you need to have numerous top level seasons.
His current performances are definitely on par with some of the greats though. Players actively avoid taking him on because they know how good he is in 1vs1 situations, the guy made Traore (one of the strongest, fastest players in the league) look like a pussycat a few games ago, shoving him off the ball after outpacing him. Combine that with how calm he seems on the ball, and the authority he brings to the backline, and you have a ridiculously good central defender. I had my doubts last season but this campaign he has been stupidly good.
There are lots of players with loads of trophies who weren't really that good individually, and lots of players who were excellent but played for less successful clubs. You don't need club trophies to be recognised as a great player, Shearer is still a legendary striker despite a very meagre trophy haul, and Djimi Traore didn't suddenly become a great when he picked up a CL trophy. That said, a much fairer reason for not viewing VVD as up there with legendary names of the past is simply that he hasn't done it for a long enough period. He's been a monster this season and was very good in the second half of last season/for Southampton the season before, but I'd say to be properly up there with the greats you need to have numerous top level seasons.
His current performances are definitely on par with some of the greats though. Players actively avoid taking him on because they know how good he is in 1vs1 situations, the guy made Traore (one of the strongest, fastest players in the league) look like a pussycat a few games ago, shoving him off the ball after outpacing him. Combine that with how calm he seems on the ball, and the authority he brings to the backline, and you have a ridiculously good central defender. I had my doubts last season but this campaign he has been stupidly good.
It isn't, unless longevity at top level compensates for a lack of trophies.
Only Spurs fans would have Kane as one of the best CF in the history of EPL. Why? Because he's won feck all and has played only 3 years at top level. Shearer won the league when he was a year younger than Kane and went on to have 10 seasons as one of the best strikers around.
VVD wasn't at that level for Soton from start to finish. Can't remember many people saying he's good enough for top top clubs back then. And most managers weren't impressed with him either. United and City went respectively for Bailly and Stones in 2016 when VVD was available for 30m.
Liverpool's excellent defensive record is down to many factors: Alisson and Robertson are among the very best in their position, top 5 in the world. TAA and Gomez are great youngsters. Liverpool's midfield is the most hard working midfield in the world, not only in England. The front 3 are arguably the best high pressing unit in the EPL.
VVD is better on the ball than Vidic and maybe a bit quicker too but not as hard physically and mentally wise imo. His calmness has its drawback. He's a bit too languid for a CB.
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Uh, Kane will absolutely be one of the best forwards in the history of the PL if he keeps up this level (which he will). It won't only be Spurs fans seeing him that way, it'll be logical football fans who can see that a guy who bangs them in at every level is absolutely world class regardless of whether his team wins trophies. You can view it any way you like, he's currently the most deadly striker in the world and would start for any team in world football. Plenty of non Spurs fans even on here view him as the best current out and out striker.
VVD was always rated highly at Southampton, City were very interested along with Liverpool and there's a reason he went for huge money. I'm aware that VVD isn't solely responsible for their great defensive record but as an individual he has been immense, absolutely the perfect central defender this season.
Didn't stop Rio becoming one of the best CBs I've ever seen. Easily on a par with Vidic.
Nail. Head. Kane will be a great player if he performs over a period of time. He's been one of the best in the league for 3 years, VVD has been for a year. That's the whole crux of the discussion.
Kane certainly is not one of the great PL strikers, but in a year/ two he can start to lay that claim. If he keeps scoring at the rate he has been for another 5/6 years he will be up with Shearer.
VVD is not one of the greatest CB's in the PL, he's probably the best in the league at the moment, but needs to be at that level for another 3-4 years to be compared to the greats. He was a good player, a good prospect at Southampton, he wasn't great there at all, but he's stepped up now. No player is great after just 12 months.
Edit: as an example of calling a player great too early is Stam, who FYI was a better player than VVD, but injuries, falling out with Fergie and loss of form prevented him from being a great player. I know Fergie says he regretted selling him, but he wasn't as good at Lazio.
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Maybe you are right that VVD and Rio are more similar than I'd like to admit.
Well yeah, if anybody is saying VVD is already a PL legend they're a fool. I think what people are saying is that right now he's playing at that level, which I don't think is false at all. Just like it's not false to say that Kane the last couple of seasons has been playing at a level comparable to the best strikers in PL history.
Of course, to be part of that list you need to do it for a long time. You can't become a great in a single season, that goes without saying.
Pains me to admit it too! They're depressingly similar. Honestly can't think of any central defender more reminiscent of Rio since he hung his boots up.
Maybe Varane? Or Thiago Silva? (I don't watch enough European football to have much of a clue about most non PL players)