Virgin media complains about lack of domestic premier league rights

mitChley

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I'm definitely one of those that see the 3pm rule as a good thing.

I often watch the early kick off, nip to the local nonleague game for 3pm then back for the late kick off.

I would never want to see it removed.
 

matherto

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I'm definitely one of those that see the 3pm rule as a good thing.

I often watch the early kick off, nip to the local nonleague game for 3pm then back for the late kick off.

I would never want to see it removed.
You could still do that though?
 

matherto

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I could, but I would be a lot less inclined to, I'm sure many would.
Thing is, non league watchers are a very small minority, attendances are usually in the hundreds rather than thousands. I'd wager there are many thousands more in this country that would like to see their team at 3pm that don't/wouldn't go to non league matches as it is now.

It makes no sense to use that as a reason not to have televised 3pm kick offs.
 

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The way I see it, increasing the number of buyers for the same number of games will only further penalise the fans financially, forcing them to pay for more TV packages if they want to see all the games. Supply and demand and all that.

They need to increase the supply by broadcasting more games. Ok - The non-league clubs may lose out. As I live on the Isle of Man I don't really give a shit though, as I can't get to any games (non league or otherwise) affordably on a regular basis. Yet I also don't get the advantages of living abroad and being able to watch more games at once.

It's brilliant being able to go to bars abroad and watch 3 or 4 games at once. I'd love the same at home too.
 

mitChley

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Thing is, non league watchers are a very small minority, attendances are usually in the hundreds rather than thousands. I'd wager there are many thousands more in this country that would like to see their team at 3pm that don't/wouldn't go to non league matches as it is now.

It makes no sense to use that as a reason not to have televised 3pm kick offs.
At the same time with the attendances being hundreds if you show games on Sky and 50 people stay and watch that instead it will have a huge effect on those non-league clubs.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Probably been said somewhere, but could a day not come where clubs control their own games for the TV, so United through their TV channel show all their Old trafford games for a monthly fee, and pay the away game team a fee to show that game, the income they could generate would be massive.

I know it would be a case of the rich getting richer etc, but the set up at the moment is far too restrictive.
 

stevoc

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Maybe thats thanks to the 3PM rule?
No doubt the 3pm blackout helps boost lower league attendances a little, but as i said in my opinion no where near as much as the people who want to keep it in place would have you believe.

People already have the ability in the UK to watch 3pm matches either in the pub or on streams, lifting the blackout and televising saturday matches would simply be making it more convenient for tens of thousands of people who are watching the matches anyway and who have no intention of going to a lower league game to see 3pm's.

Ending the blackout would have very little effect on attendances lower down the pyramid.
 

stevoc

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The matches are moved for TV now yes; I'm just stating why the rule was brought in. Taken to the extreme though, could all games not be moved out of this restriction so that they may also be shown? I agree the rule should've been scrapped ages ago, but so far it has been resisted.
Im sure they could do that, and no doubt Sky has thought about it. But 3pm kickoffs are traditional to move them all would be a real pain for regular match goers. Back when i had a season ticket i loved going to the match at 3, early or late saturday kick offs never quite felt the same.
 

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In India, we pay even lesser than that for BPL, La liga, Serie A , Bundesliga, French Ligue, UCL, Europa League, Hyundai-A League, all domestic cups and many international games including Euros and World Cup.
I suspect the lower price in India is compensation for the fact that the cable will invariably crap out half way through the match you were staying up til 2AM to watch (Champions League final in Moscow for me) or even when the cable stays on they may decide to switch to the recorded highlights of an India vs England test match from the '80s at half time and forget to ever switch back.

So why can NBC buy overseas rights and televise every match live, yet the host country won't permit within its own border?
Because as others have pointed out, the UK preserves the archaic idea that since 3pm Saturday is the traditional kick off time for all matches (league and non league), showing the big matches at 3pm on a Saturday would eat into the attendances and finances of the smaller clubs. I'd suspect that my local non league club Tonbridge Angels might lose 10% of its 500 strong weekly attendance if that were the case but at £10 a head that's hardly going to break a club that are made up of amateurs and volunteers enjoying themselves at the weekend while more televised matches might bring a little more FA funding their way.
 

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I suspect the lower price in India is compensation for the fact that the cable will invariably crap out half way through the match you were staying up til 2AM to watch (Champions League final in Moscow for me) or even when the cable stays on they may decide to switch to the recorded highlights of an India vs England test match from the '80s at half time and forget to ever switch back.
No way. Infact these matches are now shown on HD channels. And it never happened to me during the Moscow final.
 

Bury Red

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No way. Infact these matches are now shown on HD channels. And it never happened to me during the Moscow final.
It was meant in light spirits but HD or no HD, the fact is that when I lived in Chennai (2006-8) the cable service did crap out almost as often as the electric and late at night it took far longer for them to realise and to fix it, the whole second half and extra time of the Moscow final was relayed to me by text messages from my Sister in the UK as the cable being down meant we also had no internet access to get the commentary on line. I spent much of my time on the road so caught matches on hotel cable in many other cities as well and drop outs of 5 - 10 minutes were fairly commonplace. The match being cut at half time and replaced with a 25 year old cricket match was United v Liverpool IIRC, the only time we'd actually arranged to go out and watch a match in the bar of the Sheraton, myself and my MD just pissed ourselves laughing when it became apparent that it was not the bar staff who had changed the channel but the TV company.

Football is cheap to watch in India because it's still a minority interest and the money just isn't there, as interest and salaries grow you'll rapidly see the prices rise to the sort of levels they are in Singapore or Hong Kong although even there it was still only £20-30 per month and you got every single game broadcast live.
 

Nighteyes

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It was meant in light spirits but HD or no HD, the fact is that when I lived in Chennai (2006-8) the cable service did crap out almost as often as the electric and late at night it took far longer for them to realise and to fix it, the whole second half and extra time of the Moscow final was relayed to me by text messages from my Sister in the UK as the cable being down meant we also had no internet access to get the commentary on line. I spent much of my time on the road so caught matches on hotel cable in many other cities as well and drop outs of 5 - 10 minutes were fairly commonplace. The match being cut at half time and replaced with a 25 year old cricket match was United v Liverpool IIRC, the only time we'd actually arranged to go out and watch a match in the bar of the Sheraton, myself and my MD just pissed ourselves laughing when it became apparent that it was not the bar staff who had changed the channel but the TV company.

Football is cheap to watch in India because it's still a minority interest and the money just isn't there, as interest and salaries grow you'll rapidly see the prices rise to the sort of levels they are in Singapore or Hong Kong although even there it was still only £20-30 per month and you got every single game broadcast live.
I can safely say that's never happened to me in all these years. Besides, no one uses cable anymore I don't think.
 

Bury Red

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Guys, we're getting off topic and I'm not attacking India, only recounting personal experiences in a lighthearted way. I envy what you guys pay to watch every game, I don't envy the shoddy service you get though and definitely don't miss Shebby Singh talking shit at halftime (we used to pray they'd switch to the cricket then).

Just because you don't use cable doesn't mean the rest of India don't, to the best of my knowledge it was around 50/50 cable vs satellite in Chennai and it looks like cable is still thriving there given the continuing court arguments over the multiple missed deadlines for cable switching from analogue to digital in Chennai as only 20% of the 3 Million Chennaites subscribed had the right equipment to receive digital signals while I'd assume none of the other 15 Million with dodgy pirate cable boxes were set up properly either.
 

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Guys, we're getting off topic and I'm not attacking India, only recounting personal experiences in a lighthearted way. I envy what you guys pay to watch every game, I don't envy the shoddy service you get though and definitely don't miss Shebby Singh talking shit at halftime (we used to pray they'd switch to the cricket then).

Just because you don't use cable doesn't mean the rest of India don't, to the best of my knowledge it was around 50/50 cable vs satellite in Chennai and it looks like cable is still thriving there given the continuing court arguments over the multiple missed deadlines for cable switching from analogue to digital in Chennai as only 20% of the 3 Million Chennaites subscribed had the right equipment to receive digital signals while I'd assume none of the other 15 Million with dodgy pirate cable boxes were set up properly either.
Don't worry...we're are not taking it in a bad way anyways. Shebby Singh is no more now. We get actual team legends every weekend and the pre and post match discussions are very good now.

It's compulsary now for the cities to have Satellite only as cable is banned all throughout the country.
 

Bury Red

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Yes they're as long as they pay the full sky sports football package for pubs. Its only illegal if they're shown on the foreign channels.
Except the full Sky Sports package does not have any 3pm kick offs due to the rule we are discussing here. Any pub showing them in the UK must be using foreign channels and Sky have tried to shut it down with some success although a few pubs have won small victories in the European courts.
 

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Just look at the German model once again for how it seems to work best:

They have probably the highest match-day attendance figures in Europe and yet they screen every single game live on a dedicated Bundesliga channel on SKY that costs the same as adding any general SKY Sports or Movie package to your basic SKY.

If 8 games are playing live at 15:00 Saturday then you can watch a multicast that switches between all 8 games and focuses on matches with penalties/FK/goals in real-time. Or you can switch to a dedicated channel with any specific one of the 8 (your team's game).

Games are also repeated throughout the week with extra analysis and punditry too so that is a bonus.

It certainly hasn't ruined match day fan attendances here in Germany, if anything it creates a healthier interest in the game as a whole (rather than just focusing on only the larger teams) as people are able to follow their fav team throughout the season even if they are the equivalent of Palace or Hull.

There is an argument that getting to see every game of your team's season (even if they are not a top-four TV draw) creates a stronger more loyal fan-base throughout the league that might eventually develop into an increase in season-tickets sales and fan attendance rather than a decrease.

I still think there will always be a healthy interest in MOTD type highlights shows because most people will only watch their team's game live and will want to see what the competition are doing as well as hear pundit's analysis about their own team too.

Think it's also a thing about the English not really liking change too. A bit like when the pubs used to close from 3pm to 5:30pm or when the shops used to be closed all day on Sunday, everyone was scared that turning over some law from the war time era would screw up the whole country but 5 minutes after it changed no-one could ever think of going back to the way it was.

No longer relevant, change the ruling, introduce more competition to bring down the extortionate prices and move on!
 

Dante

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The British couldn't even cope with a late afternoon version of MOTD back when it was on ITV. We definitely like things done in a certain way. The tactics truck never stood a chance.
 

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SqueakyWeasel - that is a good point re: German attendances.
If the extra money generated by showing matches at 15:00 on a Saturday was used to reduce ticket prices, then I agree that this would be a good idea. If it is used elsewhere by the clubs then I wouldn't agree with it.
Say on average, that Utd gets £2.25m from ticket sales for each home game (75,000 * £30). Multiply by 19 home games = £42.75m. I'm sure any renegotiation of TV rights would mean at least £800m meaning that is split evenly between all PL clubs, we could reduce ticket prices to a completely nominal level - much like the Germans do.
 

Nighteyes

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What's the attendance figures for the lower league German teams though? It's the lower league attendances that is the focus of concern not the PL.
 

Phil

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Football refuses to modernise in a lot of ways, this is one of them.

As someone said, we really should take a page out of the way US sports are televised. Apart from the ad breaks every 5 seconds.
 

SqueakyWeasel

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What's the attendance figures for the lower league German teams though? It's the lower league attendances that is the focus of concern not the PL.
Figs from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

Bundesliga 13/14 13,311,145 (18 teams) av att 43,502*
Premier League 13/14 13,929810 (20 teams) av att 36,659
Championship 13/14 9,138,360 (24 teams) av att 16,555
2, Bundesliga 13/14 5,473,728 (18 teams) av att 17,888
English League 1 12/13 3,568,680 (24 teams) av att 6,465
3. Bundesliga 12/13 2,341,685 (20 teams) av att 6162

Must admit that this figure only grew this big after Germany flooded a lot of the money back into the clubs infrastructure to build bigger stadiums when they hosted the 2006 WC.

EDIT: bolder made it easier to read :eek:
 

Nighteyes

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Figs from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

Bundesliga 13/14 13,311,145 (18 teams) av att 43,502*
Premier League 13/14 13,929810 (20 teams) av att 36,659
Championship 13/14 9,138,360 (24 teams) av att 16,555
2, Bundesliga 13/14 5,473,728 (18 teams) av att 17,888
English League 1 12/13 3,568,680 (24 teams) av att 6,465
3. Bundesliga 12/13 2,341,685 (20 teams) av att 6162

Must admit that this figure only grew this big after Germany flooded a lot of the money back into the clubs infrastructure to build bigger stadiums when they hosted the 2006 WC.

EDIT: bolder made it easier to read :eek:
Well, that's fairly conclusive.
 

Getsme

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Well, that's fairly conclusive.
Not really, Germany has a population of 81 million, in comparison England has a population of 53 million. As well as football, rugby is a well attended game in England which has to be taken into consideration.
 

SqueakyWeasel

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Not really, Germany has a population of 81 million, in comparison England has a population of 53 million. As well as football, rugby is a well attended game in England which has to be taken into consideration.
Are you seriously using that to argue that things should stay as they are?

In the age where you can view or read anything on your mobile phone on the way home from work (after you've turned your heating up and transfered some money from your bank to your betting account) you are saying that it should remain against the law to show live footage of a Premier League game played at 15:00 on a Saturday until 18:00 the same day. Even though we all know we could find those games live on the internet on "illegal" streams if we wanted to???

I actually think if the internet had not made it so easy to see these games live something would have happened to change the rules LONG before now!

BTW: Germany's larger population is no-where near as sport viewing obsessed as we are in England/UK. They have Football, F1, Handball and a couple of other things but compared to us with our mania for Football, Cricket, Rugby, Horse Racing, Golf, etc they do not compare as armchair viewers … lots more actual participants though per capita!
 

Getsme

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Are you seriously using that to argue that things should stay as they are?

In the age where you can view or read anything on your mobile phone on the way home from work (after you've turned your heating up and transfered some money from your bank to your betting account) you are saying that it should remain against the law to show live footage of a Premier League game played at 15:00 on a Saturday until 18:00 the same day. Even though we all know we could find those games live on the internet on "illegal" streams if we wanted to???

I actually think if the internet had not made it so easy to see these games live something would have happened to change the rules LONG before now!

BTW: Germany's larger population is no-where near as sport viewing obsessed as we are in England/UK. They have Football, F1, Handball and a couple of other things but compared to us with our mania for Football, Cricket, Rugby, Horse Racing, Golf, etc they do not compare as armchair viewers … lots more actual participants though per capita!
Did I say it should? However it's not a fair comparison, Germany is as football mad if not more so than England, yet has a far higher population. With the exception of Russia it has the biggest population in Europe, we are talking about roughly 30 million more people live in Germany compared to England, or five times the population of the Republic of Ireland if you like. Of course attendances are going to be higher.
 

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Did I say it should? However it's not a fair comparison, Germany is as football mad if not more so than England, yet has a far higher population. With the exception of Russia it has the biggest population in Europe, we are talking about roughly 30 million more people live in Germany compared to England, or five times the population of the Republic of Ireland if you like. Of course attendances are going to be higher.
It is a fair comparison if I was asked to supply the figures as a comparison however (even if you feel they are unbalanced due to population).

I still think your "argument" attempted to fall on the anti side of things re. the overall debate rather than the pro as you would have worded your original message differently … while I agree that (blah, blah, blah) I feel these figures are misleading - which is what I reacted to.

BTW: I live in Germany and there is nowhere near the crazy-assed football, or general sport (watching) culture that we have in the UK. They are far too busy out there doing it to watch too much of it. Bayern have a fan-base in every town and village (Dortmund are catching up in a reaction to this) but other than that it is regional and very tribal. Where I live I'm the "crazy English guy who always wears shorts and watches football all the time" (I have been known to get vocal on occasion). My neighbours think that United won everything last season because I was so loud!

When the world cup was on my neighbour (a Monchengladbach season ticket holder) watched most of the games over at ours as, apart from my gf's great "cooking" he was amazed at my diverse knowledge of world football (inc. German footballers) … I do not consider myself anywhere near as immersed or passionate about all-things-football as my English friends back home.

I think that from the 2006 WC onwards there has been an increase in interest in Germany on a club level (which is what we're speaking about) but I still think we are more football obsessed, and definitely more sport obsessed in general, in the UK.

All of course IMHO no offence meant!
 

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I hope come the next rights deal that 3pm kickoffs are shown. That block has now become outdated as people tend to stream online nowadays (The Premier League may as well profit from it)

Also hope bEIN Sports come into the UK market at the expense of BT Sport
 

SqueakyWeasel

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I hope come the next rights deal that 3pm kickoffs are shown. That block has now become outdated as people tend to stream online nowadays (The Premier League may as well profit from it)

Also hope bEIN Sports come into the UK market at the expense of BT Sport
Can see more "worldwide" broadcasters coming into play as long as there is not a separate charge for each broadcaster I'd welcome the competition.

If not I'd prefer one bid for EVERY game each season to make it fair for the viewer paying this company for some games and that one for others is useless. If broadcasters choose to split it then they should man-up and agree a fee between themselves to broadcast on the same network saving the punter time and trouble and money … they'd probably win back more punters if they did this too. How many ex SKY subscribers would re-subscribe if EVERY game was live next season for ONE reasonable monthly fee?
 

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I hope come the next rights deal that 3pm kickoffs are shown. That block has now become outdated as people tend to stream online nowadays (The Premier League may as well profit from it)

Also hope bEIN Sports come into the UK market at the expense of BT Sport
BT really are making a push, wouldn't rule them out vs. Sky going forward. Their 'core' business (landline phones) will be gone in 10 years, broadband/fibre and TV is a good route out for them
 

Getsme

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It is a fair comparison if I was asked to supply the figures as a comparison however (even if you feel they are unbalanced due to population).

I still think your "argument" attempted to fall on the anti side of things re. the overall debate rather than the pro as you would have worded your original message differently … while I agree that (blah, blah, blah) I feel these figures are misleading - which is what I reacted to.

BTW: I live in Germany and there is nowhere near the crazy-assed football, or general sport (watching) culture that we have in the UK. They are far too busy out there doing it to watch too much of it. Bayern have a fan-base in every town and village (Dortmund are catching up in a reaction to this) but other than that it is regional and very tribal. Where I live I'm the "crazy English guy who always wears shorts and watches football all the time" (I have been known to get vocal on occasion). My neighbours think that United won everything last season because I was so loud!

When the world cup was on my neighbour (a Monchengladbach season ticket holder) watched most of the games over at ours as, apart from my gf's great "cooking" he was amazed at my diverse knowledge of world football (inc. German footballers) … I do not consider myself anywhere near as immersed or passionate about all-things-football as my English friends back home.

I think that from the 2006 WC onwards there has been an increase in interest in Germany on a club level (which is what we're speaking about) but I still think we are more football obsessed, and definitely more sport obsessed in general, in the UK.

All of course IMHO no offence meant!
No idea why you wrote all that to be fair.
If you can't see that having an extra 30 million people living in England would increase the average attendance at football matches, regardless of the 3pm rule, then we live in different worlds.
 

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They should televise every game and make it available on one channel or through one subscription (like an online streaming pass for a particular team).
That's what my TV station offers.

Definitely the best way to go is to follow the NFL and the NBA and have a game pass on offer online. For the consumer that is. The PL makes way too much money for that to happen. It gets more expensive every year.

TV stations that hold rights to the PL could offer a streaming subscription within their country. They sort of do that in Denmark at least.
 

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I hope come the next rights deal that 3pm kickoffs are shown. That block has now become outdated as people tend to stream online nowadays (The Premier League may as well profit from it)

Also hope bEIN Sports come into the UK market at the expense of BT Sport
BT are here to stay as shown by them getting exclusive CL rights. There'll still be more competition at the next rights auction for the Premier League and ultimately it'll be at the consumer's cost as we'll end up having to pay more just to view the same amount of content/slightly more.
 

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No idea why you wrote all that to be fair.
If you can't see that having an extra 30 million people living in England would increase the average attendance at football matches, regardless of the 3pm rule, then we live in different worlds.
… and I wrote in the first line that I was specifically asked to supply them and I even admitted "…they are unbalanced due to population"
The rest was answering your comment that Germany was more football obsessed then England (which I disagree with from personal experience spending a lot of time in both countries).
 

Getsme

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BT are here to stay as shown by them getting exclusive CL rights. There'll still be more competition at the next rights auction for the Premier League and ultimately it'll be at the consumer's cost as we'll end up having to pay more just to view the same amount of content/slightly more.
BT have a lot more money than Sky to play with as well, they could wipe Sky out of it if they wanted to. Obviously it will be a long time before that happens, even if it does happens, as you say, until then we will all be out even more money with costs only going one way.