Genuine question here, but do you actually realise that there's full matches from Pele's era on Youtube/Dailymotion etc?
Was Pele Overrated?
- Thread starter Zeki Zico
- Start date
Questioning Pele's greatness is like questioning Viagra's success.
Don't know about football, but I hear he makes an amazing sandwich.
As said, comparing goalscoring records is retarded.
The "bottom" has improved, you still expect the same teams to advance through the knockout stages. Last finals? Germany vs. Argentina (same as 1990 and 1986), Spain vs. Netherlands (Spain were perennial tourno favourites, they just grew a pair), Italy vs. France, Brazil vs. Germany, Brazil vs. France...
Yeah, pick Marcos Rojo as the standout and compare him to a player who didn't play in 1986. Well done.
Scoring or assisting in the quarters/semis/final would be a good start.
More group games against cannon fodder make feck all difference. If anything, they give you the opportunity to make adjustments early on. In the ones with less teams any screw up was costly.
Don't think Argentina have ever had an easier group and route to a final than Bosnia/Nigeria/Iran and then Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands. Only team they aren't expected to beat there is Netherlands, and they didn't.
You seem to be describing yourself here.
Messi has won nothing with Argentina. I would suggest you go watch some Maradona World Cup youtubes, it's easy to see the chasm between their relative performances.
I don't know what happened to you to make you like this, but it has to have been quite bad.
YAWN mate. Maybe think about starting following baseball instead or something.
Cause I'm pointing out the obvious? Ok, messi in argentina colours, how good do you think he has been?
He was world class in escape to victory
The video evidence does suggest he was pretty handy and he scored a few. And he won 3 WCs was it? And it's commonly accepted he was Brazil's main man in their much revered 1970 team.
So, probably not, in the accepted sense of being vaguely fair about these things.
It was possibly a bit easier to be THE big star back then, less media and so on, but that's a slightly different question, innit?
So, probably not, in the accepted sense of being vaguely fair about these things.
It was possibly a bit easier to be THE big star back then, less media and so on, but that's a slightly different question, innit?
He can't be in god mode all the freaking time. There's a limit to these laughable expectations. This season he's been playmaker, and goalscorer extraordinaire.
The bolder bit is hilarious though. Messi, only the best because he gets a "free ride" to run at defenders.
Adsense Wenger called him the greatest footballer of all time. Even saf who is a bit biased against him said he has to be in that conversation of greatest ever. Beckenbauer just called him "God-like". Yet Rooneylegend from redcafe clearly is not impressed.
Maradona dragged an outside 5 league club and made them champions. He did that in the most defensive and meanest leagues the world had ever seen and while playing high. To put things into better context, Messi faces the likes of Varane and Pepe once in a while. Maradona used to face players like Scirea, Baresi and Gentile in a ruthless football world were the ends used to justify the means (just watch how Gentile and the Butcher of Bilbao used to play)
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He's in god mode the majority of the time at barca but barely in god mode for argentina? Why do you think that's the case?
I am impressed, he's a fantastic footballer, no doubt about that. Best player in the world? Yes. Greatest ever? Nope. Its a game of opinions, bet you many argentines also don't feel he should be compared to maradona.
Tell me when was the last time the barca midfield were dominated? There are literally moments in barca games where he can get the ball, run at the defence 7 consecutive times, fail to do anything and then on the 8th time slip through and score a goal. In a matter of 20 or so mins. No other superstar in the modern era has had that privilege. Neither does he when he plays for argentina hence he doesn't look a footballer of that level.
So did Diego Costa, to be fair. I am not belittling Maradona, but it isn't that it has never happened that a not that great club outperforming better teams.
Are you seriously comparing Chelsea with Napoli or the likes of Smalling with Baresi?
How has a thread about Pele become a Maradona vs Messi one. Not to mention same old absurd stuff people say to underrate Messi.
Did Maradona play vs Baresi and Scirea every weekend?
If you weren't aware, Diego Costa happened to play for Atletico Madrid up until last summer and helped them win La Liga and reach a Champions League final.
Why is watching full games on youtube any different to watching full games live on tv? I'd say a lot of Pele's magic is lost because there's barely any footage available of him destroying smaller teams for fun in the league, like we see it from Messi every week in full length. Many of Pele's big games are available in full though, it's not a selective selection of his best games to hype him, which ignores his bad games. It's a selection of big games and he happens to be absolutely fantastic in most of them.
Ah ok, I got a blonde moment for a sec.
Would you rate the defenses Maradona played against at the same levels faced by Maradona?
Probably. The great thing about those Italian defenders of the past was that they were all also capable shapeshifters and could follow Maradona around to play against him in every game.
Messi played in some CL games too...
Its the same old stuff - where would he be without Iniesta and Xavi despite the fact there's a lot more to his game than running at the defenses 7 or 8 times.
The weekend before this one. Valencia completely dominated them. Messi dropped deep to help out he struggling midfield and was the only reason they had semblance of control in the game. He also created a goal and scored another to help them to crucial 2-0 win.
It was the golden era of the Italian defenses and the famous catenacchio which was the most difficult system to crack. There was plenty of quality defenses around and many referees who were willing to close an eye or two just to let the game 'flow'
Because you can't judge a footballer of a selection of matches. You can't compare someone you watch week in week out to anothe you see a handful of games of.
No, same one that is SIXTH in all time WC goals for Argentina (behind Maradona), with a paltry 5 goals in 3 World Cups. The same "GOAT" that is tied for 59th in terms of WC goals scored. Playing for one of the strongest Argentinians teams, against teams like: Bosnia, Iran, Nigeria, Switzerland, South Korea, Greece, Mexico, Serbia, Ivory Coast. And he only managed to score FIVE goals against that lot? Argentina has had one of the easiest knockout group stages since Messi started featuring in the WC, and it's FIVE. Goals. Only. With teammates like Aguero and Di Maria, only..five...goals...in 3 World Cups...against the easiest group stages... I keep repeating this message, because maybe finally it will start to stick - Messi is dog poop in the World Cup, the largest and most important stage in football. He scores a ton of goals in the strongest sides of all time, against far weaker teams.
Actually never mind, Adidas, EA Sports and FIFA don't want you to care about that. Adidas, EA Sports and FIFA would like you to remember, he is the highest ever goal-scorer for Argentina in internationals!!!!! Just take a look at his impressive hat-trick over fierce rivals Guatemala and his splendid goals against top competition like Slovenia, Bolivia, Costa Rica, Hungary, Paraguay, Peru. Yeah he sort of disappears on the most important stage of them all, you know, the World Cup finals, but let's brush that under the rug because afterall the WC is meaningless and does not matter, even though the whole world watches it and every footballer's dream since they are a boy is to play in the World Cup. Just remember, internationals and club duty is far more important and players surely care more about scoring hat-tricks against Guatemala and Villareal, than against Germany in the knock-out stages of the WC. If you believe any of this junk, I know several used car salesmen I would love to introduce you to.
Messi is a great player no doubt, probably the best of his generation. But don't kid yourself, his record for Argentina is really poor when you compare it to his record for Barca.
The major sponsors and commercial interests of modern football want you to believe the hype. That what we are watching is something special and different. Different than a decade ago when we had Ronaldo Lima, Ronaldinho, Henry, Zidane, et al playing. There's money to be made, and the sponsors make money by selling the newest and the latest. It's no wonder that the "surge" in popularity for CR7 and Messi coincided precisely with the rise of the EA Sports, Youtube and other social media platforms. Flash and presentation does not a GOAT make.
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Yeah but in your eyes everything was better then. You were probably a good poster back then too
First Baresi and now Pele. If anyone can stand up to modern scrutiny it is these two.
Pele was physically way ahead of his time, his physique would put many modern day greats to shame.. he was athletic, technically as complete as you can get as an attacker.. and mentally super tough - scored in all the big games and yes having good team mates help but he was the leading star in a team full of galacticos which demonstrates just how above the rest he really was.
At Santos, he played against the best European teams and destroyed them so that point you made is dismantled already.
For me the 1970 Pele is not him at his best, yet even then he produces moments like the shot from the halfway line and the dummy around the goalkeeper.. really unique moments which Messi and Ronaldo would struggle to pull out the bag. He had a flair and completeness neither of those two could touch.
In 1958, he was an absolute joy to watch.. a proper livewire and his goals in the final, one where he controls it and flicks it over a oncoming defender than volleys it in.. thats utter brilliance and something I have never seen Ronaldo or Messi do in a big game. He was a magical footballer and had that inventiveness these two modern giants don't have in their locker.
He became even quicker and more robust from 58-66, thats him at his peak but sadly he kept getting injured in world cups but there is still a game where he plays with his weaker foot all game because he was injured and he's still bossing the game.
I have watched plenty of full matches of Pele and whilst he's not my favourite footballer, he's undeniably the most penetrative attacker I have ever seen and someone who would dominate any era due to his sheer talent and physicality. Even if you compare him to brazillian Ronaldo, there is an extra level of class and composure in Pele game. He is more aware of his team mates, a better passer, more two footed, better first touch and more close control.
Simply, the greatest forward and the most complete of all time.
Pele was physically way ahead of his time, his physique would put many modern day greats to shame.. he was athletic, technically as complete as you can get as an attacker.. and mentally super tough - scored in all the big games and yes having good team mates help but he was the leading star in a team full of galacticos which demonstrates just how above the rest he really was.
At Santos, he played against the best European teams and destroyed them so that point you made is dismantled already.
For me the 1970 Pele is not him at his best, yet even then he produces moments like the shot from the halfway line and the dummy around the goalkeeper.. really unique moments which Messi and Ronaldo would struggle to pull out the bag. He had a flair and completeness neither of those two could touch.
In 1958, he was an absolute joy to watch.. a proper livewire and his goals in the final, one where he controls it and flicks it over a oncoming defender than volleys it in.. thats utter brilliance and something I have never seen Ronaldo or Messi do in a big game. He was a magical footballer and had that inventiveness these two modern giants don't have in their locker.
He became even quicker and more robust from 58-66, thats him at his peak but sadly he kept getting injured in world cups but there is still a game where he plays with his weaker foot all game because he was injured and he's still bossing the game.
I have watched plenty of full matches of Pele and whilst he's not my favourite footballer, he's undeniably the most penetrative attacker I have ever seen and someone who would dominate any era due to his sheer talent and physicality. Even if you compare him to brazillian Ronaldo, there is an extra level of class and composure in Pele game. He is more aware of his team mates, a better passer, more two footed, better first touch and more close control.
Simply, the greatest forward and the most complete of all time.
The underlined sentence is obviously complete bollocks.
Not really. Some of the things defenders were allowed to do to stop players from scoring was disgraceful. As much as I rated the likes of Baresi and Scirea, I used to hate the likes of Gentile and Kohler who were just thugs distinguished as players. No wonder why so many creative players ended up mindfecked or saw their career cut short during that era.Yeah but in your eyes everything was better then. You were probably a good poster back then too
Having said that, there's no denying that scoring goals was much difficult back then than it is now. It was the golden era of defenses, managers were pretty defensive minded themselves and players had to either adapt to rigid systems being used or end up being kicked out of the team. Great players like Gazza, Zola, Di Canio and Vialli were shown the door while quality strikers like Rush and Bergkamp left the Serie A as failures. That was the situation the Serie A was back in the day.
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Funny thread. I'm not sure what is worse, belittling a great of the past or a great of the present.
Raees are you about 90 years old?
From what I remember of the Utd v Dortmund CL Semi Final, Kohler was also one of the jammiest defenders ever to put on a shirt at any level.
So? What's the supposed to mean? They do the same thing with the same amount of dominance in the CL games as they do in la liga games.
What's truly special about the barca midfield is they did it to every club and still do it to teams not named madrid(especially since the modric signing), atletico and bayern munich.
Did you catch our final vs barca in '11, where they wiped the floor with our old winger/carrick combo?
The CL is currently a vastly overrated competition. Its currently a 3 club competition and whenever a new competitor comes along they are torn apart.
So Barca's midfield comes, destroys other teams midfield and Messi has a free run at the opposing goal every time? Is that what you're saying? Cause if that's true Messi is not all that really..
I'd understand that, if we were talking about a player whose overall career didn't fit to the highlight games. But if every report you can find, every statistic you can come up with and every quote from his opponents, back it up? Why should I start to doubt, that what I've seen from him against the best European club sides and the best nationalteams is actually the exceptional standard he performed on regularly? It makes no sense.
You don't even have to give him the benefit of the doubt, it's simply impossible to create doubt. You don't find anything viable to discredit him. If you want to doubt him, all you can do is say "you can't prove it unless you've seen him every week". If someone only saw Messi in El Clasicos, the World Cup and CL semifinals and finals, but didn't watch him regularly in the league, can't he have an opinion about his quality? Does everyone on here really have to watch 20 games a year from Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez, Aguero, Rooney, Robben, Ibrahimovic, Vidal, Hazard, Reus? You guys really have to watch a shitload of football every week to form creditable opinions then.
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No, it's complete bollocks if you think Bosnia, Iran or Nigeria had a strong squad for the World Cup. It's complete bollocks if you think that either of those teams are in any way comparable to Argentina or the sides that Messi regularly plays against in La Liga or the Champions League. Yet he has only scored FIVE GOALS EVER against teams like Bosnia and Iran and Serbia, and he's had 3 tries at the World Cup finals.
If I'm going to be considered the greatest of all time, I'd better be banging in 5 goals against Bosnia. Heck, RVP and Robben both managed to score two each against a very strong Spanish side in a single game. Messi can only manage 5 in 3 WCs? Was it bad luck? Injury? Out of form? Right....3 WCs in a row, excuses after excuses.But yeah, it's funny ever single Messi fan-boi or apologist I've met always says the same things:
1) Argentina is a crap team, despite having a roster of players like Aguero and Di Maria, not to mention the other very strong supporting players
2) Bosnia and Nigeria are acutally quite good! Don't underestimate the mighty Swiss either..
3) Barca isn't that dominant and La Liga is actually very compettive!
4) CL group stages are tough and no joke for Barca!
5) Adidas and EA Sports are not spending millions each year in marketing to convince everyone that Messi is the GOAT. That there is no commercial agenda.
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Luckily Messi still has time to have a great WC and if that happens I wonder what will his critics come up with then.
Probably - yeah but he had a great team just like in Barcelona or sthing.
Probably - yeah but he had a great team just like in Barcelona or sthing.
How many goals he should have scored vs Bosnia, Iran or Nigeria?No, it's complete bollocks if you think Bosnia, Iran or Nigeria had a strong squad for the World Cup. It's complete bollocks if you think that either of those teams are in any way comparable to Argentina or the sides that Messi regularly plays against in La Liga or the Champions League. Yet he has only scored FIVE GOALS EVER against teams like Bosnia and Iran and Serbia, and he's had 3 tries at the World Cup finals.
10?
Absolutely, you really do. Not every week but a decent amount I'd imagine. You can see greatness in a handful of games but I don't think you can properly analyse and judge with any amount of merit, let alone compare.
For example, I watch ibrahimovic only in the champions league. Hence, I don't have a properly formed opinion on him, unlike the English pundits who think he's shit because of a handful of games.
I understand where you're coming from re
ele where the handful of games you see only backup the overwhelming evidence. But in that case, the majority of the weight is of that "evidence" or "perception", and the games are just a tools to reaffirm. I stress on this when it comes to comparing in particular. Seeing Di Maria week in week out and seeing another winger 5 times ever, is no basis of comparison. I can judge the latters naturaL talent or his performances in those games but no make a real and credible comparison.
For those joining the thread late...
Pele might be overrated, Maradona was bang average and Messi is not all that. More news as we get it.
Pele might be overrated, Maradona was bang average and Messi is not all that. More news as we get it.