Was the Casemiro signing a mistake?

Andrew Richmond

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It wasn’t good business. Was never going to be.

can only hope there is a cashed up Saudi club prepared to take him off our hands.
 

Pughnichi

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Hindsight yes…a great first season with most salivating that it’s great to finally have a ‘proper’ midfielder. Only for it to apparently come crashing down with a (so far) poor second season.

We need to stop doing this. Spending big on an ageing player…which basically funds the other club to go and get the younger replacement. It should be us spending the money on that younger player.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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I think he was overplayed last season and this season, aside from his red cards suspensions, he was never rested until he got injured now.

This season he's been terrible, hopefully when he returns, he can recapture his good form from last season, but we can't have him solo the midfield on his own again.
 

Juicy Juiced

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Ferguson would have that happy chewing gum smile on the sideline with him and yet we are here talking is Casemiro shit player.
We would ruin Messi.
 

Zen86

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Great player in his prime but he’s well past that and on a big contract. He rolled back the years for a spell last season, but this really wasn’t going to go any other way. Classic United.
 

Yakuza_devils

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Many clubs already stopped signing player near/over 30 let alone for big money and wages. Man Utd never learn. Good thing is Arnold and Murtough are leaving soon. We need a total revamp of the football structure. Just putting Murtough there and called him a DOF doesn't cut it. He has zero experience and is Glazers stooges.
 

Mylock

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Casamiro was not a mistake, he needs players with legs around him, lots of mobility, players just like Mainoo. I believe eth plan was to play both , only it to be ruined by injuries.
 

Gause

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not a mistake in a sense that I can't imagine how we would've finished last season without him.
 

Dans

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He was great for us last year, if not actually great himself, he was still something we needed. This year, he's off form. But Rashford on similar money is far worse. Was Rashford's contract extension also a mistake?

What we cannot judge is Casemiro's influence on others, for example Mainoo. Has he played a role in the development of Mainoo? If he has, he may turn out to be a bargain!
 

Castia

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Long term? 100% mistake

He was great last season in spells but at 70m and approaching 32 it will ultimately be a bad deal.

We should cash in from Saudi if given the chance.
 

Gordon Godot

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He was great for us last year, if not actually great himself, he was still something we needed. This year, he's off form. But Rashford on similar money is far worse. Was Rashford's contract extension also a mistake?

What we cannot judge is Casemiro's influence on others, for example Mainoo. Has he played a role in the development of Mainoo? If he has, he may turn out to be a bargain!
No, this is the classic short term mentality. Already getting over the hill when signed, RM delighted to offload for silly money. Yes had some good games last season but also some poor ones, poor and now injured this year. Money should have spent on a top class player at prime or young talent.
 

Dominos

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Casamiro was not a mistake, he needs players with legs around him, lots of mobility, players just like Mainoo. I believe eth plan was to play both , only it to be ruined by injuries.
We really need to get out of this mentality of purposely signing players with major weaknesses that we have to compensate for. Why would you sign a midfielder who's a massive physical decline and then try to compensate for that around him, when you can just sign players in their physical prime. This is what lead us starting Giggs and Scholes until they were 40 years old rather than just signing 2 elite midfielders in their prime like any other top club would do.

We had this when we decided to sign Maguire who could get out-paced by a tortoise and then pretended it wouldn't be an issue because we'll just compensate for the fact one of our centre backs can't run. Turns out it's not that easy to compensate for.
 

Josh 76

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Really, was RVP a success? Great 1st season, AWOL 2nd, then loan out on 3rd.

Only merit is that we paid a lot less compared with Casemiro.

Only Eriksen, Ibra, Evans can be considered success, because we paid zil upfront except for wages.
Any player brought, that is the top scorer and wins you the league, is a success. Even if it is for 1 season only.
 

altodevil

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Really, was RVP a success? Great 1st season, AWOL 2nd, then loan out on 3rd.

Only merit is that we paid a lot less compared with Casemiro.

Only Eriksen, Ibra, Evans can be considered success, because we paid zil upfront except for wages.
What?
 

Maticmaker

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Casemiro and Varane signings were at best 2-3 years, looks like we will only get one. Think both players are thinking they made a mistake as well. The United name drew them, but the reality was not what they expected.

Modern football, especially in the EPL is a young mans (18 to mid/late 20's) game as Garnacho and Mainoo are showing; 28-30 year old is peak now, 30+ downhill. Occasionally a really 'old head' can survive if he's surrounded by youngsters who can/will do the hard running.
 

DutchSerb

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Casemiro and Varane signings were at best 2-3 years, looks like we will only get one. Think both players are thinking they made a mistake as well. The United name drew them, but the reality was not what they expected.

Modern football, especially in the EPL is a young mans (18 to mid/late 20's) game as Garnacho and Mainoo are showing; 28-30 year old is peak now, 30+ downhill. Occasionally a really 'old head' can survive if he's surrounded by youngsters who can/will do the hard running.
I sort of disagree with the 30+ downhill part, plenty of players over 30 are still playing well or even doing great. If you want longevity you need to take measures though and Casemiro coming in overweight and unfit after a summer break tells me he doesn't take it as seriously as those others. In Varane's case he already checked out mentally, gives no effort.
 

Tom Cato

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Every single player the club has signed since Alex Ferguson retired has been a mistake.
Going by Casemiro used as an example, I challenge you to voice a good reason why anyone else has been a success.
 

DutchSerb

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We were always going to pay for immediate results and not the long game. We all knew Madrid fleeced us for that price the club was desperate and most of us were okay with it. But to go from one of our best, if not our best player to the absolute abomination he is now over just one summer is crazy. I don't think anyone saw a decline this bad coming so rapidly.
 

Maticmaker

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I sort of disagree with the 30+ downhill part, plenty of players over 30 are still playing well or even doing great. If you want longevity you need to take measures though and Casemiro coming in overweight and unfit after a summer break tells me he doesn't take it as seriously as those others. In Varane's case he already checked out mentally, gives no effort.
Yes, but most are either keepers or playing with 'young legs' around them to keep them effective, we are seeing it now that most of the 30+ players will be heading to Seria A or Saudi, sooner rather than later. The pace of the EPL game now is for 90+ mins. The 'pressing' and such like tactics, demand endless running to have any real effect, if mid fielders and full backs get involved, they have to be able to sprint back, time and again if the press fails, 30+ year old's cannot do it over 90 mins, even if they have a mind to.

Yesterday Mainoo as a DM showed how quickly he got about the field and the difference he made, and even he was subbed later on. Yes, there will always be the odd player who can keep pace at 30+, but its not about skill it's about speed, stamina and mental strength combined, especially in the later stages of a game.

In the not-too-distant future the age range 18-28, i.e. a 10-year period will be increasingly the norm, allowing of course for the toll that injuries might take. What we might see increasingly in future is youngsters on from the get-go, after 60 mins they start getting replaced by the 30+ players, who are now only playing for 30 mins max, also they have the mind set to see games out.

It really is a young man's game now!
 
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Rojofiam

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Yes, because we lost out on Rice as a result.

I don't care about the high transfer fee, he helped us out a lot last season and we can potentially recoup at least half of it if a Saudi club comes in for him.
 

padzilla

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The length of the contract will be a mistake if he continues his post-February poor form for the next four years - that's for sure.
 

flameinthesun

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Looking back it was a poor signing all things considered however we shot ourselves in the foot by chasing de jong all summer and seemingly not having a list of De Jong type players to fall back on. A bit similar to the Varane signing only way more expensive.

His performances were good but not exceptional based on his pedigree. The cost and length of contract at his age did not match the performances/impact on the team. Even his play style didn't seem to gel with what Ten Hag wanted to play. We spent a summer chasing De Jong only to then turn to a player who is completely different to him. These signings feel lazy, as if he came available and we decided to buy him because he was an easy option.

I'd prefer us to move away from these types of signings, they pretty much always never fully work out.
 

the_cliff

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I don't think it was a mistake tbh. Let's face it we wouldn't have even got UCL football last season without him. It was a short term signing but one of those rare ones that actually worked out for us as I'm sure we'll be able to get 30-40m back for him from Saudi in the near future. That, paired with the UCL money and the experience he can give to our young players (Hannibal, Mainoo) I think the transfer was a positive one.

People are just caught in the moment, he's still a good player and will contribute this season when coming back from injury. He hasn't had a run of games to get him into last seasons form yet but that will come.
 

SAFMUTD

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Really, was RVP a success? Great 1st season, AWOL 2nd, then loan out on 3rd.

Only merit is that we paid a lot less compared with Casemiro.

Only Eriksen, Ibra, Evans can be considered success, because we paid zil upfront except for wages.
We wouldn't have won the title that year without RVP. That year alone he was so great that it makes him a successful transfer, also we didn't pay that much for him.
 

RedStarUnited

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Casemiro and Varane signings were at best 2-3 years, looks like we will only get one. Think both players are thinking they made a mistake as well. The United name drew them, but the reality was not what they expected.

Modern football, especially in the EPL is a young mans (18 to mid/late 20's) game as Garnacho and Mainoo are showing; 28-30 year old is peak now, 30+ downhill. Occasionally a really 'old head' can survive if he's surrounded by youngsters who can/will do the hard running.
KDB is 32 and played with 32 year old Gundogan last year in midfield....
 

Fortitude

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The most incredible thing about this thread is the amount of you who have written him off.

Reminds me of the posts about Son last year saying his legs had gone and he'd never be back to what he was.
 

lex talionis

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Others have made the point but it’s worth repeating: we would have been completely fukked last year without Casemiro.

A reasonable rebuttal to that point is that we could have brought in someone else at CDM…but who?
 

poleglass red

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Only way we sell him in Jan is if we brought someone in to replace him which I don't see happening, so I'd imagine he's here until end of the season. He came back unfit from preseason, playing unfit players increases risk to injury. Let him recover, let him work his way back to fitness. He could be a useful asset if he gets back his form he showed in the middle part of last season. His experience could be good for players such as Mainoo. I definitely would be looking at offloading him in the summer though, this was a very shortsighted purchase
 

the_cliff

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Others have made the point but it’s worth repeating: we would have been completely fukked last year without Casemiro.

A reasonable rebuttal to that point is that we could have brought in someone else at CDM…but who?
Exactly, we aren't winning a trophy or finishing top 4 without him.

Your second point is not a reasonable rebuttal as the question is about Casemiro and was the Casemiro signing worth it, we need to look at how Casemiro has played for us so far compared to where we'd be without him. If that was a reasonable rebuttal there's no point criticising any transfer as we always could have gotten someone else instead.

The problem with those against the Casemiro transfer is that they are basing their arguments over assumptions and futuristic scenarios that still haven't happened and are choosing to ignore his performances for us last season. They're assuming 1: Casemiro is finished as a footballer and will not positively impact our team when back from injury and 2: That we're going to be stuck with him as a bench player until the end of his contract.

I disagree with both assumptions, literally this time last year he was Brazils best player at the world cup and it's bloody Casemiro Saudi teams will be all over him when he does choose to leave.
 

DWelbz19

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Put him beside Mainoo (or someone like Mainoo - i.e. an actual central midfielder with legs who can retain the football) and he'll look a lot better.

We have an ageing midfielder whose recovery pace isn't particularly great and who isn't particularly careful on the ball and whenever we play him it's been with two number no.10s.

I think Casemiro is clearly on the way down, but we can make that a very gradual decline instead of a steep fall if we actually make reasonable adjustments for his limitations.
 

Gordon Godot

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Put him beside Mainoo (or someone like Mainoo - i.e. an actual central midfielder with legs who can retain the football) and he'll look a lot better.

We have an ageing midfielder whose recovery pace isn't particularly great and who isn't particularly careful on the ball and whenever we play him it's been with two number no.10s.

I think Casemiro is clearly on the way down, but we can make that a very gradual decline instead of a steep fall if we actually make reasonable adjustments for his limitations.
But that in turn raises the question why we bought him. Having desperately chased FDJ all summer, who was never coming, the only decent CM we could find was an aging player that RM wanted rid of. Really? With a player like Mainoo its not clear why you need someone as limited as Casemiro, whose passing is hit and miss and legs have gone.
 

Fortitude

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Put him beside Mainoo (or someone like Mainoo - i.e. an actual central midfielder with legs who can retain the football) and he'll look a lot better.

We have an ageing midfielder whose recovery pace isn't particularly great and who isn't particularly careful on the ball and whenever we play him it's been with two number no.10s.

I think Casemiro is clearly on the way down, but we can make that a very gradual decline instead of a steep fall if we actually make reasonable adjustments for his limitations.
What is severely lacking in these thread is the acknowledgement that many exceptional players also change their style of play and figure out how to work around ageing. Typically, players have 3 phases to a career: excitable youth; peak years; and the wind down before retirement, there's very few who exit the game how they entered or peaked in it and that doesn't mean they nosedived at the end as most have the self-awareness to get out whilst they are on top.

Even if Casemiro were on a certain slide, there's nothing to say he wouldn't learn how to work around it, where this thread is mostly binary 1's and 0's, which is not how things go for the majority of players.

First and foremost, not having a stupid structure in midfield is beneficial to everyone, not just Casemiro. If we want to play with two #10's they have to be hybrid #8's who are extremely comfortable in midfield and being connective deeper and after that, having the backline who support the #6 and the inversion besides that who slot in to cover spaces down outer-middle of the pitch. None of that was in evidence when Casemiro had to run about doing too much work and abandoning all the principles by which he made his name. It's actually crazy that the majority don't factor that into the assessment of why this once composed and calculated midfielder was suddenly looking rather amateurish and shell-shocked with acres of space all around him and zero support.

A solid system and reading of play is a massive factor in controlling midfield; these days, the lose men who break free of that minefield to run at a backline are isolated and far away from goal, faced with pacey CB's and inverted fullbacks who will immediately pressure them. Until we have that, blaming a #6 makes little sense.

As you've mentioned, Casemiro-Mainoo is the pairing I think many are eager to see, but I wonder whether that two #10's will be put to pasture and a double pivot utilised or even an #6, #8, #10 set up. I'd expect a massive upgrade in a midfield consisting of the aforementioned two plus someone ahead of them. In Mainoo, Casemiro would finally have a worthy partner by which he could be properly assessed.
 

Borys

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Yes, because we lost out on Rice as a result.

I don't care about the high transfer fee, he helped us out a lot last season and we can potentially recoup at least half of it if a Saudi club comes in for him.
The club probably saw buying Rice as bigger risk than buying 30yo Casemiro. It was a short sighted decision that was quite risky.
However, who saw THAT decline and injury record coming? It's just terrible luck again.

I stil think this wasn't a mistake and we should be able to recoup some decent money for him.
 

bosnian_red

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The club probably saw buying Rice as bigger risk than buying 30yo Casemiro. It was a short sighted decision that was quite risky.
However, who saw THAT decline and injury record coming? It's just terrible luck again.

I stil think this wasn't a mistake and we should be able to recoup some decent money for him.
I still don't think he's actually declined that much. Some bad form and injuries during a period of nightmare issues for the club, and a system that didn't help him. Put him in next to Mainoo now and I think he looks a lot better. He can still be a quality player, just gotta partner him with someone more energetic in there.