Was the Milan team from 03-07 overrated?

Theafonis

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@Theonas mentioned it in the other thread so I thought this deserved its own thread.

Despite the number of world class players they boasted, they hardly achieved many honors. Of course they went to 3 Champions League finals in 4 years but I feel their domestic campaign perhaps hurts their status as a great side. What do other people think? Numerous sides were able to marry domestic success with European success; I don't think Milan deserve any slack for failed domestic campaigns.
 
I wasn't aware they were really rated that highly. For the very reason you've given. Certainly not a patch on their teams of a decade before.
 
Depends on how highly they're rated.
fwiw I thought they were a brilliant side.
 
I think the side on paper looks better than they actually were with hindsight. They could be a bloody good side when they wanted to be though.
 
Theafonis said:
@Theonas mentioned it in the other thread so I thought this deserved its own thread.

Despite the number of world class players they boasted, they hardly achieved many honors. Of course they went to 3 Champions League finals in 4 years but I feel their domestic campaign perhaps hurts their status as a great side. What do other people think? Numerous sides were able to marry domestic success with European success; I don't think Milan deserve any slack for failed domestic campaigns.
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I think they generally care more about CL than the league, rightly or wrongly.
 
No. The main reason they didn't win domestically was because Juventus were fixing matches.

They were a world class team. Every player in their line up was legendary.
 
Theafonis said:
@Theonas mentioned it in the other thread so I thought this deserved its own thread.

Despite the number of world class players they boasted, they hardly achieved many honors. Of course they went to 3 Champions League finals in 4 years but I feel their domestic campaign perhaps hurts their status as a great side. What do other people think? Numerous sides were able to marry domestic success with European success; I don't think Milan deserve any slack for failed domestic campaigns.
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I was going to start one to discuss the broader subject of what constitutes a great side but I feel this thread might go to that direction anyway so cheers for that!

The most common argument about this especially from Italian friends, is that Berlusconi did not care about Serie A. His idea was always that status and prestige are all about dominating Europe and winning the CL. Therefore, every manager was under no illusion for as to what prioritize when it comes to the latter stages of the season. As I said in another thread, this might mean that they were potentially a great side but it is simply unjust to put them on the same category as teams that did both. As a side note, I feel the same about Real Madrid whose last 5 CL wins came in years where they did not win their league title, and again, how can any of those teams be considered at the same level as us 2006-09, Juventus late '90s, the late Bayern side, Milan early '90s or even more crazily, Barcelona of the past decade.
 
They were incredibly consistent in Europe. Deportivo debacle aside, they made it to 4 semifinals, 3 finals, and won 2 of those.

The best sides can challenge in both fronts, and Milan never did that. So yes, to the OP's question.

No coincidence that in 2007, the final was comprised of 2 sides nowhere near contention in their domestic leagues. They both beat teams trying to compete on both fronts. We staggered over the finish line that season .
 
They looked better on paper than they were because a few of them were a bit past their best. A back four of Cafu-Stam-Nesta-Maldini looks like it could pass for an all-time XI, and while they all aged very gracefully, only Nesta was truly in his prime at that point.

Still a bloody good side.
 
Juventus over that period were better but, they were probably the most exciting of that era. Especially with how defensive top teams of those years were.
 
Jaybomb said:
No. The main reason they didn't win domestically was because Juventus were fixing matches.

They were a world class team. Every player in their line up was legendary.
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And Milan weren't?

Pretty sure they got punished too.
 
Jaybomb said:
No. The main reason they didn't win domestically was because Juventus were fixing matches.

They were a world class team. Every player in their line up was legendary.
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To answer this i would have to go into the details of calciopoli and the general political state of italian football in those years, and i can't be bothered to do that now

I'll just say this, without all the corruption, milan win the league in 2004/05 at a canter(as they did the season before). 2005/06 they were heavily affected by istanbul(finished on 88 points, so probably would have won anyway). First half of the season they were just not right mentally. 2006/07 they were past it and the CL was the only trophy they cared about, and they were dragged by Kaka
 
Jaybomb said:
No. The main reason they didn't win domestically was because Juventus were fixing matches.

They were a world class team. Every player in their line up was legendary.
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firstly there was no match fixing ever proven.

Secondly Milan were involved in the same scandal
 
Bojan11 said:
And Milan weren't?

Pretty sure they got punished too.
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They did indeed, of course it wasn't the relegation punishment dished out to other clubs but I think it was a fairly hefty point deduction iirc.
 
Anyone who fecks up a 3-0 lead in a CL final has some problems.
 
Berlusconi had political reasons to care more for the CL and international appeal than the domestic league, that's why AC Milan was stronger abroad. As for calciopoli and Juve fixing matches, you English have a long history of coups and heads rolling, we Italians have defamation and character assassination instead, facts becoming irrelevant when power disputes escalate. And Juve was always greedy domestically, as now. Just a week ago a cop and a barrister claiming Andrea Agnelli was involved with ultras and ndrangheta for game tickets admitted publicly it was deliberate fake news, here in Italian but you can translate http://www.ilfoglio.it/sport/2017/0...ocesso-mediatico-antimafia-rosy-bindi-129218/
 
Just a good team for their era in my opinion, nowhere near to be considered an all-time great team.
 
Actually not really fake news at all. More like Agnelli did some dealings with the ultras(to keep them happy so as not to have them cause trouble). The ultras in turn had ties to the 'ndrangheta

Agnelli and the other juventus employees were intterrogated as witnesses, there's no accusation by the ordinary justice against them

Now the sporting justice on the other hand forbids clubs from having anything to do with ultras groups, so they're in a bit of trouble there(not juventus, only Agnelli and the other 2 guys afaik)

It's mostly the result of a weak state with a weak government. The police don't have the means to prevent the ultras from starting some real s*it, which kinda puts the clubs in a situation where they have to come to terms with them

The only owner who is openly fighting the ultras is Lazio's Lotito, who has to walk around under police escort because of it...
 
giorno said:
Actually not really fake news at all. More like Agnelli did some dealings with the ultras(to keep them happy so as not to have them cause trouble). The ultras in turn had ties to the 'ndrangheta

Agnelli and the other juventus employees were intterrogated as witnesses, there's no accusation by the ordinary justice against them

Now the sporting justice on the other hand forbids clubs from having anything to do with ultras groups, so they're in a bit of trouble there(not juventus, only Agnelli and the other 2 guys afaik)

It's mostly the result of a weak state with a weak government. The police don't have the means to prevent the ultras from starting some real s*it, which kinda puts the clubs in a situation where they have to come to terms with them

The only owner who is openly fighting the ultras is Lazio's Lotito, who has to walk around under police escort because of it...
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there
was
no
contact
Agnelli
Dominello Agnelli contact no was there

it's fake, the cop and the barrister involved spent 10 hours with the court trying to justify themselves

you yourself are doing agent fake, suggesting that, implying what... the fact was simply not there

shit, basically, load of crap for the masses to regulate power disputes at the top: Juve winning too much, others' investments going tits up, the system being diminished by having too strong a dominus
 
The term overrated is honestly quite tiresome, and overrated according to whom? They are rated appropriately in general, IMO - not in the class of Sacchi or Capello's Milan, or Lippi's Juventus that left a mark in domestic and European competitions - but probably a tier below the latter. Mind, they were playing at a time when a lot of the elites of European football were in a relative state of flux (Madrid with the Galácticos downturn, Bayern not being a truly remarkable team in Hitzfeld's second stint, United transitioning to the Roonaldo era), and you could argue that Milan could take on just about any team in mid 2000s in the European Cup - so they became synonymous with the timeframe. Had a softish underbelly despite the the names because Maldini, Cafú, Stam were all past their peak and the midfield could be brittle at times. Didn't translate their European success to the league on a consistent basis in terms of winning silverware, though to even things out - Milan were more interested in matching Madrid's total of 9 European Cups, and the consistent league winners from other countries didn't win the European Cup - apart from Rijkaard's Barcelona. But all things considered, they were the iconic Italian team for that period, IMO - Sacchi/Capello's Milan in the late '80s and early '90s - Lippi's Juventus in the mid to late '90s - Ancelotti's Milan in the mid 2000s - Mourinho's Internazionale at the turn of decade - Conte/Allegri's Juventus for the current decade.
 
Which is kinda what i said. Agnelli had no direct contact with the mafia. He did have contact with the ultras for the sale of tickets(which is what is being investigated by the sporting justice), the ultras in turn are tied to the mafia, so Agnelli was asked to testify as a witness. He's not being accused of anything, he committed no crime under the law of the land. There's a chance he did commit an infraction under the FIGC laws, which is being investigated
 
Ancelotti would not give a rats about the league and all the players would be very well rested and fresh for Champions league games. It was easy for them to finish in the CL places in the league even with their reserves. They would be crazy fresh and injury free by the time the latter knock out stages of the CL arrived where as Fergie would be playing his full team a few days before a major CL game in an FA Cup tie trying to win everything you can win the greedy bugger and it sometimes cost us in the Champions League with players exhausted.

But Kaka for a few seasons was by a mile the best player in the world and he was winning games on his own for them and then you had a brick wall defense of players like Gattuso/Cafu/Nesta/Maldini so it was impossible to score against them
 
Keep in mind, the whole "CL is the only trophy we care about" mentality began from Berlusconi but trickled down at every level. Milan fans themselves weren't really bothered with the league back then
 
Do you guys reckon that Mourinho's Chelsea would have beat them if they faced off in either the 2005 or 2007 final?

I'd have backed Milan on both occasions. They simply had a winner mentality about them which made them very effective in the CL.
 
2005, milan wins. 2007, chelsea wins
 
Not overrated, no. One of the best teams of the century.
 
giorno said:
To answer this i would have to go into the details of calciopoli and the general political state of italian football in those years, and i can't be bothered to do that now

I'll just say this, without all the corruption, milan win the league in 2004/05 at a canter(as they did the season before). 2005/06 they were heavily affected by istanbul(finished on 88 points, so probably would have won anyway). First half of the season they were just not right mentally. 2006/07 they were past it and the CL was the only trophy they cared about, and they were dragged by Kaka
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All I see are excuses
 
'Overrated' is such a lazy criticism. From what I've read the OP gives no critique of the Milan team at all. Tell me why you feel this way, or don't bother.
 
During that specific time, the Champions league was probably the weakest it has been in the last 2 decades. Porto, Liverpool, Monaco, PSV, Arsenal and Villarreal were all semi finalists from 03/04 - 06/07.

The Liverpool team that lost in the finals felt like the better team during the competition than the one that won it. Same with the Milan teams in those Liverpool finals.

Barcelona get knocked out of the 1st round, then win, then get knocked out of the first round. Little consistency. English teams were dominating but only won it twice.

As for the Milan team. They did very well in Europe but only one league title whilst they got to the finals thrice. Suggests that they weren't strong enough to compete on both fronts. That makes them a really good team but not on par with Barca, Bayern and Real of recent years and Juventus currently or even us a few years later.
 
If anything, they're underrated. Los galácticos are a much more remembered side despite being less successful and having a less balanced team.

In their domestic league they definitely underachieved but were up against a really strong Juve. The sides were generally pretty evenly matched when they faced each other in Serie A (3 Milan wins, 2 Juve wins and 3 draws between 02-03 and 05-06) but Juve were more consistent in beating the weaker teams in the league. Ancelotti's Milan tended to thrive in the big games and if not for complacency against Liverpool and Deportivo, you'd probably be looking at a side that'd won four European Cups out of five in the mid-'00s.

Overall, I'd say it was a great side that was two brainfarts away from being an all-time great side.
 
Snow said:
That makes them a really good team but not on par with Barca, Bayern and Real of recent years and Juventus currently or even us a few years later.
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Not as consistent but that milan(2003/04 to 2005/06) but their ceiling was higher than juventus and as high as bayern and madrid, at least
 
Liverpool went to 2 finals in 3 years and the team were not that great. In the second final in Athens when Milan beat Liverpool 2-1 Liverpool should have won that game, They were the better team by a distance. Milan had some great players but not sure they were a great team in the true sense of the word
 
There were a great team, but the big turnarounds of Deportivo and Lpool suggest that they were far from perfect. Even against us at 2005 Roy Carroll gifted them the goal. Was it Fortune that missed our great chance? And in 2007 when we played, iirc our defense was plagued by injuries, with Rio and Neville missing and Vidic was rushed back.

I think they lacked depth and they depended on aged players, which hurt their chances for domestic success. But there is some revisionism based on the names. In facebook from time to time you will see pictures of how great milan was, even including the Beckham years, when they were a bit awful.
 
It goes to show that names on a team sheet don't necessarily make a great team.

Personally I think doing the double - league and Europe is one of the hardest things.

United have done it, Barca obviously, Inter etc. Those teams should be rate highly.

I remember that Milan side for Kaka mainly, incredible talent and the one you feared.

Gattuso, Seedorf, Pirlo etc were great but I never feared that team overall.

Very good team but not an all time great (if only for Istanbul).
 
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