On the evidence of the video (and my memory of other games from '58) you link he doesn't actually provide that much in attack. Certainly more than Djalma but nothing like Roberto Carlos. He gets forward around three times in the whole game. At club level from what I have read he was much more attacking, a bit like Marzolini although the latter was more defensive in '66 than Nilton in '58 (assuming 58' happened of course). As such I think you'll be pretty narrow on the left. The right is fine with Amoros but it is stretching it with Nilton especially as he had Zagallo in front of him.
WC All Stars Chain Draft SF: harms vs idmanager
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Tagging a few more regular voters if they might want to revisit their vote based on the discussion today.
@The Cat @Arbitrium @Cal? @BlackShark_80 @db-hero
@The Cat @Arbitrium @Cal? @BlackShark_80 @db-hero
The Cafs gone nuts when Roberto Carlos sets the standard for a full back. I doubt Nilton will make for a narrow formation. Always will have some bias comparing over era's, but still.... narrow?
Alright, time to pull the big guns out.
Anyone even slightly doubting Cruyff's ability to play the role he is assigned here in front of a 2 man pivot needs to watch this 1974 compilation of his.
The man was a footballing team all by himself and is without a question, the best WC performer on the pitch in this game from both teams combined.
More importantly, he is with all the space he needs and the supporting cast that would revel in his presence while not minding his ball hogging one bit.
If you had to pick a man from everyone out on the pitch there to come up with something special to win such a close game like this, it would be him.
Anyone even slightly doubting Cruyff's ability to play the role he is assigned here in front of a 2 man pivot needs to watch this 1974 compilation of his.
The man was a footballing team all by himself and is without a question, the best WC performer on the pitch in this game from both teams combined.
More importantly, he is with all the space he needs and the supporting cast that would revel in his presence while not minding his ball hogging one bit.
If you had to pick a man from everyone out on the pitch there to come up with something special to win such a close game like this, it would be him.
I'm a bit surprised at the turnaround but whatever — I still maintain the opinion that Kempes is more than fine here and he's playing exactly the role he did in 1978. He is not required to provide width (as I specified at the OP, Santos and Charlton peeling wide like he did so often are good enough to let him run forward and partner Müller in the box). Messi, on the other hand, is perfect for that right side — he's not an overly selfish winger like Garrincha and he's used to playing with dominant playmakers, but he (unlike Kempes), was more than often running on the wing (see his run against Hummels, for example).
I don't see how idmanagers is supposed to score here. Sarosi's heading ability is nullified by the monstrous Kahn-Figueroa-Cannavaro trio, and Matthäus will make Cruyff's life hell. Plus, since @Don Alfredo voted against Kahn on the basis of his final performance, let's not forget that @idmanager's star man also bottled the final.
I don't see how idmanagers is supposed to score here. Sarosi's heading ability is nullified by the monstrous Kahn-Figueroa-Cannavaro trio, and Matthäus will make Cruyff's life hell. Plus, since @Don Alfredo voted against Kahn on the basis of his final performance, let's not forget that @idmanager's star man also bottled the final.
Oh dear, Sarosi was not Peter Crouch mate. He didn't score just using his head even though he was great at it.
Lets not forget Czibor and Jairzinho were both semis final and final goal scorers in their WCs. How many in history have done tht?
They were as good from pinging crosses as they were at joining the attack in the box and slotting them in.
Especially when they have Brehme and Lahm overlapping, they will constantly try to go both ways.
Also, lets not forget, you are depending on your wing backs for width which should stretch your CB's.
That is bread and butter for any striker who is great at heading. So much space to enjoy between the centre backs.
Its funny, Sarosi and Jairzinho scored in every game of their WC's (2 out of the only 3 in history to do so and yet the ability of the team to score is being doubted
harms is selling Nilton as an attacking full-back. Most contemporary posters will assume an attacking-full back is similar to someone like Roberto Carlos, or Marcelo in style. Nilton is far more defensive than those two. Heck, I've seen more attacking output from Maldini than I've seen from Nilton in '58 (NB from what i have read he was far more attacking at club level, this comment is purely on '58)
Also, Nilton was 33 years old in 1958. Even if he is playing an attacking role here, he wouldn't have the speed to cope up with any counters through the wings. That should leave it wide up for Jairzinho who had so much pace to burn.
People can call Sarosi anything they want on the basis of lack of footage. But Kempes has enough footage to say this is plain and simple wrong.
He shouldn't have made so far into the draft if the plan all along was to play him from the left, a role he hardly did anything significant from in the 1978 WC.
Cafu was 32 in 02 and arguably at his physical peak. Don't think that should be held against Nilton. He had a great tournament.
Still undecided about this.
The lack of footage for Sarosi is a bit of a bummer so I'm not sure how well would they fit with Cruyff.
Think harms has a bit more individual quality in his side. Leaning towards him at the moment.
The lack of footage for Sarosi is a bit of a bummer so I'm not sure how well would they fit with Cruyff.
Think harms has a bit more individual quality in his side. Leaning towards him at the moment.
I think you could have done with an overly selfish player like Garrincha considering Kempes will have to almost play like a second striker.
That would have suited both of them.
FYI, you were the resason I picked Garrincha as the played to be blocked in the reinforcements
Sigh, I guess I can't get people's minds around Sarosi but you do have enough footage of Kempes.
You really think he would work here?
In a narrow formation where he is the only source of width on the left, it should be held against him.
Lets not forget he had Zagallo ahead of him in 1958 who had great work rate.
Playing a 33 year old in a wingback role manning the whole flank against an all time great flank on opposite side and not expecting to be punished is not correct.
He is not. I told it countless times, it's getting boring — you've got the point that my team is more narrow than yours, but that's about it — Kempes playing as a free-roaming second striker, as I specified in the OP ("joining Müller in the box"), and Nilton and Charlton, who played as a left winger in 1962 World Cup and a lots of times in his long career, is also going to peel left more often than not (don't forget that he won the World Cup in a team named "Wingless Wonders", where him and Peters were the only source of width on the left), it's his natural game
To be honest, no. Kempes and Messi are the ones I haven't voted for harms yet.
Kempes had Ortiz and Lique and was in some kind of Kaka type of #10 role. The games where he shined he had the option to drop deep and receive the ball, whereas with Sir Bobby I think their role would overlap a bit.
That and Messi's 14 tournament I really don't rate that high, apart from the name that is. He was rather anonymous in the knockout stage.
Not really sure about the Nilton Santos points. I mean it's fecking Nilton Santos, one of the greatest left-backs of all time, who won two World Cups on the trot (in a WC draft no less) and was famed for being the first proper attacking full-back in the history of the game. It's not as if harms has got Phil Neville there lumbering around.
I am sorry, but if you expect Charlton peeling off once in a while and Kempes free roaming once a while and say they are going to provide width, I am not going to buy is not matter how much you call it boring.
Aye, besides, he retired at 39, so he had plenty in his locker, not like he had 1-2 years left at top level after that tournament.
He also scored that awesome goal against Austria. Nilton is pretty fine here and even as a sole provider of width I'd buy that. I don't think harms has issue on the left the problem with Kempes lies elsewhere.
That's why I called it boring — not once have I said that Kempes is going to "provide width", but you keep returning to this point you created yourself. He isn't - it's not his task and it's not his natural game. He'll start from the left though, as he most often did — coming to the box as a second striker.
Well, he is up against an all time great winger in Jairzinho who had pace to burn against a 33 year old who played with a defensively sound winger in 1958 in Zagallo.
And of course, I don't need to sell Lahm's attacking prowess from the right.
Yea if it was 2 narrower formations, I don't mind him at all.
But here he is up against a WC legend combination from my right side.
I wouldn't expect him to win that battle even if he was of lesser age at his peak physical and pace powers.
Without any winger all alone? No way, he is winning that battle.
I like Nilton as much as the next guy, but you have to also consider the game dynamics.
Then what exactly is free roaming mate?
And why would you bring him in a conversation about width when you don't want to discuss him?
Its not his ability going forward that is being questioned here.
Its the big hole he leaves in the back to be exploited is what I am getting at.
Would he have the pace at 33 years old to recover against peak Jairzinho on the counter?
Zagallo's role was as much about balancing the midfield given Garrincha's free spirit on the other side and the potential for poor Zito to get over-ran. Can't really see that happening here with a Zito/Matthaus axis, with Bobby and Mario offering plenty of supporting graft in front. So I'm not buying overloads to the same extent as, for instance, where Moby had Puskas as the left-sided attacker in a 4-3-3 with not a great deal of legs behind him. Looking at it as more of a straight Nilton v Jairzinho battle which given their respective legendary WC status is pretty even.
The other game dynamic to consider is that much of Jairzinho's impact came from the early and potent service from deep, usually through Gerson or Carlos Alberto. Obviously Cruyff can provide that kind of ball, but your midfield duo might not have quite the same ability to get the big Brazilian running into space as Gerson did so often.
Here's something for you @2mufc0 lad.
Sarosi's goal from the 1938 world cup final.
Makes a run from deep areas, ball gets played down to the wings, scores off the service from the wings. Similar to the formation I am playing I must say.
Sarosi's goal from the 1938 world cup final.
Makes a run from deep areas, ball gets played down to the wings, scores off the service from the wings. Similar to the formation I am playing I must say.
from what i understand nobody is doubting Nilton overall quality nor quality of his performances at the given World Cup, what they are questioning is his playing style and did he really contribute as much offensive wise as you read on various different articles and websites. Personally im not sure what to think as when i was researching him for my team i was also unsure if he is the right fit as i needed an offensive wingback and watching that compilations against France you dont get that impression. Saying that, its only one game so the sample is very small.
Its not just Cruyff. Like Carlos Alberto, Lahm here can pick a pick to let him free. Lahm's 2014 version was an all round performance, crossing, cutting in, playing in the midfield etc.
Lets not forget Bobby Moore had great ball playing skills as well and assisted two goals in 1966 final.
And then of course, you have Sarosi who was known for his work rate. He won't just be playing the lone striker up front role and will be dropping deep often.
Obviously you can't create an exact matching team, but I see enough outlets for him.
Brehme and Lahm were picked along with Monti-Varela to provide these additional outlets both centrally and out wide.
Lahm 2014 WC compilation. Proper captain's performance
Finally something constructive on Kempes. But I'd still say that Charlton — unlike Maradona, for example, has a history of working with tons of other players — and you can look at their 1966 side to see a side with 4 central midfielders that still worked well. I'm sure that they won't overlap with Kempes but rather complement each other, although this depends on how you see both players.
Charlton managed to shine with law and best, and in a no winger formation in 1966. Out of all the star number tens, he is the one with the gameset to share the load with others.
what id say is that people are way to obsessed with width, its like you cant have a good team without someone hugging the damn line
I'll just leave a last point here.
My team has 6 players who captained their teams in the WC. 4 of them lifted the trophy.
You can't ask for a more immense presence in a team.
My team has 6 players who captained their teams in the WC. 4 of them lifted the trophy.
You can't ask for a more immense presence in a team.
Congratulations @harms .
That was a proper Fergie-esque game. Drab first half with a great second half.
Cheers and good luck for the final
That was a proper Fergie-esque game. Drab first half with a great second half.
Cheers and good luck for the final
Thanks. Would've liked to see a proper WM in the finalCongratulations @harms .
That was a proper Fergie-esque game. Drab first half with a great second half.
Cheers and good luck for the final
A Carlos'esque pkayer would be a weakness here. I can think of few better FB than Nilton in this matchup. Defensively he's solid vs Jairzinho and he will offer enough attacking output to keep the flank running. Both Charlton and Kempes will drop back to left middle if necessary, so it won't be a one man flank type situation. Not as wide as with a proper winger, but not as narrow as it's made out to be.
This is the 8th consecutive game that @Moby votes against me, has to be some kind of a record
You can't be too obsessed with width
I'm pretty sure that Neymar - Suarez - Messi front line will be criticised here
Although I have to be honest, I myself sometimes went over the top with width criticisms at times.