We all need to come back down to reality in terms of this squad

TrueRed1999

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I am still gobsmacked with how we are up there in the league compared to the start of the season. But I think we actually need to reflect after the Liverpool Premier League game it kind of all came back to earth for us. Have we been amazing, no. Have we played 1 game all season in the league where we have battered a team and you have come out of the game thinking wow great game, great result and great play, No. Our team is only capable of winning games in spurts in the games like 10-15 minute intervals and then they collapse. Whether this is a mentality, character or tactic issue who knows. But in all honestly we rode Lady Luck all the way to where we are and took advantage of teams that have now completely woke up and look like they mean business with their performances, attitudes and results.

The last match surely to god, Scott wouldn't have gone onto the game without telling anyone he has an iffy stomach, it was laughable. I felt sorry for him but he didn't look right in the warm up and its the managers job and his staff to look at those things and be able to notice it and remedy it. He should have been sent home, and then to not bring VDB on when the game needed it was another kick in the teeth for him. His confidence looks destroyed when you look at him, he probably should have went Barcelona or waited until he could as at least he would be used and you would see the best out of him.

We are in a position now that we have players who could score own goals, give zero effort for majority of the game or have a really bad game for a run of games and there UNDROPPABLE. I love Marcus Rashford I do but he has been atrocious the past 5/6 games, he has scored 1 or 2 but his performance has been well below what he probably expects of himself. And playing him through it won't help he needs to be rested/dropped for him to put more effort in. This is exactly what happened under LVG players became too relaxed and lost interest as they knew the management wouldn't drop them. Martial is another, he's lazy and his attitude is terrible. We bought Diallo who everyone is raving about and says he is the next best thing but nah not ready put him in the unders when we are CRYING for a RW. If you good enough your old enough is a famous saying of this club or is that saying dead now.

Ole's attitude as well, constantly sitting on the lines not willing to be on the touchline is very dismaying even when a decision has gone against you, the camera pans and he is emotionless or laughing. Fergie, LVG, Mourinho feck even Moyes would be having words with the 4th official. And his press conference today, oh those decisions shouldn't have happened. What does he want a trophy for what we already know, what I would have demanded to know is why his players have been atrocious. And against Sheffield, no disrespect but to be outplayed in every department was embarrassing for a team that will go down. Our work rate is gone and some of our best players like Bruno look like they have played too many games as he can't drop him understandable for certain players but give him a rest for a game or bench and come off.

We all got giddy as its been what 8 years since we have been top of the league and I was buzzing but also knew this team would collapse as the mentality, character, coaching and determination isn't there. Keane said it all on Sunday and he was spot on with everything he said. When you have a captain like Maguire who is buzzing to get a nil-nil and Bruno who knows he has had a bad game and storms off due to being pissed off with the result. Surely you start asking maybe we have the wrong captain leading this club, Maguire is a good defender but wouldn't get into any of the top 10 teams in the world as he doesn't use his common sense. Its amazing that he had a great world cup and it overshadowed his value and everyone thinking he was world class when he just isn't.

Back to Reality Reds.
 

UnofficialDevil

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I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
Next season Liverpool and City will go back to getting 90 points a season, and our target will be top 4 again.
This season one team is playing without strikers and the other without defenders. We have a very good squad with no injuries and a lot of depth, this was our chance.
We played a full squad against Arsenal that were missing key players, a full squad against Liverpool missing key players and achieved nothing, this was our chance and we blew it.
We will be playing against Southampton who are also missing key players with a full squad if we don't win this time either then we must accept we have turned into Arsenal, a team always aiming for 4th place.
 

YouOnlyLiveTwice

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You will always be able to find something wrong when you are looking from the sidelines, problem is we don't know shite.

Season is not over btw.
 

TrueRed1999

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You will always be able to find something wrong when you are looking from the sidelines, problem is we don't know shite.

Season is not over btw.
I didn't say it was but this squad and manager haven't got the stomach to even play more than 65% of a game where we are dominating and playing good football. When we start doing that regularly then we can look and say something might be happening.
 

Lentwood

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I'm not so sure we need to 'get back to reality'. I think most sensible supporters are aware of our limitations. Man City are on a different planet in terms of quality and squad depth, but then I basically ignore them as a means of comparison because they are basically playing Football Manage on cheat mode. The rest of the teams in the league have to face reality like we do, even Chelsea, so that's where I think the comparison become fairer.

On that basis, if you look at Liverpool, do they have a better SQUAD than us? I would argue 'no'. They have a better XI than us, but there's not much else beyond that. So effectively, they have gambled that spending £70m on Allison and nothing on a backup and £80m on Van Dijk and less than £10m on the two/three other CBs will work out in their favour. For a long period, they didn't suffer any significant injuries, which requires both luck and judgement. Now they have had a few, we have seen the drop-off in their points accumulation.

Generally, I think on average, our defence and midfield is UNDERRATED, based on popular opinion. I think the likes of Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly, AWB, McTominay, Fred...even Pogba are all largely underrated in the Court of Popular Opinion.

In contrast, by the same token, I think our attack is OVERRATED. I love Cavani, he is fantastic, however, let's not forget he plays at high-intensity and is 34. He can't be expected to play three times a week. Martial is the lad who flatters to deceive and Rashford is possibly one of the most overrated footballers in the World. Greenwood is still just a kid, a very good one, but kid nonetheless.

Realistically, I think if you replaced Rashford and Martial in the starting XI with two players who are actually top, top players (if not 'world-class), this squad could win a title. We are 2nd in the league and our forwards have, what, 13 league goals between the four of them? Plus, even aside from facts and stats, you can see just by watching us for 20 minutes that our forwards don't link effectively, don't hold the ball well enough and don't make the right runs - Cavani aside.
 

BR7

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I am still gobsmacked with how we are up there in the league compared to the start of the season. But I think we actually need to reflect after the Liverpool Premier League game it kind of all came back to earth for us. Have we been amazing, no. Have we played 1 game all season in the league where we have battered a team and you have come out of the game thinking wow great game, great result and great play, No. Our team is only capable of winning games in spurts in the games like 10-15 minute intervals and then they collapse. Whether this is a mentality, character or tactic issue who knows. But in all honestly we rode Lady Luck all the way to where we are and took advantage of teams that have now completely woke up and look like they mean business with their performances, attitudes and results.

The last match surely to god, Scott wouldn't have gone onto the game without telling anyone he has an iffy stomach, it was laughable. I felt sorry for him but he didn't look right in the warm up and its the managers job and his staff to look at those things and be able to notice it and remedy it. He should have been sent home, and then to not bring VDB on when the game needed it was another kick in the teeth for him. His confidence looks destroyed when you look at him, he probably should have went Barcelona or waited until he could as at least he would be used and you would see the best out of him.

We are in a position now that we have players who could score own goals, give zero effort for majority of the game or have a really bad game for a run of games and there UNDROPPABLE. I love Marcus Rashford I do but he has been atrocious the past 5/6 games, he has scored 1 or 2 but his performance has been well below what he probably expects of himself. And playing him through it won't help he needs to be rested/dropped for him to put more effort in. This is exactly what happened under LVG players became too relaxed and lost interest as they knew the management wouldn't drop them. Martial is another, he's lazy and his attitude is terrible. We bought Diallo who everyone is raving about and says he is the next best thing but nah not ready put him in the unders when we are CRYING for a RW. If you good enough your old enough is a famous saying of this club or is that saying dead now.

Ole's attitude as well, constantly sitting on the lines not willing to be on the touchline is very dismaying even when a decision has gone against you, the camera pans and he is emotionless or laughing. Fergie, LVG, Mourinho feck even Moyes would be having words with the 4th official. And his press conference today, oh those decisions shouldn't have happened. What does he want a trophy for what we already know, what I would have demanded to know is why his players have been atrocious. And against Sheffield, no disrespect but to be outplayed in every department was embarrassing for a team that will go down. Our work rate is gone and some of our best players like Bruno look like they have played too many games as he can't drop him understandable for certain players but give him a rest for a game or bench and come off.

We all got giddy as its been what 8 years since we have been top of the league and I was buzzing but also knew this team would collapse as the mentality, character, coaching and determination isn't there. Keane said it all on Sunday and he was spot on with everything he said. When you have a captain like Maguire who is buzzing to get a nil-nil and Bruno who knows he has had a bad game and storms off due to being pissed off with the result. Surely you start asking maybe we have the wrong captain leading this club, Maguire is a good defender but wouldn't get into any of the top 10 teams in the world as he doesn't use his common sense. Its amazing that he had a great world cup and it overshadowed his value and everyone thinking he was world class when he just isn't.

Back to Reality Reds.
Yeah some fair points, don’t agree with Maguire but can’t disagree with a lot.

We are in danger of being a team aiming for top 4 and CL qualification. The squad is pretty good on paper though it’s comparable to everyone but the scouse and citeh and much more advanced than most of the rest of the prem.

outside of VVD, who are the better CB’s than Maguire? so much so that he wouldn’t get in the top 10 teams in the world? Isn’t he already in one of the top ten teams in the world? On paper?

do you mean internationally? Which again which 10 countries are the best and who are their CBs? Think you’re being a bit unfair on Maguire as a player. As a captain I like my aggressive and shouty captains like robson, Keane and charlton so don’t disagree.

if Maguire wanted a transfer, would PSG not put a bid in for him and are they a top ten club?
 

croadyman

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Yeah the brutal truth is this squad is still at least 5 players short but also we will need to remove players because we are still very top heavy in some areas but and far too light in others
 
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Next season Liverpool and City will go back to getting 90 points a season, and our target will be top 4 again.
This season one team is playing without strikers and the other without defenders. We have a very good squad with no injuries and a lot of depth, this was our chance.
We played a full squad against Arsenal that were missing key players, a full squad against Liverpool missing key players and achieved nothing, this was our chance and we blew it.
We will be playing against Southampton who are also missing key players with a full squad if we don't win this time either then we must accept we have turned into Arsenal, a team always aiming for 4th place.
Bang on my man.
 

Borys

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We have a really good squad than needs better coaching. We could be playing much better even with current personnel.

Next season will be much more difficult as in the current one we have no big injuries and large squad advantage. Next season Pogba will be off and I'm afraid we will not use this money to strengthen the squad. De Gea is not getting any better as well.
 

croadyman

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We have a really good squad than needs better coaching. We could be playing much better even with current personnel.

Next season will be much more difficult as in the current one we have no big injuries and large squad advantage. Next season Pogba will be off and I'm afraid we will not use this money to strengthen the squad. De Gea is not getting any better as well.
God this is depressingly true
 

Andycoleno9

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Next season Liverpool and City will go back to getting 90 points a season, and our target will be top 4 again.
This season one team is playing without strikers and the other without defenders. We have a very good squad with no injuries and a lot of depth, this was our chance.
We played a full squad against Arsenal that were missing key players, a full squad against Liverpool missing key players and achieved nothing, this was our chance and we blew it.
We will be playing against Southampton who are also missing key players with a full squad if we don't win this time either then we must accept we have turned into Arsenal, a team always aiming for 4th place.
Spot on.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Next season Liverpool and City will go back to getting 90 points a season, and our target will be top 4 again.
This season one team is playing without strikers and the other without defenders. We have a very good squad with no injuries and a lot of depth, this was our chance.
We played a full squad against Arsenal that were missing key players, a full squad against Liverpool missing key players and achieved nothing, this was our chance and we blew it.
We will be playing against Southampton who are also missing key players with a full squad if we don't win this time either then we must accept we have turned into Arsenal, a team always aiming for 4th place.
Pep Guardiola team was never a team with a striker. He could win the league & CL with false 9 alone which proven already in 2010/2011 season.

We improved from last season. What makes you think we can’t improve next season? The aim this season was always been closing down the gaps with liverpool and city. If we can get 80 points by end of this season and then bring on 3 players to upgrade our XI in the summer, achieving 90 points is not impossible task.
 

Leftback99

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The reality is that the league is starting to shape up as expected with the odd exception. People got too carried away at what was only the halfway mark.
 

croadyman

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Pep Guardiola team was never a team with a striker. He could win the league & CL with false 9 alone which proven already in 2010/2011 season.

We improved from last season. What makes you think we can’t improve next season? The aim this season was always been closing down the gaps with liverpool and city. If we can get 80 points by end of this season and then bring on 3 players to upgrade our XI, achieving 90 points is not impossible task.
The problem with that is I just can't see where the money is coming from to bring in the 3 players needed for the XI
 
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The reality is that the league is starting to shape up as expected with the odd exception. People got too carried away at what was only the halfway mark.
Not as you expected, you thought Chelsea and Spuds had better squads.

It’s shaping up how I see the squads, although injuries to City and Liverpool made it a great opportunity.
 

SeanyC

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To hell with that...it’s been a miserable 5/6 years even the EL win under Jose was fun for about 5mins. I’m enjoying this and long May it last, few more signings and we will be fighting every season I reckon
 

always_hoping

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Pep Guardiola team was never a team with a striker. He could win the league & CL with false 9 alone which proven already in 2010/2011 season.

We improved from last season. What makes you think we can’t improve next season? The aim this season was always been closing down the gaps with liverpool and city. If we can get 80 points by end of this season and then bring on 3 players to upgrade our XI in the summer, achieving 90 points is not impossible task.
Agreed apart from the final sentence as I don't trust Woodward and Judge to get the required transfer business done this summer.

If only United have some like Michael Edwards over transfers..
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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ah, so he proved he could win with a player many consider the greatest in history at false nine. Riiiight.
That’s almost the same as playing Raheem there.
Call it the same if he wins UCL and PL with 96 points this season like what he did in 2010/2011. Point still stands, Pep system doesn’t require striker to win the league.
 

UnofficialDevil

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I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
Pep Guardiola team was never a team with a striker. He could win the league & CL with false 9 alone which proven already in 2010/2011 season.

We improved from last season. What makes you think we can’t improve next season? The aim this season was always been closing down the gaps with liverpool and city. If we can get 80 points by end of this season and then bring on 3 players to upgrade our XI in the summer, achieving 90 points is not impossible task.
De Bruyne and Aguero scored 30 goals between them last season. Both are injured.
 

croadyman

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Agreed apart from the final sentence as I don't trust Woodward and Judge to get the required transfer business done this summer.

If only United have some like Michael Edwards over transfers..
Yeah no truer word has been said and I hate giving them scouse bastards credit it makes me feel sick
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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The problem with that is I just can't see where the money is coming from to bring in the 3 players needed for the XI
Agreed apart from the final sentence as I don't trust Woodward and Judge to get the required transfer business done this summer.

If only United have some like Michael Edwards over transfers..
To put it simple. If we can achieve 80 points this season, the board need and have to think that we are actually very closed to challenge Liverpool and City 90 points teams for the title. 2 top class signings plus may be 1 for decent player will push us to reach it.
 

sullydnl

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We've struggled to finish in the CL places over this last decade, so obviously backing up scraping into the top four last year with an easy ride into the top four this year (while narrowing the gap on the top) will mark progress. "Just" achieving that doesn't mean we'll always be aiming for the top four though, as if it's impossible for us to continue improving beyond that in the coming seasons.

Frankly, given how far Liverpool were ahead of us last year and how dissapointing our summer transfer window was, we have zero right to expect to be any closer to the top of the table than we are.

Framing our current situation as some kind of let down would be stupid when we finished last season closer to 19th place than we were to 1st. This season is going well and failing to win the league won't change that.
 

Leftback99

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Not as you expected, you thought Chelsea and Spuds had better squads.

It’s shaping up how I see the squads, although injuries to City and Liverpool made it a great opportunity.
I still believe Chelsea do. They sacked their manager because he made a complete mess of it, unlike ours.

Don't believe I said Spurs had a better squad (you will no doubt prove otherwise), equal maybe but I didn't think we'd catch up the point advantage at the time.
 

JJ12

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More negativity :boring:
 

croadyman

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To put it simple. If we can achieve 80 points this season, the board need and have to think that we are actually very closed to challenge Liverpool and City 90 points teams for the title. 2 top class signings plus may be 1 for decent player will push us to reach it.
I want to believe they are thinking like that but I just have this sinking feeling we are gonna get the same excuses from our board again this summer, which 2 top class signings have you got in mind just out of interest and who do we need to sell in order to fund it.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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De Bruyne and Aguero scored 30 goals between them last season. Both are injured.
Barcelona 08/09 Eto’o scored 30 league goals - 87 points
Barcelona 10/11 Messi false 9 - 96 points

Anyone who watch Pep Guardiola style, his system was never with striker. I would rather see them get KDB & Gundagan injured for rest of the season but Aguero & Sterling stay fit. It’s always about him to be able to find solid back four and his midfielders.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-should-be-the-realistic-expectations-for-2020-21.456474/

Before the season started people in here think the realistic points for the league in 2020/2021 is 75 points to 80 points. None of that will be enough to win us the league this season even with City without Aguero and Liverpool without VVD because everyone keep saying it will take 85-86 points to win it this season.

All of sudden people think if we don’t win it this season means we waste our opportunity. How is from 75-80 points squad quality, now people think it’s 85-86 squad quality. :houllier: @Regulus Arcturus Black @UnofficialDevil @Andycoleno9
 
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Call it the same if he wins UCL and PL with 96 points this season like what he did in 2010/2011. Point still stands, Pep system doesn’t require striker to win the league.
Point doesn’t stand.

He’s won every single title without Messi with either Lewandowski or Aguero, two of the best strikers on the planet. Oh and David Villa.

Can he win a title without a striker? We’ll see I guess, so far he’s shown he can do it with Messi as a false 9 but posting that as though it’s somehow a hindrance or proof that he’s not working from a very weakened position this season is odd.
 

UnofficialDevil

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I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
Barcelona 08/09 Eto’o scored 30 league goals - 87 points
Barcelona 10/11 Messi false 9 - 96 points

Anyone who watch Pep Guardiola style, his system was never with striker. I would rather see them get KDB & Gundagan injured for rest of the season but Aguero & Sterling stay fit. It’s always about him to be able to find solid back four and his midfielders.
What I said was Liverpool have their defence out injured and City have their attack injured, which is why both are so low on points this season. Next season Van Dijk will be back and City will probably replace Aquero with a 150m pound player, both will be back to 90+ points, this season specially with us having no injuries was a chance.
 

UnofficialDevil

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I'm not anti Scottish, I just wanted Moyes out.
Barcelona 08/09 Eto’o scored 30 league goals - 87 points
Barcelona 10/11 Messi false 9 - 96 points

Anyone who watch Pep Guardiola style, his system was never with striker. I would rather see them get KDB & Gundagan injured for rest of the season but Aguero & Sterling stay fit. It’s always about him to be able to find solid back four and his midfielders.
Are you trying to convince me that City hasn’t been affected by injuries this season? That Aguero and De Bruyne aren’t key players?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Point doesn’t stand.

He’s won every single title without Messi with either Lewandowski or Aguero, two of the best strikers on the planet. Oh and David Villa.

Can he win a title without a striker? We’ll see I guess, so far he’s shown he can do it with Messi as a false 9 but posting that as though it’s somehow a hindrance or proof that he’s not working from a very weakened position this season is odd.
Weakened position? He had 41 points last season in 20 league games and 44 points this season in 20 league games. Point stands that Guardiola system relies on his playmaker, midfielder and solid back four which is why his team is now much better than last season despite having world class Aguero last season.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Are you trying to convince me that City hasn’t been affected by injuries this season? That Aguero and De Bruyne aren’t key players?
KDB is only injured for 4 weeks or 5 weeks not the whole season. He had 41 points last season in 20 league games and 44 points this season in 20 league games. Does it look like City have been affected?