If you want to define it as a big Sam type set up then it shows how hard they are to break down does it not? Which is why this thread exists in the first place because people think a bit of coaching does it - well City couldn't break it down with the best coach around.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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It's easy. People who want to put Ole down will say its all down to players when we win and all down to Ole and us not being coached when we lose.
Of course its a mixture of things but it's usual suspects writing usual things sadly.
Of course its a mixture of things but it's usual suspects writing usual things sadly.
It read like you're saying others will give him credit, implying you don't yourself, particularly given your Big Sam reference.
I'm yet to see a single person say it's down to the players when we win and down to Ole when we lose?
Yes, that is why I give ole credit for having a good defensive shape
. We were hard to break down and that is a mix of having top defenders and also us parking the bus and making it hard for city by limiting the time they have on the ball. Even though, they did break through quite a few times, only a small part of their opportunities was clear goalscoring ones.If we're awfuly coached team it means we win thanks to players inspiration.
After re-reading my post, it did seems that way
. But, I do give him credit for having a good defensive shape as he should.I don't understand the mental gymnastics some of you go through.
Ole and his coaching get most heavily criticised when we come up against a low block, don't create enough chances, fail to be clinical with those chances we do create and ultimately get sucker punched on the break.
So exactly like City today, then.
They have better players who are more consistent over the course of a season. That's it. I seriously doubt that if you put Guardiola in charge of this United squad we'd be 11pts clear.
Ole and his coaching get most heavily criticised when we come up against a low block, don't create enough chances, fail to be clinical with those chances we do create and ultimately get sucker punched on the break.
So exactly like City today, then.
They have better players who are more consistent over the course of a season. That's it. I seriously doubt that if you put Guardiola in charge of this United squad we'd be 11pts clear.
It wasn’t new. It was a win. Three points. Second in the league. First team to stop city win in 22 games.
This thread is about coaching but really people can only interpret what they see as good or bad coaching depending on their opinion of what good or bad coaching ought to look like when played out in a game. It’s subjective and can be fun to discuss but it’s really futile to support arguments with anything but results over a long period.
We were good defensively but have been for ages, just look at the goals conceded column and that will confirm it.
We are the second best team in the league. The coaching is not awful.
We are really not awfully coached and I really don’t understand how it’s not clear that a proper winger and a CM/DM who is good in possession would help us immensely in breaking down parked busses. We have already improved since Bruno’s arrival and have beaten mid table and lower teams more consistently, but that’s not enough. We do need more options and a more varied play which we won’t get without the above mentioned quality additions.
I am sure Ole would love a Scholes or Carrick and a Becks or Giggs in our midfield and wing and McFred or James (despite being valuable squad players) are just not that.
I am sure Ole would love a Scholes or Carrick and a Becks or Giggs in our midfield and wing and McFred or James (despite being valuable squad players) are just not that.
The players were very good tonight, we held our shape well. I think Ole did his job, however I do feel week in and out that he is not who we need at the manager level. He did his job tonight.
He deserves credit when we win, and also the blame when we lose, I do not think he has the tactical acumen to lead us to the top of the league, we are still too inconsistent.
I do think he has a good eye for talent, and is a club legend. I would love him to be in charge of the running the game side of the club with Ed running the commercial side.
He deserves credit when we win, and also the blame when we lose, I do not think he has the tactical acumen to lead us to the top of the league, we are still too inconsistent.
I do think he has a good eye for talent, and is a club legend. I would love him to be in charge of the running the game side of the club with Ed running the commercial side.
Michal Richards “great tactics form United, they were the better team” he nearly choked saying that but he is right..
ole schools Pep yet again.
ole schools Pep yet again.
I don't mean us, I mean in general. This thread is really all about how we struggle against defensive set ups. Well guess what, everyone does. The shoe was on the other foot today and we saw how hard City found it to break us down, despite their top class coaching.Yes, that is why I give ole credit for having a good defensive shape
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? City don't play with a low block.
City's squad depth is outrageous and is a major advantage over every team in the league.
I don't know how many points ahead Pep would have United but he would be doing a better job overall. This isn't a mark against Ole. Pep will go down as one of the best managers ever.
There is a major difference between City doing it once and us doing it a multitude of times. We account for 1/4 of all 0-0 results in the PL this season, and we have dropped points against some of the worst teams in the league. There is clearly an issue there that goes beyond just one game.
Are you saying we don't have good enough players to beat Palace, Sheffield, and West Brom? You don't need City level players to beat them, you just need to play better. Our team is clearly good enough to take points against these, but our tactics do not work against these sides on a consistent basis.
You're practically saying that tactics have no bearing on a team's success. That is nonsense. Why weren't they so dominant before Guardiola, despite having the best team in the league by far?
This is a ridiculous and serious underrating of Pep's quality as coach.
Considering how incredibly bad our players supposedly were just a few days ago, and how we needed to invest 500-600M more to be able to even compete with City and their likes, I guess Ole must be a genius. Only a genius could do this with such a terrible squad surely? Or maybe the result just shows that we are in fact underachieving, and that the squad is in fact more than capable of doing better than it is? Who knows.
Given the spending of the club, the size and also the history we should expect to be competing for the league every year. The last 2 years we have been completely out classed. This year we are second but miles behind City, who will not get to the totals that have had in previous 2 seasons.
We are fortunate that Liverpool have collapsed and some of the other top 4 regulars have under performed. The 2nd place is something of a mirage.
You see this when we keep losing late in Cup competitions and also in Europe.
The Caf' is really insecure about opposition managers getting praise.
But City are the only team in the league that are consistently beating those teams. So either everyone other than City has bad coaching or maybe it's something to do with them having far more quality options than anyone else (as well as the best coaching).
If we bombard teams for a good 10-15 minutes at the start of a game and score we look a different team so I don’t know why we don’t do it more seeing as we have the fire power as shown on occasions this season, teams leave space in behind when we score early which sets up perfectly for us.
People change their opinions on the squad depending on how it fits their view. Some fans who are ultra-pro Solskjaer would argue that the team is poor and is being dragged along by his excellent management. Ultra-anti Solskjaer will argue the opposite.
I think the team is very good, and I don't think we are getting as much out of it as we should be. We need some reinforcements, but I think there is are tactical/drilling deficiencies when we come up against packed defences.
Whatever it is, one thing we can be pretty sure of, the coaching didn't change the space of a few days.
Yeah mostly they wax lyrical about how brilliant Pep, Klopp, Hassenhuttle, Brendan, Tuchel etc all are... and totally ignore we’ve beaten almost all of them and are ahead of them in the league (except for Pep in 1st.)
It’s like a form of self harm.
Ole’s tactics are more underrated than any manager in the league when you apply their own logic to it.
Yes and the league position in March tells its own story on that as well.
No team that are coached ‘awfully’ are 2nd in March. Not in the PL, that’s a fact.
We didn't play a low block. Also City beats most of the lower clubs while we don't. Yes today everything was right in the tactics and also the effort of all the players. The midfield played very well today.
Yes, I do think those teams have lesser managers. Klopp is the only one in the league who can match Guardiola. Tuchel is supposed to be good, so we will have to see what he can do. But overall, Klopp and Guardiola are tactically superior to other managers, or at least far better at getting the players to carry out their gameplan correctly.
I do think Guardiola and Klopp would get more out of this team over the course of a season. I think some people underestimate how much a well-drilled system can improve a team; there's a reason so many players fail outside of a good system despite looking great at their previous side. They aren't great players, but great as part of a system. I would say our player, though, are easily good enough to beat sides we have been struggling against, and, for me, that comes down to tactics.
I think City's and Liverpool's (last season, at least) players would not be as effective at other sides. That is how useful drilling a side is with a proper system. I think Klopp and Guardiola would do better with this side than we are currently doing.
Of course, players have a big impact as well. I do think Tottenham lack in defence and midfield, but I don't think Mourinho always gets the best out of them in games.
Yeah it’s all luck.
Today was obviously a great result but I remember beating City at the Etihad in December 2019 as well, which turned out to be a false dawn. Underdogs playing without pressure (now we have let City get way out in front), defend deep and counter-attack - we know Ole’s United can do all that. But it’s not part of the job description at United for 95% of our fixtures. The dropped points of the last 2 months when tryiing to deal with expectation seem much more indicative of our (lack of) progress than a one-off like the derby.
I don't think this game changes anything really. I don't feel we learnt anything new, given the chance to play a tight, compact game with space to counter-attack into and the team shines along with Ole.
The issue is the other games we play where we have to force the the play. Full credit to the Ole and his coaching team today, they got it spot on today. Onwards and upwards I hope, a cup win and second is a good season.
The issue is the other games we play where we have to force the the play. Full credit to the Ole and his coaching team today, they got it spot on today. Onwards and upwards I hope, a cup win and second is a good season.
Players will look better in a good system (as long as its a system which suits them) but in the end player quality is far more important. As we're seeing with Liverpool this season.
Give my Sunday league team the best coaching and system, we'll still lose to the dog and duck two leagues above.
I don't think anyone's ever said that being good at counter-attacking is a bad thing. If that's the case you'll have to show me those posts.
What is bad is only looking like a good team when facing a team that allows you to counter-attack or leaves tons of space, and looking hopelessly lost anytime a team doesn't give you a lot of space or commit a lot of bodies forward. It's fine if you're a team near the bottom of the table, who most teams will come and try to attack, but the reality for United or any title chasing team is that a majority of teams will do exactly what United did today, ie soak up pressure, limit space for the opposition and transition quickly. So the bad thing isn't being good at counter-attacking, the bad thing is not having a good plan to use against the majority of opponents you'll face, which is the criticism that I've directed at Ole (and seen others do..)
Ole always did well against big teams but the spurs game at the start of this season left a scar on him as it reflected on other games against big6 but I hope he can be more adventurous after today’s show
I still believe if he gets 2/3 good players, he will do well
I still believe if he gets 2/3 good players, he will do well
Pretty sure counter attacking isn't a style of play. You can't go an entire season winning by just scoring counters and nothing else.
I think what we need to beat the teams that sit back is a top class RW who can beat a man and open things up.
Read a few posts to discover it's more of 'we beat City therefore Ole is best coach ever etc'. The black and white thinking gets so tedious. Is it possible that he can be a good coach and manager whilst still not being of the quality required to take us to league titles and latter stages of the champions league? Thats the issue people who aren't actual numbskulls are focussing on. The devil's in the details.
In context, given his experience as a coach and manager prior to Utd, he is doing an outstanding job. Is he one of the best coaches/managers in the world capable of delivering titles? It doesn't look convincing at the moment, despite some great results and purple patches here and there. The biggest clubs require the most elite of managers. Doesn't mean Ole is a 'PE teacher' or. clueless fool. Just means evidence suggests he is not quite at the level of the very elite, which is what you would expect a club of this size and with the resources available to appoint. Jeez
In context, given his experience as a coach and manager prior to Utd, he is doing an outstanding job. Is he one of the best coaches/managers in the world capable of delivering titles? It doesn't look convincing at the moment, despite some great results and purple patches here and there. The biggest clubs require the most elite of managers. Doesn't mean Ole is a 'PE teacher' or. clueless fool. Just means evidence suggests he is not quite at the level of the very elite, which is what you would expect a club of this size and with the resources available to appoint. Jeez
No not luck, everything came together today. It is not a black or white question.
I feel his talents are better suited to a different role with the club. The inconsistency of the past 2 weeks is a perfect example. A superior coach doesn’t have the consistent inconsistency that we have had overall. Are we trending in the right direction yes, do I think he is the coach to get us over the next hurdle, no.
I do celebrate with him on today’s victory
Are there any posts saying Ole is the best coach ever or anything on those lines? I'm sure most know Ole doesn't even do the coaching.
Are we awfully coached or not? is what the discussion is here.
This.
I'd also argue fatigue is a big factor here. Bruno and Rashford in particular look gassed, then you consider Martial have had his worst season in a United shirt (was good today though) and Pogba who has delivered either 9/10 or 1/10 performances