We will never win a midfield battle with Bruno Fernandes in the middle

[jesperjaap]

Now I’m sure we all know I’ve never been fond of him. He did have a good season last year and he is a main part of our team.

However is key attributes and differences are the main reasons why ETH cannot implement his tactics successfully. He is a liability out of possession and makes his midfield partners look weak due to the persistent of having to cover the ground he keeps leaving open. This is been an issue since McFred and if we don’t stick him out of the way adding another midfielder to occupy the 8 we will continue to be dominated in the midfield.

Discuss.

Though I understand your criticism of him without the ball, think it is over exaggerated and not the key problem, not when he is played further forward in his best position, he is the one willing presser and worker in the final third. I think in those terms the problem has been the midfielders behind him being weak defensively especially intelligence wise

I actually think the problem is his consistency when in possesion. It isnt just the losing the ball trying to play key passes, he gets caught in possesion for me also too much

 

[jesperjaap]

Of all the players in our team, hes the least of our problem. Yes he gives away posession a lot, but in 21/22 and 22/23 he had a higher pass % than KDB despite playing more forward passes, in 20/21 KDB had the higher number.

Playing as a CAM means you will often try risky passes and most will end in nothing, hes shown emphatically he can be neat and tidy in posession if he needs to. In fact, in purely techincal ability, who in our current squad is better?

I never understand the comparing stats to KDB or several other players. Remember a couple of years ago his stats compared favourably an dhugely to Cantonas.

I know you havent said it, yourself, are using the stats as an example, bt it says a lot about stats to me. I bet his stats are better than Berkamps too but anybody thinking he is on the same level as these players is at best naive

 

[Josep Dowling]

Of all the problems we have right night, Bruno is way down the list.

Ten Hag should be pairing him up with two midfielders who value ball possession. If he is still giving the ball away then, perhaps address the issue, but for now, the form of Casemiro and Ericksen should be the focus.

Yep exactly. I constantly see us bring in managers with a style that doesn’t suit key players in our squad. ETH wants to play total football but our best players are arguably Bruno and Rashford. Neither can really play in that system well as they’re both terrible at simple passing. This is a huge problem for us. Either Ten Hag accommodates by changing his tactics or the players have to be replaced. I know for sure both won’t be replaced so Ten Hag has to find alternative tactics.

Signing Mount was not a solution and so far looks to be the biggest mistake of the summer transfers. We are so light in midfield and definitely need a CM partner for Casemiro, plus better bench options. The back 4 is too exposed.

 

[Mainoldo]

It's funny that while the premise of this thread is... well, not necessarily right but you can certainly argue for that, but the arguments that you use are so wrong. In no way is he a liability out of possession and no, he doesn't leave his midfield partners overly exposed. His biggest issue is his inability to play in a slower tempo, he can't control the pace of the game, he always looks for a forward pass which is why he loses the ball so much (and creates so much simultaneously).

You can still build a well-functioning midfield with such a player but in all likelihood it won't be able to control the game in a way that City controls it (or Barca used to)... in fact, our last year's midfield with in-form Casemiro wasn't that far off – we've missed one key player (who wasn't named Mason Mount) to glue our midfield together with his ball-carrying ability and pace-setting passing (there's a reason as to why we've chased Frenkie De Jong so desperately).

Even De Bruyne (albeit being a better and a more all-rounded player than Bruno) was criticised for similarly overly-vertical approach by Pep... yet he has built around him in a way that maximises his potential and mitigates his weaknesses, if you can call them that. Be it by using David Silva or Bernardo Silva who excel at keeping possession and provide way more control (alongside the likes of Fernandinho and Rodri who were/are also amazing at it).

Can we win a midfield battle with Bruno in a team? Absolutely. Should we ideally target a slightly different player to succeed him? Someone in the mould of Odegaard (not that it's realistic) or Wirtz? Yep.

That’s why I made the thread. We love to look at the fact he gives the ball away a lot playing Hollywood passes but miss the actual key part that he is a major problem to our defensive structure especially when we are trying to maintain possession with or without the ball in key areas.
Bruno always breaks the structure early, teams create the same chance over and over against us because of this. We just concentrate on the last part. Ignoring the fact Rashford has to come narrow to help the Midfield. Martinez pushes up then exposing us to get killed down the flanks. It’s a common issue. He’s a brainless fart.

 

[Butty19]

He just needs to calm down, understand that he doesn’t have to play at 100mph and that every pass doesn’t have to be forward.

 

[kerrygold]

I also have not been a fan of his but his numbers are elite levels. If only he can be a little less risky. Take an extra touch or look to retain the ball sometimes.

But that’s the thing. He can’t.

 

[grahamo]

He gives the ball away .........a lot!

 

[alexthelion]

I'm not his biggest fan

not press resistant, technically poor in terms of dribbling/can't carry the ball, wasteful with possession. Productive though.

Souns just like Rashford.

 

[TsuWave]

Souns just like Rashford.

Agreed - and that’s why it often feels as though we’re playing we less men

 

[arnie_ni]

He presses like crazy and often wins the ball back or causes a turnover however when it doesn't work it creates a massive hole and we get over run.

Is it his fault for not being aware of when it's not the time to press, with no chance of a turnover, or is it everyone else fault for not pressing with him as a unit?

I genuinely don't know

 

[Sky1981]

It’s beyond me how any fan of United doesn’t absolutely adore Bruno.

What's so good about him?

 

[fezzerUTD]

Another unnecessary thread based on "feels" rather than facts.

"My point of view is so revelationary, I can't just post it in the Bruno performance thread".

Bigger problem for me is Eriksen, love the guy but he shouldn't be starting any games for United anymore.

So even though Ronaldo was the main goalscorer and biggest threat, every one wanted him out because they felt that the team would perform better, and it did. You have an interesting take.

 

[Reyoji-Utd]

We cam still do with him but have to cbange the other 8 that can settle more in defensive phase, carry the ball a bit and retain possession to control a bit. Its what we see in Amrabat and what we hope he can bring.

Casemiro in phases of the game isnt sitting in as DM, he venture upfront and act like a 8 more than we asks leaving gaps that Eriksen cant help to cover (as we see that he isnt strong enough). It makes us very wide open and prone to easy counter attack and we dont really have many of fast, athletic players to cover the counter attack and speed of teams. Bruno can still be there but only with a rapid DM and a more rounded CM that can do a bit of everything to help let him create and win ball back enough times to not makes us too vulnerbale to counter attack.

Add another CB with the likes of Todibo (strong, can play with ball, and fast enough to cover vast spaces), we can gradually turn to EtH transition team.

 

[RedfromIreland]

He gives the ball away .........a lot!

He assists……..a lot
He creates……a lot

 

[M Bison]

So in the whole time he's been a Utd player, we've never won the midfield battle once? Amazing that we've won so many matches with him playing if thats the case!

 

[Tarrou]

I think he's 5th for goals and assists in 2023 in the PL

we can't really do without that at the moment, so we need to sort out the two behind him and just keep him in the 10 IMO

playing him out right is bollocks

I don't like playing him 8 either, he needs to be closer to the goal to get the best out of him

 

[maurinho]

Despite him being one of my favorite players I do understand United fans’ concerns with his ball retention ability.

Having said that, I watch him play for my country all the time and I think that he can excel if the rest of the team is super technical, even if in a midfield 2. Players like Bernardo, Cancelo, Felix are silky on the ball and help Bruno a lot. You guys only have a washed Eriksen with similar ability.

3-4-3 with

Cancelo-Bruno-Palhinha-Mendes/Guerreiro

Bernardo-Striker-Felix

Has been working well

 

[JediSith]

Does anyone think Casemiro would be a good option playing further forward. He has a great pass and vision, good decision making, and also does the simple things which is something we miss in the attacking half. Then can try Amrabat as a CDM with Mount CM, or Mainoo CDM with Amrabat CM

 

[Hammondo]

Of all the players in our team, hes the least of our problem. Yes he gives away posession a lot, but in 21/22 and 22/23 he had a higher pass % than KDB despite playing more forward passes, in 20/21 KDB had the higher number.

Playing as a CAM means you will often try risky passes and most will end in nothing, hes shown emphatically he can be neat and tidy in posession if he needs to. In fact, in purely techincal ability, who in our current squad is better?

Every time I have checked hes been quite far behind KDB for pass completion, seems a total myth to me.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Quite the extreme statement.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

KDB comparisons are laughable to say the least.

 

[ole@thewheel]

Bruno is a 10/9.5 and is not 100% suited as an 6/8. The main reason for this is that he is not a ball carrier, and he takes passing risks because of that, making him a borderline liability when he plays deeper.

He should play in 'the hole' with two defensive minded midfielders shielding him at his back, so he can utilize his two biggest strengths: final pass & goalscoring abbilities.

 

[PSV]

He's possibly the best 10 in the league. We'll never win with a weak midfield behind him. He's constantly sorting out the rest of the pitch behind him.

Just last game against Bayern I think he was down there clearing the ball 5 times or so. It's ridiculous.

 

[neon_badger]

When most of the team under performs good players can get dragged down with them, it's reasonable to factor this in when looking at individual performances, however I'm not sure Fernandes qualifies for this exemption, he's the captain, he plays the most minutes and holds arguably the best on field position to influence a game, up against strong (or average for that matter) opposition he crumbles, the game takes him by the scruff of the neck.

 

[flappyjay]

2nd highest distance covered by a player in the Premier league is Bruno. There isn't a 10 working harder than he does. Maybe if the people playing behind him were as mobile as he is we wouldn't look so open at the back. Same goes for Rashford just like Bruno he is no perfect player. But we resort to rashford ball because Antony, Sancho and martial have all been liabilities . If the other parts of attack functioned we wouldn't have to rely on Bruno/Rashford so much.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

He's possibly the best 10 in the league. We'll never win with a weak midfield behind him. He's constantly sorting out the rest of the pitch behind him.

Just last game against Bayern I think he was down there clearing the ball 5 times or so. It's ridiculous.

It’s a shame about the two goals they scored where he was standing watching it develop and then only made a half arsed jog to try and get back. Not the first time this season either. One game he jogged back leaving Eriksen to try and cover two then started shouting at him when they scored even though he was the main culprit.

He puts in defensive effort when we are already in the muck often too late. Get people spouting about how mobile he is. There is no doubt he does put in effort and does run around but 3 goals off the top of my head where he has just been standing watching it instead of trying to get in to help his midfielders. He is and has always been part of the reason we get over run in midfield.

 

[Hammondo]

He assists……..a lot
He creates……a lot

Do we never learn how important it is to control the ball? What other top team would find that acceptable?

 

[mikeyt]

He's just not that good, end of. At times he produces a piece of magic, but it's 1 in 5 games these days and the problem is he's an utter luxury player. He'd obviously be better if we could control possession but I'd like to see us try something different with him out of the starting lineup.

 

[Hammondo]

I think he's 5th for goals and assists in 2023 in the PL

we can't really do without that at the moment, so we need to sort out the two behind him and just keep him in the 10 IMO

playing him out right is bollocks

I don't like playing him 8 either, he needs to be closer to the goal to get the best out of him

I hate posts like this, do you think one of the reasons he gets so many assists and others don't is because he plays so high up the pitch, and tries to do a Hollywood play constantly?

Also others get less chances because we never control the midfield because he's never there.

Absolutely no balance to our play, it's so old fashioned and 1 dimensional.

 

[Redbandito]

Of all the problems we have right night, Bruno is way down the list.

Ten Hag should be pairing him up with two midfielders who value ball possession. If he is still giving the ball away then, perhaps address the issue, but for now, the form of Casemiro and Ericksen should be the focus.

I think Bruno magnifies the issues posed by Casemiro and Eriksen by sloppily giving the ball away in transition and opening us up to counters. People always wonder why opposing teams cut through our midfield and think this is merely an issue of legs. It is that in part, but it’s also the way we lose the ball when we are throwing guys forward at full speed trying to establish ourselves in the final third. Bruno loses the ball frequently in these situations and leaves us totally exposed in the middle. Rashford is similarly guilty in the wing.

 

[Ted Lasso]

He's possibly the best 10 in the league. We'll never win with a weak midfield behind him. He's constantly sorting out the rest of the pitch behind him.

Just last game against Bayern I think he was down there clearing the ball 5 times or so. It's ridiculous.

That's my biggest issue with him. He's trying to do too much because he's not surrounded by enough players with even half the desire to win.

 

[Tarrou]

I hate posts like this, do you think one of the reasons he gets so many assists and others don't is because he plays so high up the pitch, and tries to do a Hollywood play constantly?

Also others get less chances because we never control the midfield because he's never there.

Absolutely no balance to our play, it's so old fashioned and 1 dimensional.

the main issue with controlling the midfield last season was behind Bruno, namely Eriksen. He is/was the 10 so not in the team to control the midfield, he's there to score and create which he does better than almost anyone in his position.

I'd prefer a different setup as well but we don't have it currently, so I don't see it as enough reason to bin off his 30-odd goals and assists...

 

[RedfromIreland]

Do we never learn how important it is to control the ball? What other top team would find that acceptable?

Yes. That’s why he creates a lot and assists a lot.

 

[Hammondo]

the main issue with controlling the midfield last season was behind Bruno, namely Eriksen. He is/was the 10 so not in the team to control the midfield, he's there to score and create which he does better than almost anyone in his position.

I'd prefer a different setup as well but we don't have it currently, so I don't see it as enough reason to bin off his 30-odd goals and assists...

That is a very old fashioned view on football, of course 10s responsibility is to control the midfield, you won't do shit without 3 central midfielders all contributing to controlling the midfield.

 

[Tarrou]

That is a very old fashioned view on football, of course 10s responsibility is to control the midfield, you won't do shit without 3 central midfielders all contributing to controlling the midfield.

I consider that an 8 rather than a 10.. a KDB kinda role

Bruno just isn't that player (kinda the whole point of this thread). he gives away the ball too much

as I said, I would prefer a different setup but we don't have the players for it at the moment.. and given we're lacking goals/assists from elsewhere in the team I'd rather we kept Bruno there

who would your midfield 3 be? We could try Case, Amrabat and Mainoo when everyones fit. We'd have much better control but where are the goals/assists coming from other than Rashford?

 

[Hammondo]

I consider that an 8 rather than a 10.. a KDB kinda role

Bruno just isn't that player (kinda the whole point of this thread). he gives away the ball too much

as I said, I would prefer a different setup but we don't have the players for it at the moment.. and given we're lacking goals/assists from elsewhere in the team I'd rather we kept Bruno there

who would your midfield 3 be? We could try Case, Amrabat and Mainoo when everyones fit. We'd have much better control but where are the goals/assists coming from other than Rashford?

I absolutely would be happy to look at the academy players for several positions tbh. I could get behind that midfield but is it a bit technically lacking.

 

[PSV]

Just some visual to further emphasize my point. (I grabbed these off some guy on twitter earlier this season, so I don't know the source they are taken from, but apparently this is heatmaps of the whole of last season).

If we can get two trusted midfielders behind Bruno so he can more consistently stay further up (see KDB) and concentrate on his 10-doings he'll have a high chance of doing even better.

 

[Hammondo]

Just some visual to further emphasize my point. (I grabbed these off some guy on twitter earlier this season, so I don't know the source they are taken from, but apparently this is heatmaps of the whole of last season).

If we can get two trusted midfielders behind Bruno so he can more consistently stay further up (see KDB) and concentrate on his 10-doings he'll have a high chance of doing even better.

Compare our other 2 midfielders with City's, with us you are likely to see a big gap between our 2 and Bruno, a bigger one compared to City. Also they bring Stones into midfield.

 

[Mainoldo]

I hate posts like this, do you think one of the reasons he gets so many assists and others don't is because he plays so high up the pitch, and tries to do a Hollywood play constantly?

Also others get less chances because we never control the midfield because he's never there.

Absolutely no balance to our play, it's so old fashioned and 1 dimensional.

I think the phrase is… you don’t know what you don’t know. It’s quite obvious he creates more because of the freedom we allow him. He’s hardly an eye of the needle creator either. I.e. Eriksen’s ball to Rashford.

 

[Sky1981]

Just some visual to further emphasize my point. (I grabbed these off some guy on twitter earlier this season, so I don't know the source they are taken from, but apparently this is heatmaps of the whole of last season).

If we can get two trusted midfielders behind Bruno so he can more consistently stay further up (see KDB) and concentrate on his 10-doings he'll have a high chance of doing even better.

Or if you get a team player who can keep the ball and maintain possession the other 2 midfielder will perform much better.

Bruno headless running really make Casemiro looks bad