You don't come back as many time from a game like we did last season with weak mentality.
Weak Mentality vs Weak Coaching
- Thread starter RDCR07
- Start date
Look I don't know how to say it other than the issue is mostly with performances, not with results. No need to run down open doors, I got it, I know for myself that the results are very good. But the performances are not and that certainly is a factor, that we stumbled on quite a few occasions especially when it mattered.
I am sure you do your best to convince yourself of that. I know, I have no chance to change that because it might be the backbone of your position towards Ole. I can only invite you to try to ignore the stupid stuff, the hyperboles that are undeniably part of the criticism and to listen about the actual concerns people have. Not only people in the Man United camp, Ole in or Ole out. These reservations are everywhere, not everybody lost their mind.
Leeds was bad. Bad in preseason, bad against us. Nothing of the pressing, no fast attacks. And even if, Leeds gungho style suits us, thats why we looked great against them last year as well. Bielsa is famous for sticking to his guns, his approach works against most teams and he is pretty successfull with it with Leeds. And I guess I have a different definition of domination than you, if you think, we dominated So'ton or Newcastle. These matches went pretty much more according to their game plans than ours, same for Wolves. We won a lot of matches, that is great no doubt about that. But it shouldn't lead to being overconfident.
I guess we have fundamental different ideas in that regard. You know a football match's result depents on a lot of factors, it would be crazy to assume that there haven't been any issues, just because the result is fine in the end.
You are right, we look better than a few years ago and we win more often than not. But a) look at the financial outlay, it has to be visible somehow and b) what are our ambitions? We don't want to be "better than last year" - we are trying to be the best. Of course sometimes you have to take babysteps, but after 3 years "sometimes" feels a bit hollow.
Well thats great for you. Unfortunately I think there is at lease a chance that you end up bemoaning other posters so in total it is the same amount of moaning.
So let me get this straight, a team that made it through to a European final and finished second in the Premiership did so despite poor performances?
That a team who are sitting with ten points at the top of an embryonic league are so despite poor performances?
Must be some kind of voodoo magic that.
I mean, to say the Newcastle game went to their gameplan is frankly hilarious, was Bruce's plan to allow us to score four times? Wow.
I'm not here to defend Ole, or shout at clouds or the people who believe we should have another manager, I'm merely here to impart some sense into some of the nonsense that's been posted on here.
I've lost count of how many owners and managers have stated that football is a results business, in fact Ole has said it himself on occasions, usually after a loss, yet here we are getting results and people are lambasting 'the performances'.
We only scored four against Newcastle, we only scored 5 against a poor Leeds side, we only won one nil against Wolves etc etc. It just looks and sounds like agenda driven drivel concocted by those who, for some strange reason, don't seem to enjoy this club getting results.
I would understand if we were playing god awful Burnley style longer ball stuff, but we're not.
I'm under no illusions that Ole needs to win something this year, that's the minimum requirement, it'd be nice if the fan base could actually get behind the team as surely we all want the same thing?!
No seemingly not. Look, we obviously have two very diverging understandings of good performance. Might be the case that I expect too much, might be the case that you expect too little. I also didn't say all performances were bad last season. But I remember only one really good one (from the top of my head) and thats the match against City that we won in the end (even that is slighty(!) tainted though, because Pep went attacking again, had he seen us as opponent for the title at that stage, he probably would have been more reserved, just like in the matches in the cup (where City won) and in the first league match (which ended 0:0 with City having a few better chances).
Most of the other performances have been ok to alright to professional. Which isn't even meant as a dig, that is at least something and it would be fine (and probably more realistic) if "alright" is the baseline with a few bad performances but some more very good ones. As soon as we deliver the last part, the criticism will fade quite a bit.
What do you expect Newcastle to do? Especially knowing our attack? As long as there was a chance of a point against us, they defended deep, soaked up pressure and tried to hit us on the counter with ASM (more or less pretty much like Wolves did a week before, which worked pretty good).
When Newcastle conceded (mind from a blunder after a relatively low chance shot), it wouldn't have made any sense at all to stick to that plan, so they became a little more adventurous on the counter which made it easier for us to play our game. Goal 2 and 3 for us have been fast attacks when Newcastle lost the ball a bit higher up the field. Goal 4 was nice but very late on when at least a few Newcastle players were already conserving energy.
All in all - their plan worked, we weren't able to create anything of note, we even conceded the equalizer a little later. I am not saying that our plan was shit because obviously we won, but I don't think, the match was as good from us as the result suggests. (Again: I don't want to take anything away from the performance, we won deservedly and the players were mostly fine. I just don't think, the performance should be used to show how great of a team we are).
1. I don't believe the bolded part
2. I think, you are making it look different than it is. The level of performances matter because there is always a chance, that a bad performance can lead to a bad result. It did against So'ton and it almost did against Wolves. Last season could have been even better than it was - if it would have been just for few more good results. That is, what makes people ancious, there might be a writing on the wall. I totally believe you, that you don't see it. Doesn't mean you are wrong or blind. But it also doesn't mean that the people who do otherwise are wrong and blind. Different perspectives I guess.
I agree with you. We are undeniably entertaining to watch. But if you remember, that was a valid claim by Arsenal in the good ol' days. And we laughed at them because they weren't able to solidify their claims with results or trophies so this "we play great stuff" thing can be a slippery slope in my eyes.
I think the overwhelming majority agrees with you, that this is a decisive year for the manager. And I personally think, it even is the majority who is behind the team overall (and why wouldn't they be, it is an exciting time).
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I'm not too sure what you are expecting of United?No seemingly not. Look, we obviously have two very diverging understandings of good performance. Might be the case that I expect too much, might be the case that you expect too little. I also didn't say all performances were bad last season. But I remember only one really good one (from the top of my head) and thats the match against City that we won in the end (even that is slighty(!) tainted though, because Pep went attacking again, had he seen us as opponent for the title at that stage, he probably would have been more reserved, just like in the matches in the cup (where City won) and in the first league match (which ended 0:0 with City having a few better chances).
Most of the other performances have been ok to alright to professional. Which isn't even meant as a dig, that is at least something and it would be fine (and probably more realistic) if "alright" is the baseline with a few bad performances but some more very good ones. As soon as we deliver the last part, the criticism will fade quite a bit.
What do you expect Newcastle to do? Especially knowing our attack? As long as there was a chance of a point against us, they defended deep, soaked up pressure and tried to hit us on the counter with ASM (more or less pretty much like Wolves did a week before, which worked pretty good).
When Newcastle conceded (mind from a blunder after a relatively low chance shot), it wouldn't have made any sense at all to stick to that plan, so they became a little more adventurous on the counter which made it easier for us to play our game. Goal 2 and 3 for us have been fast attacks when Newcastle lost the ball a bit higher up the field. Goal 4 was nice but very late on when at least a few Newcastle players were already conserving energy.
All in all - their plan worked, we weren't able to create anything of note, we even conceded the equalizer a little later. I am not saying that our plan was shit because obviously we won, but I don't think, the match was as good from us as the result suggests. (Again: I don't want to take anything away from the performance, we won deservedly and the players were mostly fine. I just don't think, the performance should be used to show how great of a team we are).
1. I don't believe the bolded part
2. I think, you are making it look different than it is. The level of performances matter because there is always a chance, that a bad performance can lead to a bad result. It did against So'ton and it almost did against Wolves. Last season could have been even better than it was - if it would have been just for few more good results. That is, what makes people ancious, there might be a writing on the wall. I totally believe you, that you don't see it. Doesn't mean you are wrong or blind. But it also doesn't mean that the people who do otherwise are wrong and blind. Different perspectives I guess.
I agree with you. We are undeniably entertaining to watch. But if you remember, that was a valid claim by Arsenal in the good ol' days. And we laughed at them because they weren't able to solidify their claims with results or trophies so this "we play great stuff" thing can be a slippery slope in my eyes.
I think the overwhelming majority agrees with you, that this is a decisive year for the manager. And I personally think, it even is the majority who is behind the team overall (and why wouldn't they be, it is an exciting time).
You state we are entertaining to watch, you also state that majority of our performances have been ok, there has been improvements season upon season under Ole, both in culture, style of play and results, we haven't lost many games since the start of last season, our away record is near faultless, our home record is now improving with fans back, yet still, still you cannot be happy with that!?!
We ain't gonna be beating every team, football rarely works that way.
I get people want trophies, but you can't win a trophy 4 games into the season, so why not just enjoy the ride until we either win a trophy this season or until we are too far behind and out of every competition, and if that happens then you can whine and moan about performances and results, as let's not forget football is a results business.
This season is key. Let's actually get behind the team, as they seem to be getting the results right now (bar one). And then piss and moan if all goes wrong.
No thanks. I am more of an instant gratification kind of guy, why wait if there is stuff to criticise just in front of us?
On a more serious note: I don't think every criticism should be labeled as whining and moaning. That is the fuel of these ongoing flame wars. We all like football, we invest time to write stuff about the club, and like to make our minds about it. Current issues, possible fixes. If you are not into that, thats fine. But with all the data available, all the matches going on, I don't want to spend my time waiting for January to discuss potential transfers and then wait for summer to moan, maybe celebrate to then discuss potential transfers again. I did that, its fun but not as appealing as before. Especially when it seems to be clear that transfers aren't the only route to improvement of a team, no matter how much some people want to close their eyes about it.
You don't know me, believe it or not I am a pretty laid-back guy. I could live with us being 6th if we would adapt an approach like Leeds' "Outscoring deluxe" and have matches finish 6-4 and such things. I expect United to win the games we should win because we have the better players (knowing there is no 100% success rate in that). Doesn't have to be, I am fine with bad results and the occasional bad performance. But they should be balanced with great performances and this is where for me personally there is a lack of.
Weak coaching. The mentality of our team isn’t anywhere near as bad as it was under Moyes for example but our coaching especially in those finals we bottle is so bad it would make prime Madrid look bad.
Tuchel´s Chelsea were leading 1-0 at home to West Brom, got a man sent off and went away to lose 2-5. Cherry picking at its best.
I agree with you about the cherry picking as these things happen. The worrying thing for me wasn’t the result though it was the performance and tactics after going down to 10 men.
Im hoping it was just a one off and not too read into it. West Ham match will send this extreme either way. One way this match will be completely forgot about or this place be in meltdown
It´s kind of frightening to see how badly some deal with defeats. This loss will easily turn out to be the most insignificant loss of the season, but it´s like their whole self esteem depends on United winning every game. Why is that.
Well I hope it does turn out to be that as we will get out of the group.
Fans are fickle it’s the way it is. I blame Ole for his tactics after the red card the other night as I feel he could of done more but seeing some saying sack or get rid etc is mental? We are top of the league with 5 games total played this season.
I was never Ole in or Ole out I just always think how we are performing overall and give my opinions on the latest match but both sides really go the extreme yet the truth is in the middle.
The truth is Ole is doing well has met expectations so far and built a great squad. Does he have the ability to challenge with that squad ? Remains to be seen but right now he’s doing fine
Nobody should reference Tuchel in a 'have a team done well under the parameters they are working with' argument. He walked into one of the most plastic petro fueled hollow nothing club ever and 'won' and I say won in inverted commas, a trophy. That win meant ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE WIDER SCHEME OF FOOTBALL. It was fake. It was plastic. We have legitimately won 3 CLs. They have legitimately won 0. He has literally done nothing.
That is RAWK level stuff.
He took a team in 9th too top 4 and won CL.
Contender for worst post of the year.
Leeds don't play great football, they play a brand of organised chaos.No thanks. I am more of an instant gratification kind of guy, why wait if there is stuff to criticise just in front of us?
On a more serious note: I don't think every criticism should be labeled as whining and moaning. That is the fuel of these ongoing flame wars. We all like football, we invest time to write stuff about the club, and like to make our minds about it. Current issues, possible fixes. If you are not into that, thats fine. But with all the data available, all the matches going on, I don't want to spend my time waiting for January to discuss potential transfers and then wait for summer to moan, maybe celebrate to then discuss potential transfers again. I did that, its fun but not as appealing as before. Especially when it seems to be clear that transfers aren't the only route to improvement of a team, no matter how much some people want to close their eyes about it.
You don't know me, believe it or not I am a pretty laid-back guy. I could live with us being 6th if we would adapt an approach like Leeds' "Outscoring deluxe" and have matches finish 6-4 and such things. I expect United to win the games we should win because we have the better players (knowing there is no 100% success rate in that). Doesn't have to be, I am fine with bad results and the occasional bad performance. But they should be balanced with great performances and this is where for me personally there is a lack of.
I wouldn't be happy with any team, yet alone United, defending the way they do.
I would rather United look to play attacking football with an element of poise and defensive solidity, which we appear to be doing. Its not perfect but it's working more times than not so far.
That's evidently where we and several other United fans differ, and I'm sure that if we were 6th and defending like Leeds, Ole would be out of a job.
cmon dude. This is a really a really bad take on the situation. I don’t even care much for CL as much as I care for PL. But Tuchel’s CL win is nothing short for absolute admirable given the circumstances.
It feels a bit as if you are trying to nitpick the pieces that you can attack to avoid to agree with me.
I didn't say we should be like Leeds nevermind defend like them. Their way of playing the game last year was being attacking and create chances to outscore their opponents. They are fine with having not the best possible defense as long as chance production is working and they can outscore to win. That is impressive seeing their player material and budget but also these factors are factors why that is possible. As doesn't have the attacking firepower that for example we have, their opponents are not applying deep block tactics against them.
A club like Leeds can be fine with having one plan, a top club like United shouldn't be fine with having only one plan which is apparently the case. But there is no need to go deeper into it, I just used them to illustrate that my expectation results-wise may be even lower than yours at this point in time. What I want to see is better performances, not even great performances in all games but maybe at least 120 minutes per month while the rest is ok to good. I can live with having 45 minutes of trash cause it would be balanced out. I don't know, I pulled these number more or less out of my *** but I hope it got the point across: I'd like to have more balance between great and bad performances. I would be shocked, if the results would really suffer trying to make that work because we have a great group of players.
No, I'm just talking sense and have realistic expectations of a bunch of humans playing a sport that typically isn't easy to dominate for 90 minutes.
Just ask City and Guardiola today.
Well thank god current events gave you a good argument for all your "sense". If you really think that I am looking for 90 minutes dominance after all I wrote, then I guess this was time spent pretty badly.
You're the one shouting at clouds really. What else are you looking for, as it seems even you're not sure!?!
If you can't see the wood through the trees after all that then I can only wish you well for the rest of the season, because we won't win every game, and we won't play well in every game.
God help you.
Surely not another top club struggling to dominate a football game they should have won??
Who'd have thought it?
it's almost like it never happens ever...I am happy when you are happy. But it still seems weird to me that you are so happy to prove a point nobody really denies, isn't it? I mean, the outcry (and I am happy to agree that the extent was a bit OTT) wasn't in the majority because of the result, it was (again) because of the performance and the way Oles decision might have influenced that performance.Surely not another top club struggling to dominate a football game they should have won??
Who'd have thought it?
It is pretty rich to talk about me not being able to see the forest when you are using the current La Liga champion, who got out of the CL group and the current Premier League champion who made the CL final. If you decide to put more light on the bad result of today, alright then.
I'm just happy when my team win, I really don't worry too much if they haven't produced multiple forward passes, or if the main striker hasn't scored a brace.
I want United to succeed.
Sorry if that upsets you, and I'm sorry if you want to pour scorn on a team than are producing. But that's your decision, so feel free.
In fact, feel free to support City, a hollow club with a hollow fanbase who seem to be pretty good at letting people like you down.
Thanks for making it so obvious that lunatics appear on both sides of the spectrum. I mean, how would you describe somebody who advises you to support a different football club just because he or she has a different idea of how a team should present itself.
It is a rhetorical question, no need to answer, I think, it is clear that dialogue leads nowhere so lets safe the time and energy.
I didn't advise anything. I offered you another team to support as you struggle to support United.
Not sure the lunacy involved in that.
Your standards are obviously set sky high, and that's fine, but don't whine and moan when United fail to live up to them impossibly high standards, as no team can live up to that.
Be assured that I will moan (and even whine) whenever I feel the need to do so. At this point only to bother people like you.
Which explains a lot.
Try to enjoy the game today. Just warning you in advance that West Ham probably will have some shots and possession of the ball,
Thanks. Good to know to have somebody experienced right next to my side in case of questions. How about your time after the game? Are you available to "fight" the impatient and unhappy right after the game or not before the evening? ^^Which explains a lot.
Try to enjoy the game today. Just warning you in advance that West Ham probably will have some shots and possession of the ball,
So what did you think?
I loved the reaction, we played really well!