Weak Mentality vs Weak Coaching

croadyman

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Coaching for sure.
I wanted Ole to succeed badly at United, but I don't think he have the ability to do it.

The way I see it, Ole never think that keeping possession is important, unlike our other rivals coaches. The way you see our midfield playing under Ole, it was quick transition and high risk passes to try opening up the defense 90% of the time. Which would work well if you're playing counter attacks, but would not be effective if you're playing a well organized team who played low block defense.
Tonight match just highlight this even more. Because when you're down 10 men then keeping possession isn't a luxury anymore, it' become a necessity. And I think it's the same reason why United under Ole have crumbled late in matches when they have something to hold on too. They can't see out matches because they can't hold on to the ball.
Yeah it just proves that he is not a top coach because ball possession is essential for the likes of Pep, Klopp & Tuchel
 

CG1010

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I missed the match so I don't know how well/poorly we did considering the circumstances ( we were ahead until the red card) but regarding Lingard, I feel this one is on Ole. Ultimately he is the one who has brought him back from out cold but its clear Lingard doesn't have the mentality to compete at the highest levels.
 

AjaxCunian

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Feck me.

Ronaldo said heads up, shit happens. No need to overanalyze things.

Ronaldo, Ole, the club has set the objective to go to the next round. Let's support the team.

We're a joke on twitter. Schoolboys trending up #oleout again. Where were they when we signed Ronaldo and got 10 points in the league.

This thread, along with other threads coming out from today's defeat is just fecking mental to read.

Heads up, we have a long season ahead.
It's funny, 10 points in the league with those performances having played Leeds, Wolves, Soton and Newcastle is just decent to me and many others. You are expected to win all of those, with excellent performances as well. Drew one, some rather poor performances too, decent.

You want to parade after it, which is commendable really.
 

Listar

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It's funny, 10 points in the league with those performances having played Leeds, Wolves, Soton and Newcastle is just decent to me and many others. You are expected to win all of those, with excellent performances as well. Drew one, some rather poor performances too, decent.

You want to parade after it, which is commendable really.
As funny as #Oleout after losing a game with 10 men?
 

AjaxCunian

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As funny as #Oleout after losing a game with 10 men?
No, not sure what they have to do with eachother.

I think those screaming OleOut aren't basing it off one game though, which they are always accused of.

It is always, this was a one-off game but the same criticisms have been there for Ole for nearly 3 years.
 

croadyman

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No, not sure what they have to do with eachother.

I think those screaming OleOut aren't basing it off one game though, which they are always accused of.

It is always, this was a one-off game but the same criticisms have been there for Ole for nearly 3 years.
Correct but Ole inners have difficulty getting their head around this and just think we are all kneejerk central plastics
 

Lebo

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Mentality of our players coming into question every time the manager fails tactically is a big problem. This team had Ronaldo, Pogba, Fernandez, Maguire, Varane, Shaw. The problem here is that our ball retention is poor. Look at our play during LVG, we were terrible at creating chances but we knew how to keep the ball. I’m not saying he is better than Ole. I’m just pointing out that particular attribute of that team
 

Bobcat

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Your bizarre analogy about arresting the drivers instructor means taking action on Ole aka firing him. I’ve never said anything like that. But questions do need to be asked - is he doing the right thing in training?

If a kid continuously get into bad things or worst case becomes a murderer then the question will eventually arise did his/her parents raise that kid right and instill right values?

That’s what is being asked here - is the coaching right for the players? For example when we go down to 10 men’s what’s exactly is the plan? Just hoof the ball down the field? Did they train and have a plan in mind to hold the ball? Not to dominate and try to score but to hold the lead and play out the game cause we didn’t do it.
They're freak mistakes by the players. It's not like AWB regularly gets sent off or Lindgard regularly gifts the opponents goals like that
 

croadyman

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They're freak mistakes by the players. It's not like AWB regularly gets sent off or Lindgard regularly gifts the opponents goals like that
Yeah they are but Ole is still clueless when it comes to dealing with adversity and surely you can at least acknowledge that
 

Amadaeus

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A team with Ronaldo having weak mentality? That has to be a joke. This guy lives football. The answer is simply weak coaching. We looked clueless and that comes down to coaching. It wasnt like we were playing with 10 men against a top team. We should have held out for the win by being solid in defense and look more dangerous on counter Like how Tuchel organized Chelsea at Anfield. We did none of that And looked like an amateur team.
 

11101

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If it wasn't for one player who we have long known isn't good enough we would have seen out a draw, which isn't a terrible result with 10 men. I think we have a good mentality now.

What we lack is coaching. Yet again, we made changes that leave even the average armchair fan scratching their heads, and yet again they were the wrong changes and cost us the game.
 

Son

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Today wasn't a case of weak mentality

It was confused mentality, the moment we went down to 10 men and the subs started happening.
It’s been there all season too so far. We’ve been bang average apart from the Leeds game. Newcastle was rough around the edges apart from our goals and Wolves we never deserved a win.
 

Hughie77

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Do some of our players lack the mentality to play for United? Or is the coaching stuff just not good enough? Do the likes of Carrick and Mckenna need to replaced?

I understand going down to 10 men and playing for 55 minutes a man down is hard but why did we struggle so much to even get possession and get the ball up the pitch let alone have a shot on goal?

Chelsea went away to Anfield and played a man down for an entire half and came away with a point? We couldn’t even do that to a Swiss team. So is it a player quality issue or is it Ole’s management or is it the mentality/mental toughness issue? I don’t think having Ronaldo alone is going to fix the issue. He can only do so much.
Chelsea got there bit of luck along with good defending, it was the same tonight for utd, bar Errors
Even a man down we should have been able to control the ball and pass it and kill the game. Pep at Bayern went a man down to City one year and did precisely this.

We rely on individual brilliance rather than collective brilliance.

I dont think ole is getting the best out of the players that he has.
With an established team, not new faces who are bedding in , this was a great point until a horrendous back pass. That's it on 95 mins boys did all that they could to be fair . But they all should learn from it.
 

ray24

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Ole is an outdated manager. Relying on individual players to win matches might work in the 90s and early 2000s, but it's clear it's an outdated approach for any team wanting to win the major trophies.
 

Hammondo

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And yet they've only been slightly less creative than us in terms of actual chances this season despite having tougher fixtures. About 0.14 less xG than us in the PL, and higher open play xG. Consistent with last season where they were also ahead of us in terms of those underlying stats, particularly once Tuchel took over.

Not bad for a "defence first" team. It's almost like they're better coached than us...
Yes because midfield is that important.
 

Hammondo

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I think you need to look at the goal stats since he took over. They arent Mou’s park the bus team. They are tactical and their strategy lets them be very good at both attack and defense.

And I’m pretty sure if we are winning games and the Champions League the fans wouldn’t give a shit about “thrills” or their favorite players playing. Let’s not become like Arsenal when they didn’t win anything with Wenger after like 04 or 05 but kept saying they play the best football the country. What does that pretty football with no trophies get you?
I would be very happy with him, I don't care as much about thrills as most.
 

Bobcat

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Yeah they are but Ole is still clueless when it comes to dealing with adversity and surely you can at least acknowledge that
FFS. Comeback kings last season and two freak mistakes later and suddenly Ole and the players are a bunch of fannies?

YB hardly created anything the entire second half besides the two goals, one of which was an absoloute gift. Had Lingard hoofed it upfield instead we would all be content with a hard fought draw, where as now the world is crumbling around us and everyhting is shit again
 

Smores

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Nothing to do with mentality and everything to do with tactics being insufficient.
You could see the players were uncomfortable with it. It's a very simple thing to blame Lingard but when you invite constant pressure mistakes happen. How do people not know that by now? It's been a debate had constantly on here over the years because 9/20 it has always gone wrong.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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Ole is an outdated manager. Relying on individual players to win matches might work in the 90s and early 2000s, but it's clear it's an outdated approach for any team wanting to win the major trophies.
Similar to most of the managers who played under Fergie really, none of them have looked like they had any particularly good ideas
 

VanDeBank

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We watched 2 different games then.

If you think that was an acceptable performance, then your standards are far different from mine.
Conceding only one chance with 10 men is unacceptable to you?

I mean I gave AWB and Lingardinho a 2 or 3 in the ratings. But all the others got higher than a 6 from me.

2 freak individual errors cost us. The team defended well as a unit, evidenced by the fact we gave away one fecking chance defending with 10 for 60 mins.
If multiple people from the same driving instructor end up crashing, the coppers WILL investigate the driving instructor.


I think you were watching the wrong match today mate. YB completely dominated in possession, strength, willpower, and team structure. They pressed from start to finish and we constantly whipping balls into the box. It was like watching a PL team play a league 2 team, in which WE were the league 2 team. We went maximum coward mode by taking off Sancho and then playing defensively with 5 at the back. How can you not see that?

Are you honestly telling me that the likes of DDG, Shaw, Varane, Maguire, Fernandes, Pogba, Sancho and fecking Ronaldo are not good enough to win a match against a team like YB even at 10 men if we went for the attack? They created LOADS of chances and the score should have been 4-1 or 5-1 in THEIR favour. We would have won comfortably with any of the other top managers in the PL, even after going 10 man down. I've always defending Ole before today, but this just showed me how ridiculous his decision making really is. Managers at the top order simply cannot have these moments of madness if they want to win trophies these days; the level of competition now is too much to be doing this.
This post is shit.
 

Hugh Jass

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Would the other top teams in the world hire Ole given what we have seen since he was hired? Would City or Bayern replace their managers with Ole? They wouldnt. That is the reality.
 

passing-wind

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The club is heading into a situation where the quality of the players totally outclasses the significance of the coaching staff, I said it last year Solskjaer is now in exactly the same situation as Lampard. More money spent with better players means an increased expectation. If this United team doesn't qualify for the UCL I think that puts Ole's name up for the sack irrespective of a top four finish.
 

tomaldinho1

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Even over Zidane?
Zidane would be great because he would immediately have the respect of the whole squad & he sets up his teams well to play in the CL. I do wonder however if him not speaking English (as far as I know) would be an issue though. I remember Enrique was learning English back when he was linked with Chelsea years ago so imagine he's got a decent level. Maybe not.
 

RDCR07

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The club is heading into a situation where the quality of the players totally outclasses the significance of the coaching staff, I said it last year Solskjaer is now in exactly the same situation as Lampard. More money spent with better players means an increased expectation. If this United team doesn't qualify for the UCL I think that puts Ole's name up for the sack irrespective of a top four finish.
If he doesn’t qualify for UCL then automatically it’s not a top four finish. I think if he doesn’t get a trophy this year he should be let go.
 

RDCR07

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Mentality of our players coming into question every time the manager fails tactically is a big problem. This team had Ronaldo, Pogba, Fernandez, Maguire, Varane, Shaw. The problem here is that our ball retention is poor. Look at our play during LVG, we were terrible at creating chances but we knew how to keep the ball. I’m not saying he is better than Ole. I’m just pointing out that particular attribute of that team
LVG is better than Ole any day of the week. He just wasn’t suited to United and he certainly didn’t have the players to implement his vision. Maybe he might do better with the current crop.
 

Champ

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It’s been there all season too so far. We’ve been bang average apart from the Leeds game. Newcastle was rough around the edges apart from our goals and Wolves we never deserved a win.
So apart form the four goals against Newcastle and the clean sheet against Wolves and the win against Wolves we've been bang average?

A team cannot play well every match, whats that old saying? It's a sign of a good team when they win despite not being at their best? Or something along those lines.

So what you are actually saying is we are a good team??

The Wolves game we ended up winning due to taking our chance when we got it to me that derves a victory, the Newcastle game was utter domination from start to finish, Leeds game was superb, Southampton we dominated posession and had more chances just didn't take them.

Have a feeling you are watching games with too much of an agenda.
 

MattofManchester

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There's an issue with both. We had a problem breaking down defensive teams before Bruno. We said the issue was the lack of a creative midfielder. We then said Pogba not being in the side was the issue. Still struggled. Then it was the lack of a right winger. We have one now. Still struggling to break down defensive teams. Scorelines have flattered us at times. It's getting a bit ridiculous. Nevermind our defensive shape is usually all over the place.

But players have to shoulder the blame. Outside of Bruno, Cavani and Ronaldo, we don't seem to have any players who want to be at the forefront driving the team forward. Maybe Greenwood, but he's on the young side. They all seem happy to sit back and let someone else do it for them, then we get stuck with players having inconsistent performances and shambles like the Europa final, December last season, etc.
Nobody seems eager and hungry to step up and make us a force again. They all like to talk about trophies, winning, Manchester United, blah blah, but when it comes down to match day, they will put in a half-arsed performance, then come out with the "not good enough" nonsense, then do the same thing the following week.
 

RDCR07

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There's an issue with both. We had a problem breaking down defensive teams before Bruno. We said the issue was the lack of a creative midfielder. We then said Pogba not being in the side was the issue. Still struggled. Then it was the lack of a right winger. We have one now. Still struggling to break down defensive teams. Scorelines have flattered us at times. It's getting a bit ridiculous. Nevermind our defensive shape is usually all over the place.

But players have to shoulder the blame. Outside of Bruno, Cavani and Ronaldo, we don't seem to have any players who want to be at the forefront driving the team forward. Maybe Greenwood, but he's on the young side. They all seem happy to sit back and let someone else do it for them, then we get stuck with players having inconsistent performances and shambles like the Europa final, December last season, etc.
Nobody seems eager and hungry to step up and make us a force again. They all like to talk about trophies, winning, Manchester United, blah blah, but when it comes down to match day, they will put in a half-arsed performance, then come out with the "not good enough" nonsense, then do the same thing the following week.
Agree with most of what you said. But if Ole does win a trophy this year hypothetically let’s say it’s the league will either the mentality or what they do in coaching change for the better?
 

largelyworried

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So apart form the four goals against Newcastle and the clean sheet against Wolves and the win against Wolves we've been bang average?

A team cannot play well every match, whats that old saying? It's a sign of a good team when they win despite not being at their best? Or something along those lines.

So what you are actually saying is we are a good team??

The Wolves game we ended up winning due to taking our chance when we got it to me that derves a victory, the Newcastle game was utter domination from start to finish, Leeds game was superb, Southampton we dominated posession and had more chances just didn't take them.

Have a feeling you are watching games with too much of an agenda.
People are abusing that saying to hell and back. The actual sign of a good team is one that performs well most weeks and wins stuff.
 

ray24

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Similar to most of the managers who played under Fergie really, none of them have looked like they had any particularly good ideas
The managerial "school" of Alex Ferguson is really poor and outdated once you look at how well the "graduates" have performed. None of them are rated for their coaching and tactical abilities the way other modern managers are judged. Let's face it, Man Utd as a club is outdated in terms of modern football tactics. Even in the final years of Ferguson's regime you aren't really rated for excellent tactics, and games are more often won by Ferguson's sheer willpower.

The managers hired after Ferguson didn't really help things either. Moyes is an outdated manager in terms of tactics and poorly suited to be the manager of a top 4 club. Van Gaal is also outdated despite being one of the "founder" of modern football tactics. Not to mention the fanbase never really took well to the football style he was trying to implement. Mourinho is also another outdated manager with his prime being in the past. His tactics is also outdated with modern day pressing football making it more difficult for it to work and harder for players to buy into his vision fully. Then you guys went and hired Ole, who is a disciple of Ferguson who paid more attention to man-management but paid far less attention to tactical coaching and etc. While other clubs implement modern progressive football tactics all the way to their U12 level, I imagine this is hardly the case at Man Utd with the managers being brought into the club.

You guys won't win much trophies under Ole simply because you're hiring an outdated manager that isn't suited to winning most of the big prizes in football. Ole's tactics work for a mid-table manager seeking to exploit gaps in defence of "larger" clubs who tries to be more adventurous with their attack. It's why Ole does well against Bielsa's Leeds United because they play an extremely risky attacking football plan. Most other clubs in the chamption league won't leave so much space and have the players that control the mid-field a lot better. Or if not they are good at parking the bus and refuse to give Ole the gaps in defence he wanted to see from an opposition.

Ole can win the PL if the quality of coaches at the other big 4 club is poor. But Man City have Guardiola, Liverpool have Klopp and Chelsea have Tuchel. All top modern attacking coaches. They aren't going to give up the fight for the title as easily as other managers.
 

Champ

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People are abusing that saying to hell and back. The actual sign of a good team is one that performs well most weeks and wins stuff.
You mean like City against Spurs, or Liverpool against Chelsea, or Chelsea against Zenit etc etc ad infitum...
 

MattofManchester

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Agree with most of what you said. But if Ole does win a trophy this year hypothetically let’s say it’s the league will either the mentality or what they do in coaching change for the better?
I'd say my opinion of the coaching at the moment would change if we do, given I can't see us winning the league over City and Chelsea. I feel we'll have another season with too many draws and a few "Sheffield" results.
Anyway back to the point, it's hard to say. We have no idea how our players would continue in such a situation, but right now they don't really inspire confidence.