Weak Mentality vs Weak Coaching

Mr.Ridiculous__

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Ole is a horrendous manager and we aren't winning anything with him. This team will raise our hopes and optimism and then like clockwork dash them to the ground.
 

432JuanMata

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Obviously Ole will get questions over tonight we were absolutely destroyed and he put Fred in CM by himself 2nd half which is we’re we needed extra to try and keep possession.
The other big thing is this showed how bad our midfield really is
 

largelyworried

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We couldn't hold the ball. That lack of composure and authority in possession led to everything else that came after - the waves of attacks and the total lack of any reply from us. We struggle even with eleven men to pass our way through any sort of press, so this situation really hit a weak spot.

It's hard to believe it's the individuals when you look at the quality in the team. Just how good do they have to be before we can pass the ball from back to front?
 

Dominos

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Our passing, touch and cohesion is not top level at the best of times. I say it every game, our ball retention to me does not look like that of a top team. Anyone who watched our games agaisnt Southampton and Wolves recently would see what I'm talking about. As soon as I saw the red card tonight I knew we'd lose. We cannot keep the ball like a top team should and this is 3 years into the current regime, City would have had at least 50% possession if they were in that 2nd half tonight even with 10 men.
 

432JuanMata

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You can’t really account for what Lingard did though? Otherwise it would have been a decent point. They played the game of their lives.
They played well and obviously I’ve never seen them play before so you could be right but we let them play
 

littleman

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A little bit more than a year ago we had posters on this forum RAVING about McKenna as a genius.

Utter tripe shite
 

VidaRed

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Our opponents always play the game of their lives if we lose, according to some of you lot. You dispatch these clowns. You would say the same for Newcastle if we dropped points. They were average as they come, but we were utter shit and pathetic.
Watch YB get spanked by villareal and atlanta.
 

Redlyn

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I was team Ole until today. This was embarrassing. No composure, no plan, no heart and no brain.
Me too. Today is the day that did it for me. He is not good enough to take us to the next step.
 

Flexdegea

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People have a right to be upset.

We just upset by a Swiss team called young boys :lol: if this was Liverpool we'd be laughing our heads off.
They can be upset but need a bit of context.

Absolute hyperbolic shite this thread to be honest :lol:


I'd be laughing as well if it was Liverpool and milner squared that pass at the end :lol::lol::lol:
 

Redlyn

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We would have come away with a point if not for a shocking individual mistake?
The point would have just papered over cracks. That performance is not acceptable for a team of our stature and squad. It looked like we were 2 men down.
 

The Hilton

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Do you think not even having a shot against Young boys with 10 men is poor? Maybe to do with subs or poor coaching/tactics?

To me, accepting that shocking performance/result on a red card, deflection and error is pretty naive.
It was poor going forward, no doubt, but we were resolute.

Just because I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram and making statements that are the opposite of the truth like OP doesn't mean I'm not disappointed, but mentality and strength under adversity is pretty much the strongest area of our team. The thread should be "why were we so poor at keeping the ball".
 

reelworld

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Coaching for sure.
I wanted Ole to succeed badly at United, but I don't think he have the ability to do it.

The way I see it, Ole never think that keeping possession is important, unlike our other rivals coaches. The way you see our midfield playing under Ole, it was quick transition and high risk passes to try opening up the defense 90% of the time. Which would work well if you're playing counter attacks, but would not be effective if you're playing a well organized team who played low block defense.
Tonight match just highlight this even more. Because when you're down 10 men then keeping possession isn't a luxury anymore, it' become a necessity. And I think it's the same reason why United under Ole have crumbled late in matches when they have something to hold on too. They can't see out matches because they can't hold on to the ball.
 

charlenefan

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Aren’t making mistakes down to lack of mental toughness?
You're tarnishing the entire squad because of a mistake from Lingard?
 

Offside

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It really is mental how often teams play really well against us and look shite against other teams. It’s because we are incapable of keeping the ball.
 

yipthatman

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It really is mental how often teams play really well against us and look shite against other teams. It’s because we are incapable of keeping the ball.
Or they are game raising when playing the mighty Manchester United.
 

VanDeBank

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We didn't. We looked more assured of dealing with crosses, but we didn't look stable in playing it out, transitions or keeping the ball and keeping it simple. Whether it was 3 at the back or 2, we didn't regain any form of control on the game itself.
Were you expecting us to dominate the game with 10 men in the fecking champions league? What the hell?
Our goal wasn't to gain control of the game. WE WERE DOWN TO 10 ffs. Our goal was to defend our lead and keep some sort of pacy counter threat up top.

We looked like swiss cheese after the red card and nice and compact after the change.

A brainfart is a crack right? Somebody lost concentration and boom there goes the points.

Mentality or coaching, whatever the reason, when things are not going our way I don't trust the team to hold onto any sort of lead. Even a 2-0 lead I still worry. That must change.
No, you use crack to describe a failure in a structure. Our team didn't fail. We defended well as a unit.. Jlingz brain fart is an individual mistake.
 

VP89

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Were you expecting us to dominate the game with 10 men in the fecking champions league? What the hell?
Our goal wasn't to gain control of the game. WE WERE DOWN TO 10 ffs. Our goal was to defend our lead and keep some sort of pacy counter threat up top.

We looked like swiss cheese after the red card and nice and compact after the change.
Read my post again. I didn't say that. We needed to win more control back than we did, I never once inferred we should pen them in their half but at a minimum not be at 6s and 7s in our own box playing hoof ball against a team of nobodies. 10 men or 11, it's wholly unacceptable. I've seen far far better performances from other sides with 10 men than this one.
 

Redlyn

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You can’t really account for what Lingard did though? Otherwise it would have been a decent point. They played the game of their lives.
I think I finally flipped to Ole out somewhere in the 2nd half. Before the error. It's really the performance that did it for me. The last straw. Its not about the result so the error is more of less irrelevant to how I feel about it. We are lacking the compusure and presence of a team with a good squad aiming to win everything.
 

skc_18

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Last year we finished 2nd place but most were down to luck/individual brilliance.
Everyone knows this is one of the best squads in the europe. Only addition would be a CDM and no team has 11 world-class players in each position.
So if we are not achieving well this season then Ole and his team deserves criticism. Even playing with 10, we should be able to contain.

That is the problem I see with coaching. Our team is good at counter-attack and thats it.
We seem to continuously bottle it up when put under pressure and cant seem to play any kind of possession football even when we have a very fit squad and very good passers. This is definitely down to coaching and I see no improvement in last couple of years.

Having said that, today's result is down to two individual mistakes. We will always have these kind of matches and we will have to accept that. As long as it is learnt and not repeated we should be okay.
Also you have to give credit to Ole that the squad he has built is very good and his successor will benefit from it unlike his predecessors.
 

2 man midfield

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I think the mentality definitely is an issue. I don’t know if anyone else got this vibe, but after we scored the first goal I noticed our players getting a bit complacent. A few too many flicks, skills and dallying on the ball. Like we thought we were there already.

Obviously the red card was what fecked it, but I remember it annoying me.
 

RDCR07

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Read my post again. I didn't say that. We needed to win more control back than we did, I never once inferred we should pen them in their half but at a minimum not be at 6s and 7s in our own box playing hoof ball against a team of nobodies. 10 men or 11, it's wholly unacceptable. I've seen far far better performances from other sides with 10 men than this one.
And what do you put down to? Players or management not drilling their ideas into the players during training?
 

VP89

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And what do you put down to? Players or management not drilling their ideas into the players during training?
100% managers not drilling players. Ole is not a coach in the tactical sense like Tuchel or Pep would be. He has said it himself he prefers to focus more on the mentality. SAF was similar but he was smart enough to know which were the good coaches to hire. If Ole can't do the tactical stuff he will fall on his sword if he fails to delegate appropriately.

You look at Tuchel the way his side held their own versus Liverpool - it was broadly the same side that were gifting goals for fun under Lampard 9 months prior. The difference in a quality detail driven coach is night and day.
 

Chicharo

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Whether it is due to mentality, complacency or whatever, YB definitively looked far more determined than us,especially after the red card. They were everywhere. Sometimes it seemed it was 12 against 9, not 11 against 10
We simply have to win our next game, or else we could find ourselves in a very uncomfortable position.And we all know how bad we look when we know we have to win the last game to progress into the next stage, which might the situation if we screw up again.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Our coaching just isn't up to par with the world's best.

We're going up against one of the best managers of all time and another who's one of the best coaches in the past 10-20 years.

We're not a team that's more than the sum of their parts.
 

House Mkhitaryan

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It's so frustrating to see all this talent and know that it is going to get squandered here. Good managers are going to make their teams more than the sum of it's parts; poor managers just the opposite.

The only difference I can see between Ole, Lampard and Arteta is quality of squad. Luckily for Ole (unluckily for us), individual brilliance has got him just enough performances to allow him to keep his job. But he is miles behind Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, etc.
 

Revan

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Nonsense. We showed some real character holding on the way we did. I literally was ready to post how proud I was of the players for their attitude.

Can't plan around brain farts unfortunately.



But we didn't. We fought valiant and gave away our well fought point through a brainfart.
It was fecking Young Boys. Their entire team combined cost less than Wan Bissaka, and their yearly salary is lower than Ronaldo's.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Nonsense. We showed some real character holding on the way we did. I literally was ready to post how proud I was of the players for their attitude.

Can't plan around brain farts unfortunately.



But we didn't. We fought valiant and gave away our well fought point through a brainfart.
Standards are down the fecking toliet :lol:

It was Young Boys. Not Pep's Barcelona ffs.
 

sullydnl

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100% managers not drilling players. Ole is not a coach in the tactical sense like Tuchel or Pep would be. He has said it himself he prefers to focus more on the mentality. SAF was similar but he was smart enough to know which were the good coaches to hire. If Ole can't do the tactical stuff he will fall on his sword if he fails to delegate appropriately.

You look at Tuchel the way his side held their own versus Liverpool - it was broadly the same side that were gifting goals for fun under Lampard 9 months prior. The difference in a quality detail driven coach is night and day.
Yep, Tuchel's impact is a good comparison point.





The impact of better coaching almost immediately evident.

In terms of coaching our current side looks more like Lampard's Chelsea than Tuchel's Chelsea, just with better individual players (which will often be enough to overcome average coaching, but not always).

If people are unwilling to accept that it's a fatal flaw in Solskjaer's management, they should at least be willing to accept that it's something he has to address by hiring better coaches. Because if people don't see the problem in how we play compared to other top sides then they either have their head in the sand or just don't understand what they're seeing.
 

VP89

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Yep, Tuchel's impact is a good comparison point.





The impact of better coaching almost immediately evident.

In terms of coaching our current side looks more like Lampard's Chelsea than Tuchel's Chelsea, just with better individual players (which will often be enough to overcome average coaching, but not always).

If people are unwilling to accept that it's a fatal flaw in Solskjaer's management, they should at least be willing to accept that it's something he has to address by hiring better coaches. Because if people don't see the problem in how we play compared to other top sides then they either have their head in the sand or just don't understand what they're seeing.
Exactly.

Thing is, we shouldn't need to use supporting stats (as spot on as they are) because even a simple eye test will tell you that we are freestyling our passages of play going forward. Our manager's pedigree is dependent on keeping a strong morale among the players, putting them in the right position and trusting star players to do their thing. I often find it's the whole "great players will find a way to play together" approach under Ole. Of course he has a vision of what he wants from the team from a mentality standpoint, not losing our heads, wanting to win every game and not get complacent etc.

However we never control games. 4-1 to Newcastle was misleading as a result, Wolves was never in our control, Southampton we failed to control, of course today we failed to get a slice of control that we were more than able to get with 10 men. This is also the case since last year, its all too familiar a pattern. He is capable of getting the team on a tremendous run but often falls short on crunch moments. This season he is going to be held accountable for clangers and today was a huge, huge clanger.

I'd argue we need to probably win all the rest of our games to top the group. This means the opportunity to rest key players during the congested periods of the fixture list goes out the window too.
 

MrSingh2002

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It was also two individual mistakes caused by players.
Players he chooses to have in the squad and lineup.

Players he places his faith in for the opening Champions League game in a potentially tricky looking group.

Ole has no excuses anymore. Ole Out thread won't be too long away I feel.
 

RDCR07

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Get a grip. Besides the goal they hardly created anything in the 2nd half and we would all be saying it was a decent hard fought point with 10 men
Well we didn’t get a point did we? Isn’t that why we were asking is it down to the players? Or not having good coaching?
 

arthurka

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Yep, Tuchel's impact is a good comparison point.





The impact of better coaching almost immediately evident.

In terms of coaching our current side looks more like Lampard's Chelsea than Tuchel's Chelsea, just with better individual players (which will often be enough to overcome average coaching, but not always).

If people are unwilling to accept that it's a fatal flaw in Solskjaer's management, they should at least be willing to accept that it's something he has to address by hiring better coaches. Because if people don't see the problem in how we play compared to other top sides then they either have their head in the sand or just don't understand what they're seeing.
Spot on..
 

RDCR07

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Yep, Tuchel's impact is a good comparison point.





The impact of better coaching almost immediately evident.

In terms of coaching our current side looks more like Lampard's Chelsea than Tuchel's Chelsea, just with better individual players (which will often be enough to overcome average coaching, but not always).

If people are unwilling to accept that it's a fatal flaw in Solskjaer's management, they should at least be willing to accept that it's something he has to address by hiring better coaches. Because if people don't see the problem in how we play compared to other top sides then they either have their head in the sand or just don't understand what they're seeing.
Good post. Difference is Chelsea set their emotions aside and sacked their club legend Lampard but we have Ole a new three year contract.
 

Hammondo

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Yep, Tuchel's impact is a good comparison point.





The impact of better coaching almost immediately evident.

In terms of coaching our current side looks more like Lampard's Chelsea than Tuchel's Chelsea, just with better individual players (which will often be enough to overcome average coaching, but not always).

If people are unwilling to accept that it's a fatal flaw in Solskjaer's management, they should at least be willing to accept that it's something he has to address by hiring better coaches. Because if people don't see the problem in how we play compared to other top sides then they either have their head in the sand or just don't understand what they're seeing.
He's a fantastic manager and United fans would hate him. He wouldn't be playing close to the same lineups we have been, nor playing the same type of football.