We're in decline, losing out to City | Improving under Mourinho? | Old Bump, Sorry

NJM78

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I grasped everything just fine. Your excamation point means nothing given neither season is comparable at this stage other than the slow start.

Points are all relative. You stick to your view that a 7pt gap is unrecoverable with 29 games of the season left to play (christ). I'l stick round mine that it's far too early to be predicting anything at this stage.
We have played 10 not 9. This you definitely cannot grasp.

Also I did not compare the two seasons, I compared my own opinion of the outcome of two seasons and the time frame in which I came to both outcomes. Which were both for very different reasons - this point is very relative.

But yes let's please move on.
 
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Gentleman Jim

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Just to clear up a couple of factual inaccuracies from this thread, since the takeover in 2008 City have had the same number of full time Managers as United (4) and have won 3 domestic Cups as opposed to United's 3.
 
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VP89

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We have played 10 not 9. This you definitely cannot grasp.

Also I did not compare the two seasons, I compared my own opinion of the outcome of two seasons and the time frame in which I came to both outcomes. Which were both for very different reasons - this point is very relative.

But yes let's please move.
Ah yes, sorry. 10 games played, making it 28 games left to play this season and therefore a massive, massive difference to the point I made.

All I said is, you can't use last season's prediction to bolster your claim about this season. I don't give a shite about LVGs season or anyone's predictions. We can move on, and you are more than welcome to keep your own opinion of ruling us out of top 4 with 29 games left to play to make up a 7pt gap.

Also I said points are all relative in the way of game points (15 for us and 22 for Chelsea who are 4th). I wasn't talking about your 'point' then.
 

Stacks

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Yes we do have some individual pace, I meant more as a team, we have only attacked with speed and fluidity against Leicester, Fenerbache, Stoke and Burnley but most of the time our transition has not been quick enough due to players selected who are simply not good enough. Also when Rashford is finally played as the number 9 we'll be a lot more effective against the better teams as in my opinion having a quick and mobile focal point in attack is a must for me.
Martial also needs to play when fit, so too Micky who would belong in the Lingard level of pace but then being an all round better player for me. Jose has the tools at his disposal for sure and when he finally identifies our best 11 we will be better of course. For me though to get us back challenging we should never include the likes of Rooney, Fellaini, Lingard, Rojo, Young as starters in that best 11 and from next season I would also include Zlatan, Valencia and Blind. So all in all I think we have improved over the last two managers in terms of playing style (if not points) but I think we would still need to buy a top CB to partner Bailly. A proper RB and a holding midfielder who can dictate play like Carrick can but a younger, fitter and quicker version. Do that and I think we can seriously challenge for the title next year.
that's because they were fairly easy games where our opponents were all over the place. Its more a tactical thing. play like this vs everyone and we win more games. But some games we play too slow and wait for a piece of magic from someone
 

RedChip

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If a team has a football philosophy, it will appoint a manager like Pep.... Therefore a team that appoints a manager like Pep must have a football philosphy.

This is a converse error, the most basic form of an invalid argument in logic. The problem is that having a football philosphy might not be the only condition for appointing a manager like Pep. It could be something else. For example, if a team has a lot of money, it can appoint a manager like Pep. If a team has an ex Barcelona exec... Therefore appointing Pep could have resulted from something else other than a football philosophy. So those arguing City have a football philosophy because they appointed Pep could be well off the mark.

Just a thought!
 

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Summed up beautifully LVGs time here! I think Jose has signed well in Pogba Bailly and Zlatan (Mkytarin we need to wait) I think another few signings and we will be closer to the team Jose wants. We are lacking in certain areas and Jose needs time and money to rectify it!
what team does he need and what areas does he lack? Herrera is proving our best DMC, He paid handsomely for Pogba, and Miki, Shaw and Martial were Jose targets at Chelsea, Mata is becoming a key player for him, De Gea is a saint. so really only RB, CB and CM should he be looking at unless he just wants to continue burning money because he can't use players properly like LVG.....
 

Lawman

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what team does he need and what areas does he lack? Herrera is proving our best DMC, He paid handsomely for Pogba, and Miki, Shaw and Martial were Jose targets at Chelsea, Mata is becoming a key player for him, De Gea is a saint. so really only RB, CB and CM should he be looking at unless he just wants to continue burning money because he can't use players properly like LVG.....
Herrera is not a defensive midfielder so you're answering your own question there. Plus we are still short of quality in wide areas in my opinion (maybe one more top wide man needed). We also need a centre back so there's 3 before we even look to see if Rashford or Martial are good enough to replace Zlatan the following season. So not much in opinions apart from I think we need a wide man. 3 players who would all start in the 11 would make a huge difference.
 

Stacks

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Herrera is not a defensive midfielder so you're answering your own question there. Plus we are still short of quality in wide areas in my opinion (maybe one more top wide man needed). We also need a centre back so there's 3 before we even look to see if Rashford or Martial are good enough to replace Zlatan the following season. So not much in opinions apart from I think we need a wide man. 3 players who would all start in the 11 would make a huge difference.
Not really because he is performing there to a high standard even compared to his competitors at our rivals so there is no reason why he cannot make it his own. Just like Neither De Bruyne nor Silva are out and out CM, so do City need to buy some then? perhaps not as they play there to a high standard.

Both Mikihitaryan and Martial were superb out wide last season. If Jose cannot get the most out of him then that is a coaching problem. What more do you need? We spent over £60 million on them (potentially £80 million) and Jose actually wanted both players within the last 12 months. He bid for Martial at Chelsea and bought Miki himself. I would not allow him to waste clubs money on another wide player if he will just fail in the market haemorrhaging money.

We cannot exempt Jose from being judged or meeting any standards simply because he is 3 players short of his dream team. I can make that argument for all our rivals. They could all do with 3 additional 1st teamers, yet they are still producing, simply because their managers can get something out of their players, can rely on tactics and motivation, not rely purely on individuals, so do not need to spend massive amounts replacing their whole 1st team.
 

Lawman

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Not really because he is performing there to a high standard even compared to his competitors at our rivals so there is no reason why he cannot make it his own. Just like Neither De Bruyne nor Silva are out and out CM, so do City need to buy some then? perhaps not as they play there to a high standard.

A bit different to Herrera playing as a play making 6 he doesn't have the skill set to do it game in game out. Plus Herrera is not in the same league performance wise or as a player as either De Bruyne or Silva.

Both Mikihitaryan and Martial were superb out wide last season. If Jose cannot get the most out of him then that is a coaching problem. What more do you need? We spent over £60 million on them (potentially £80 million) and Jose actually wanted both players within the last 12 months. He bid for Martial at Chelsea and bought Miki himself. I would not allow him to waste clubs money on another wide player if he will just fail in the market haemorrhaging money.

He also had Hazard and Willian as competition at Chelsea we have Lingard and Depay as a fall back (or Mata who is like a square peg in that position) So we do need a 3rd imo.

We cannot exempt Jose from being judged or meeting any standards simply because he is 3 players short of his dream team. I can make that argument for all our rivals. They could all do with 3 additional 1st teamers, yet they are still producing, simply because their managers can get something out of their players, can rely on tactics and motivation, not rely purely on individuals, so do not need to spend massive amounts replacing their whole 1st team.[/QUOTE]

The season is still young we should look at this come end of the season but Jose I think will get United above Chelsea and Liverpool before then end of the season. Pep inherited a better squad in my opinion and has spend just as much as Jose so far.
 

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I really hope we get above Chelsea and Liverpool and 'tis true, the season is very very young. Jose just needs to find his best team (or play the best ones on paper) and get the motivated and firing some how. We should have the individual talent to rip teams which is why I question people who say he has poor squad to work with. We know Martial can burn his FB and has goals in him. On past performance Miki has shown he has goals in him (double figures). Pogba has shown he has goals in him, Zlatan has goals in him, Mata has goals in him (double figures every season). sheeez. At one point, virtually all our attackers have scored in abundance for a player in their position. From my perspective, the managers job is to make it work with players who have proved it before, rather than replace everyone, and I shall judge him on this accordingly.

EDIT : just to add, many of our players are just fresh from their best individual seasons ever. Zlatan, Miki (although he had a great Shaktar season, Bundesliga more impressive) Martial, Pogba, Rashford, Smalling (although he still has question marks) De Gea? If they all fail to maintain we should question. Again it is still super early. Lets revisit at match week 22 or something
 
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Lawman

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I really hope we get above Chelsea and Liverpool and 'tis true, the season is very very young. Jose just needs to find his best team (or play the best ones on paper) and get the motivated and firing some how. We should have the individual talent to rip teams which is why I question people who say he has poor squad to work with. We know Martial can burn his FB and has goals in him. On past performance Miki has shown he has goals in him (double figures). Pogba has shown he has goals in him, Zlatan has goals in him, Mata has goals in him (double figures every season). sheeez. At one point, virtually all our attackers have scored in abundance for a player in their position. From my perspective, the managers job is to make it work with players who have proved it before, rather than replace everyone, and I shall judge him on this accordingly.

EDIT : just to add, many of our players are just fresh from their best individual seasons ever. Zlatan, Miki (although he had a great Shaktar season, Bundesliga more impressive) Martial, Pogba, Rashford, Smalling (although he still has question marks) De Gea? If they all fail to maintain we should question. Again it is still super early. Lets revisit at match week 22 or something
Agree we should revisit but I do think Jose needs another 2 summers before we should judge his team fully. I like his signings so far they look top class to me. Myktarin has a question mark right now but then so did H Larson at this stage of his Celtic career and look how that turned out! Zlatan will score 20+ imo.
 

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@Theonas Could it not be argued that Mourinho left a very good foundation at Chelsea first time round? And in fact his work there allowed for continuity regardless of manager.
Grant came in and got to a Cl final and took the title race to the final day. Scolari came in and although his record wasn't as good as Grants, Chelsea still remained competitive and under Hiddink won the Fa Cup and got to the Cl semi finals.
Now that's three managers who at the highest club level have pretty much atrocious or non existinant records.
The Chelsea team and playing style remained predominantly the same during that period. Ancelotti came in and they were Champions again.
After that though is where I think they lost the plot, the desire to replicate Barca football, signing players who previously wouldn't really fit the bill of the successful 2004-2010 sides, acquiring interim managers. This is where it got random, funny though because they still went and won the Champions League, which was a total travesty fwiw.

But yeah I think the Mourinho way worked for them and that's pretty much what they went back to in 2013, last season is unexplainable but now with Conte I see a similarity, favouring strong, athletic and dedicated players. Prioritising solid defending first, happy to play without the ball. It might be basic as you said but it's still an identity and if implemented properly with the right players can be successful.

As far as the situation of us playing players out of position under Lvg , whilst I agree other big clubs do it, they tend to do it in fluid set ups where you're allowed to be creative and interchange positions. Under Lvg we were playing several players out of position in a ridiculously rigid set up where Lvg wanted players sticking to their zones and not taking too many risks. It was completely unworkable and basically led to the worse football we're ever likely to bare witness to as United fans.
Not only could it be argued, it is as close to a fact as it can get. I am in total agreement there. It was his team that was still playing up unti even the CL win I'd argue. My point though is that he doesn't build a team that can have continuity from a "footballing" point of view. A team that has a clear tactical vision and tries to implement and adopt it every game through an obsessive desire to perfect it. His influence was more about the mental side of the game. He instilled a terrifyingly strong mentality for that team and had lieutenants in Terry, Lampard, Drogba and Cech to enforce it and keep it. I do think he is one of the best managers at man management and players psychology in the history of the game. You might argue that influence is influence regardless of how it comes about. To which I'd argue that his type of influence needs personalities, whereas one that is built on more of a footballing vision requires talent. The former is more difficult to come by, not to mention, not exactly exciting. The latter is what the entire footballing community is dedicated to. I actually think that the reason he didn't work as well with his last two clubs is the lack of personalities he enjoyed with Porto, Chelsea and Inter. The type of players who will go to war with him and for him and who more importantly, do not mind playing an ultra defensive game. He suddenly had people like Ramos, Ronaldo, Hazard, Fàbregas who fancied themselves as equals to the clubs Mourinho was reacting to which broke that bond he built with his past players.

When you say the Mourinho way works, it is hard to argue as they actually won the title. I do however think that England is probably the only big league where a tactic as simple as sitting deep and pinching a goal can work to such devastating effect. Leicester who we can all agree are far from footballing elite made it work as well. This limitation was exposed in Europe and I do think that with this new era of the PL, it might get exposed even further. All speculations though.

Your last point about LvG is really in the eye of the beholder. Pep according to most of his former player is at least as anal about keeping position. He went as far as sub the great Henry because he dared move centrally when he was supposed to play on the left (he had scored). LvG like Pep insist on a very strict positional game. The first step of which is to position yourself in positions all over the pitch that ensure you have more men than your opponent at any given situation so you always have passing options and win the ball back as quickly as possible. The second step is when you are in the final third, you pass the precision and fluidity that destabilize a defence into tilting into one direction so as to free up space. A good example of that is our goal at Swansea last year (Herrera's I think). LvG actually did well in the first step, we weren't Barcelona but we were the best or second best in the PL (maybe after Spurs) which is one of the reasons we had high possession stats and a very good defensive record. The second part, however, was a horrible failure. if I rate the former 7/10, I would rate the latter a 3. This is of course LvG's responsibility. He simply could not make it work either because his front players did not have the profile needed, maybe injuries or maybe plain and simple, he is not as competent as someone like Guardiola.
 

Polite Poster

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Guys it's really quite simple.

The people running your club know how to leverage the brand but football ? They don't have a fecking clue.

Mourinho is a busted flush.

You are fecked !

Suck it up. You've seen the good times now experience what other football fans feel.

Life is good !
 

Invictus

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Guys it's really quite simple.

The people running your club know how to leverage the brand but football ? They don't have a fecking clue.

Mourinho is a busted flush.

You are fecked !

Suck it up. You've seen the good times now experience what other football fans feel.

Life is good !
Take a couple days off to re-evaluate your approach, thank you very much! :)
 

marlowe78

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Guys it's really quite simple.

The people ruining your club know how to leverage the brand but football ? They don't have a fecking clue.

Mourinho is a busted flush.

You are fecked !

Suck it up. You've seen the good times now experience what other football fans feel.

Life is good !
Fixed.
 

Ronetta

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Take a couple days off to re-evaluate your approach, thank you very much! :)
Fair enough - he was out of order and most of what he wrote was tripe.

The one bit in there that perhaps is true though is that all clubs have their difficult spells and for some those spells can go on an awfully long time. Imagine how Newcastle supporters feel, having not won the league since 1927!

If it takes a few more years to rebuild and get back to the top, that is *nothing* compared to what other fans have had to endure. I think you need somehow to find a way to take the pressure off Mourinho and give him the time and space to fix things, without having to look over his shoulder every game. Sacking a third successive manager would only make things worse, imho.
 

Stacks

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Fair enough - he was out of order and most of what he wrote was tripe.

The one bit in there that perhaps is true though is that all clubs have their difficult spells and for some those spells can go on an awfully long time. Imagine how Newcastle supporters feel, having not won the league since 1927!

If it takes a few more years to rebuild and get back to the top, that is *nothing* compared to what other fans have had to endure. I think you need somehow to find a way to take the pressure off Mourinho and give him the time and space to fix things, without having to look over his shoulder every game. Sacking a third successive manager would only make things worse, imho.
AT one point we went 25 years without a title. When I think of that I feel calm. My Dad has supported United since the 60's so he had to endure that nonsense. It is what it is. The lifeline is we will always be within touching distance but obviously we don't want to become Liverpool or Arsenal. Clearly the days of multiple titles in a short spell are well and truly over
 

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Out of the 14 years I've been on here I would say the last 3 have been the hardest. Just holding back, trying not to get banned...:D

And @Stacks what do you mean about not becoming the next Liverpool? Retired legendary manager, leaving your club in doldrums after a long run of domestic and European success. Followed by short, sharp spending (throwing) of money at the next David Speedie. Then panic managerial changes. You're everything Liverpool is but in a more concentrated span of time. :)
 

Invictus

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Fair enough - he was out of order and most of what he wrote was tripe.

The one bit in there that perhaps is true though is that all clubs have their difficult spells and for some those spells can go on an awfully long time. Imagine how Newcastle supporters feel, having not won the league since 1927!

If it takes a few more years to rebuild and get back to the top, that is *nothing* compared to what other fans have had to endure. I think you need somehow to find a way to take the pressure off Mourinho and give him the time and space to fix things, without having to look over his shoulder every game. Sacking a third successive manager would only make things worse, imho.
Yep, agree with the entirety of your post. As a supportbase (especially us millennials), we're at times guilty of being too spoilt and soft, getting too accustomed to winning and not keeping things is perspective, while yearning for perpetual success. The most prominent source for our 2 decade long winning streak is gone, and decision-makers have dug a hole for themselves by creating a revolving door at the managerial position, in stark contrast with the consistency of approach during Fergie's reign - which is being reflected in almost every facet of the sporting side of the club.

When the third successive manager is almost as many years is under pressure to arrest the decline, you have to take a step back and realize that rot has truly settled in, and one might argue that José is facing the greatest degree of incoherence + talent and experience and mentality drain - with no quick-fix solution in sight.

Regardless of general opinions pertaining to his decline as a manager and as man, Mourinho does need a hell lot more time to try and turn things around, and do things his way - as opposed to second guessing his decisions from the get go, and inviting pressure on him 4 months in, rather than towards the end of his contract. As bad as things are right now, it's not inconceivable for him for him too fashion a winning unit and improve the team, while undertaking a nuts and bolts overhaul of the squad:


Chelsea weren't quite as poor as we currently are - that's a fair statement, and it all did end in tears, with him committing a lot of unforced errors along the way, but there's a general sense of him needing to be backed (by the highers ups and the players, and on a spiritual level - the supporters) at a time of crisis.
 

Stacks

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Out of the 14 years I've been on here I would say the last 3 have been the hardest. Just holding back, trying not to get banned...:D

And @Stacks what do you mean about not becoming the next Liverpool? Retired legendary manager, leaving your club in doldrums after a long run of domestic and European success. Followed by short, sharp spending (throwing) of money at the next David Speedie. Then panic managerial changes. You're everything Liverpool is but in a more concentrated span of time. :)
How very dare you. I have noticed a few references to our past successes (mostly under Ferguson) when ever someone talks about Man City being the "team to beat, biggest side in Manchester, club to join in Manchester etc." We shall see
 

Ronetta

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Regardless of general opinions pertaining to his decline as a manager and as man, Mourinho does need a hell lot more time to try and turn things around, and do things his way - as opposed to second guessing his decisions from the get go, and inviting pressure on him 4 months in, rather than towards the end of his contract. As bad as things are right now, it's not inconceivable for him for him too fashion a winning unit and improve the team, while undertaking a nuts and bolts overhaul of the squad:

Chelsea weren't quite as poor as we currently are - that's a fair statement, and it all did end in tears, with him committing a lot of unforced errors along the way, but there's a general sense of him needing to be backed (by the highers ups and the players, and on a spiritual level - the supporters) at a time of crisis.
I think Mourinho is the best in the business (or at least one of the best) whilst not under pressure. However, when under pressure, he loses it. This was clearly most evident in his latest demise at Chelsea, but when you think about it, it was much the same in all his previous jobs.

And right now, he already looks like he's under intense pressure and his antics are starting to reflect it. This can only go one of two ways imho, either you find some form quickly (which will take the pressure off) or Mourinho will spiral downwards on an inexorable path of self destruction. The club, the fans and the supporters in the media need to get off his back and give him all the support possible if you want to see Mourinho turn things around. And personally, I think it's essential that you do find a way to do that, because the more managers you get through, the more impossible the job becomes for the next manager - it's a vicious circle.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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I know I'm going against policy here, and that this thread will be locked, but I just remembered this when thinking of my darkest day as a United fan. This is where it began.

Bumping to say I told you so, more than 7 years ago. 115 charges, and they will still get away with it all after having broken the game.
 

Plant0x84

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I know I'm going against policy here, and that this thread will be locked, but I just remembered this when thinking of my darkest day as a United fan. This is where it began.

Bumping to say I told you so, more than 7 years ago. 115 charges, and they will still get away with it all after having broken the game.
You’re living in the past, man. Quit living in the past!
 

Big Ben Foster

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Gary Neville got it right: “The average lifespan of a manager is going down by the year. But with a director of football there is far less upheaval and the identity of the club, continuity of the majority of the staff and link between youth and first team remains intact.” While City were making giant strides in terms of building a long-term organizational structure, we have been trying to shoehorn Scots and Dutchmen into SAF's shoes and expecting it to work. Sacking LVG is not a long term solution. Like a thread dedicated to DoF argues, what will we do when Mourinho comes in, reshuffles the squad again for 250m, and then fails? What then? Another manager? Another set of players? A structure is necessary, we haven't addressed it.
Ouch. This is spot on, and exactly what we did and continue to do.
 

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To be fair, a deserved bump and good call. Since then, Pep has won City 5 leagues and a CL and we’ve not got close to winning either and look no closer either.