Wet Markets: what they really are and should they be closed?

The Boy

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I've seen lots of posts here and elsewhere about wet markets and how shutting them down is one thing we must do regardless of cultural sensitivities, but like so many things the way they are portrayed is with a massive bias in western media.

Depending on what you've read, most people think they are disgusting places where live and dead animals are kept next to each other and all sorts of animals are slaughtered there, many assume they are called wet markets because they are knee deep in blood and Chinese people habitually buy bats, pangolins and any other bizarre animal you can think of to munch as a snack on the way home.

Wet markets are in reality food markets, it means they sell fresh meat, fish and veg. They're known as wet markets because sellers use water to clean veg and fish before selling them. If you've been to a farmers market in the UK or France or the US, you've been to a wet market. In most of the seafood markets, the fish and other seafoods are kept alive, and are killed when sold so they are fresh, again as in the UK you can buy live lobsters, crabs and other shellfish for eating.

The big difference is the wildlife markets, which are attached to some wet markets, these should be closed down and China has just banned them (though there are some loopholes for trade in wild animals) These are where you see those horrible pictures of civets or dogs in cages in terrible conditions. China also has farms that keep bears in cages milking their bile, or others where tigers are farmed for their fur and bones. But before we condemn them and scream shut them down we need to look at western farming practices too.


Yes eating meat from wild animals happens in China. But game meat which is popular in Europe and the US is literally wildlife meat. In the US the most popular eaten game is Whitetail deer, Beaver, duck, Elk and squirrel. Venison, wild boar, rabbit and pheasant are popular in Europe. Is this really so different, it is people eating wild meat, so should we ban these as well.

Factory farming in the western world is sometimes also in atrocious conditions, swine flu (H1N1) has been genetically traced to factory pig farms in the US. In fact, last year, a survey of existing research (by Dr. Jason Rohr) found that since 1940, intensive agriculture was associated with more than 25 percent of all infectious diseases that emerged in humans and more than half of all infectious diseases that leaped from animals to humans.

Basically what I am trying to say here is the easy “Ban wet markets they are disgusting” call, which is often well meant, is not that easy. If we try telling China to ban all wetmarkets without understanding what they are and how some Chinese practices that we think are wrong are also present in the west (albeit with different animals) then we will get nowhere. We need to look at meat consumption as a whole globally, game meat in the west, wildlife markets in China, bush meat in Africa etc. We also need to look at our farming practices globally.

TLDR: wet markets are food markets you can’t close them all down. Eating wild animals isn’t as weird as you think it happens all over the world. If we want to stop another virus or disease popping up we need to change practices at home and across the globe and not just blame China.
 

11101

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I have lived in China.

They ARE disgusting places where live and dead animals are kept next to each other. Stalls are crowded together and hygiene is non existent. I don't know exactly what animals are legal and what are not, but i have seen some weird things for sale in there. If you want to buy something they take it out of it's tank or cage and chop it up right in front of you. Most of them don't have refrigeration facilities and stallholders rely on regular trips to a central ice dispenser, so you often see discarded carcasses rotting in the corner before they clear them up at the end of the day. On a hot day you can smell the stench from down the street.


Don't make excuses for them. They are nothing like farmer's markets in the UK, France or the US.
 

Cascarino

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It’s probably not that easy to ban it all. I know large amounts of people from all over the world (often in low income areas) rely on certain markets to be able to sustain themselves. I’ve heard that banning wild animals (which I think China has done for the moment) is a necessity moving forwards.
 

The Boy

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I have lived in China.

They ARE disgusting places where live and dead animals are kept next to each other. Stalls are crowded together and hygiene is non existent. I don't know exactly what animals are legal and what are not, but i have seen some weird things for sale in there. If you want to buy something they take it out of it's tank or cage and chop it up right in front of you. Most of them don't have refrigeration facilities and stallholders rely on regular trips to a central ice dispenser, so you often see discarded carcasses rotting in the corner before they clear them up at the end of the day. On a hot day you can smell the stench from down the street.


Don't make excuses for them. They are nothing like farmer's markets in the UK, France or the US.
I have also spent a lot of time in China as well as living across Asia and Africa, I have also worked closely with factory farms and had plenty of access to them in the UK, .

Yes fish are cut up in front of you, that happens everywhere in the world, some places have better hygiene than others, some are far worse than China. But wet markets are food markets, they take place in hundreds of countries and not just China, the point was you cannot just say China close wet markets, it's wrong.

I am not making excuses for anyone, I'm saying what a wet market is because most people don't know and if you're worried about hygeine go to a housed mega dairy farm in the US or a caged chicken farm in the EU or a factory pork farm in the UK, you'll see fecking terrible things there too.
 

The Boy

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It’s probably not that easy to ban it all. I know large amounts of people from all over the world (often in low income areas) rely on certain markets to be able to sustain themselves. I’ve heard that banning wild animals (which I think China has done for the moment) is a necessity moving forwards.
Agreed they temporarily banned them after SARS but then allowed it again, but is it worse than people eating squirrels, rabbits or beaver in the west? I'm not saying its right, personally I'd ban the eating of all wild animals globally. But I can imagine the fuss, especially in the US if that 'freedom' was taken away so why do so many think its fine to impose this on China.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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I have lived in China.

They ARE disgusting places where live and dead animals are kept next to each other. Stalls are crowded together and hygiene is non existent. I don't know exactly what animals are legal and what are not, but i have seen some weird things for sale in there. If you want to buy something they take it out of it's tank or cage and chop it up right in front of you. Most of them don't have refrigeration facilities and stallholders rely on regular trips to a central ice dispenser, so you often see discarded carcasses rotting in the corner before they clear them up at the end of the day. On a hot day you can smell the stench from down the street.


Don't make excuses for them. They are nothing like farmer's markets in the UK, France or the US.


I also lived there, and yeah they are pretty gross even for a meat eater like myself (and one who isn't afraid of trying the odd weird animal, as long as its not a protected species - I consider myself pretty clued up in that regard).

But one thing to remember is that these markets exist in western countries, there was a video online the other day relating to something like 80 wet markets or something present in major cities in America. If Trump is that pissed off with China's behaviour here, make your own stand Donald and set about exterminating wet markets in your own country as well.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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I have also spent a lot of time in China as well as living across Asia and Africa, I have also worked closely with factory farms and had plenty of access to them in the UK, .

Yes fish are cut up in front of you, that happens everywhere in the world, some places have better hygiene than others, some are far worse than China. But wet markets are food markets, they take place in hundreds of countries and not just China, the point was you cannot just say China close wet markets, it's wrong.

I am not making excuses for anyone, I'm saying what a wet market is because most people don't know and if you're worried about hygeine go to a housed mega dairy farm in the US or a caged chicken farm in the EU or a factory pork farm in the UK, you'll see fecking terrible things there too.
Given we are talking about cross species diseases, unless they started keeping pangolin in pig farms I think you are missing the point.
 

DoomSlayer

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The videos I've seen from these places are horrifying. The conditions are extremely unpleasant.

Of course I don't think the world can dictate anything to China anymore, their influence and power has gotten too big to demand them doing anything that they would feel is discriminatory to them.
 

Sky1981

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The videos I've seen from these places are horrifying. The conditions are extremely unpleasant.

Of course I don't think the world can dictate anything to China anymore, their influence and power has gotten too big to demand them doing anything that they would feel is discriminatory to them.
It is discriminatory. Wet markets are all over asia. Cambodia vietnam india laos indonesia even singapore has their own fresh market albeit probaly cleaner. But it's always the communist china that's being blamed.
 

11101

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I have also spent a lot of time in China as well as living across Asia and Africa, I have also worked closely with factory farms and had plenty of access to them in the UK, .

Yes fish are cut up in front of you, that happens everywhere in the world, some places have better hygiene than others, some are far worse than China. But wet markets are food markets, they take place in hundreds of countries and not just China, the point was you cannot just say China close wet markets, it's wrong.

I am not making excuses for anyone, I'm saying what a wet market is because most people don't know and if you're worried about hygeine go to a housed mega dairy farm in the US or a caged chicken farm in the EU or a factory pork farm in the UK, you'll see fecking terrible things there too.

Three things always stood out for me in Chinese markets that you would never see in Europe; how cramped they are, with live and dead animals kept in close proximity and killed on whatever spare bit of empty table top the stallholder can find; discarded animal parts lying around with no refrigeration; and at the end of each day cleaning is nothing more than a hose pipe to wash the walls down.

I haven't seen anywhere in Europe close to as bad, and one of my cousins owns a slaughter house in the UK so it's not like I've never seen it. After every session the place is cleaned and sterilised from top to bottom and the live animals brought in for slaughter never get anywhere near the dead, which are taken straight into freezers or to be butchered. Killing a living thing is never going to be pretty but in Europe hygiene before and after is taken far more seriously.


I don't think anybody is saying China must close all food markets, but the way they operate the wet markets has to change.
 

DoomSlayer

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It is discriminatory. Wet markets are all over asia. Cambodia vietnam india laos indonesia even singapore has their own fresh market albeit probaly cleaner. But it's always the communist china that's being blamed.
I cannot really judge the situation like that, you might be right. But the scenes I've seen from such places are really disgusting and I'm generally not squeamish about living conditions because my country is not the cleanest, we also have very poor areas.
 

Foxbatt

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It's not the wet markets that are the problem. It's these so called exotic animals and their proximity of these to humans. Then they wash down.
I know that the Chinese would change the way these are operated. Even now in the bigger cities it's changing as more are going to grocery stores.
People blame the Chinese central government just by listening to Western news. But the New York Times has given a detailed information on what exactly happened with this issue and the failures of the system. The Chinese central government never thought that human failures in Wuhan would be the cause of this pandemic.
The Wuhan mayor who has been sacked was the cause why it got so delayed.
The monitoring system was in place after SARS but you also need human input to enter the data into the system and the politicians delayed this causing this human disaster.
Some researchers from UK are now saying that this didn't start in Wuhan in November but somewhere more south in September.
If they are correct there is nothing the Chinese could have done before.
The catastrophe in Europe and in North America and South America is simply because of incompetent governments. Period. Nothing else.
Look at the Philippines. Very poor country with extremely high density population and below average medical care yet their numbers are much lower than in some European or North America. I may accept that their positive cases may be low because of lack of testing but certainly the deaths is something that can be seen and tallied and still around 550 deaths.
They took it very seriously and put a complete lockdown on some areas. Violaters were prosecuted and some times even abused by western standards.
But the fact they did it so early is why it's low. They have even extended it to the 15 of May.
 

Member 60376

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It is discriminatory. Wet markets are all over asia. Cambodia vietnam india laos indonesia even singapore has their own fresh market albeit probaly cleaner. But it's always the communist china that's being blamed.
Yes because in India we don't have the wildlife markets that China and to some extent Vietnam has. Our wet markets are for fish, chicken and goat.

This is not about racism or discrimination. Its a long term problem and one that CCP can fix easily if they want to.

I can see why the common Chinese is pissed off as he doesn't eat wild bush meat. But its a problem and they should ask to fix it instead of what about isms.
 

Sky1981

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I cannot really judge the situation like that, you might be right. But the scenes I've seen from such places are really disgusting and I'm generally not squeamish about living conditions because my country is not the cleanest, we also have very poor areas.
Anyone with a cam can find dirt in almost any nations.

I can't say much about china, but Indonesia has lots of markets, we even have dog markets too (some parts of Indonesian still eat dogs), and bats as well (again some of us eat bats).

Doesn't mean everyone does, dog eating is frowned upon by most Indonesians, and most of us definitely won't touch bats. Problem with western nations is that they find everything wrong about china and make sure to milk it out dry, even when people has come out and says it isn't so. It's a country of 1.3 billion people, you can find any dirt you want there, prostitution, police brutality, oppressed people, animal cruelty but here's the catch... so does every other nations on earth if you look for it.

and some common sense, there are supermarkets, malls in china.

Here's some quotes, this asian dude says it better than me

Stop this. No more racism. No. This didn't come from bat soup. This is unlikely to have come from ANY cooked food source. And Chinese people aren't eating bats. I was once asked if Korean people ate puppies. No. We don't. We eat rice and kimchee. We prepare foods in far more hygienic ways than most westerners will admit. We have skillet shaped noodle strainers. We use large, cured chopsticks to turn meat in individual pieces, achieving the perfect temperature for safety AND a delectable taste and texture. We eat a LOT of fermented garnishes. Radish, cabbage, ginger, carrots and potatoes are our produce staples. Fermented garnish is incredibly healthy but we also cut these fresh. We make lovely shapes for our children or we just make our food a form of art so we can enjoy nourishing our bodies and our souls. We look young longer, suffer fewer heart issues, maintain incredible intelligence and performance and sport glossy hair and luminous skin. We “Asians” are OBVIOUSLY on a better track from a diet standpoint. We don't touch and smash our food into aluminum and plastic wrappers. We don't let sweat and grease drip onto food we serve to others out of a window grimed with fry oil and human smears. We treat our food as a symbolically healthy act as much as a biologically healthy one
Oh.. btw.. here's wet market in some other country









 

Don't Kill Bill

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It's not the wet markets that are the problem. It's these so called exotic animals and their proximity of these to humans. Then they wash down.
I know that the Chinese would change the way these are operated. Even now in the bigger cities it's changing as more are going to grocery stores.
People blame the Chinese central government just by listening to Western news. But the New York Times has given a detailed information on what exactly happened with this issue and the failures of the system. The Chinese central government never thought that human failures in Wuhan would be the cause of this pandemic.
The Wuhan mayor who has been sacked was the cause why it got so delayed.
The monitoring system was in place after SARS but you also need human input to enter the data into the system and the politicians delayed this causing this human disaster.
Some researchers from UK are now saying that this didn't start in Wuhan in November but somewhere more south in September.
If they are correct there is nothing the Chinese could have done before.
The catastrophe in Europe and in North America and South America is simply because of incompetent governments. Period. Nothing else.
Look at the Philippines. Very poor country with extremely high density population and below average medical care yet their numbers are much lower than in some European or North America. I may accept that their positive cases may be low because of lack of testing but certainly the deaths is something that can be seen and tallied and still around 550 deaths.
They took it very seriously and put a complete lockdown on some areas. Violaters were prosecuted and some times even abused by western standards.
But the fact they did it so early is why it's low. They have even extended it to the 15 of May.
1,I disagree, I think it is and as long as they remain as they are we are all more at risk of another virus coming along.

2, The economic catastrophe was unavoidable what ever western govts did.

I don't buy the middle ranking state bureaucrat line that you are peddling either. It is the way all autocratic regimes attempt to deflect blame. Some poor sod down the line gets it in the neck because the glorious leaders can't be at fault.
 

Sky1981

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1,I disagree, I think it is and as long as they remain as they are we are all more at risk of another virus coming along.

2, The economic catastrophe was unavoidable what ever western govts did.

I don't buy the middle ranking state bureaucrat line that you are peddling either. It is the way all autocratic regimes attempt to deflect blame. Some poor sod down the line gets it in the neck because the glorious leaders can't be at fault.


Guess which continents supplies the most diseases and virus?

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/niaid-organization
 

VP

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It is discriminatory. Wet markets are all over asia. Cambodia vietnam india laos indonesia even singapore has their own fresh market albeit probaly cleaner. But it's always the communist china that's being blamed.
Poor China. Helped a virus originate on its soil then couldn't prevent its spread then suppressed the truth and then that virus brought down the world - and yet people still have the audacity to blame them.
 

Sky1981

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Yes because in India we don't have the wildlife markets that China and to some extent Vietnam has. Our wet markets are for fish, chicken and goat.

This is not about racism or discrimination. Its a long term problem and one that CCP can fix easily if they want to.

I can see why the common Chinese is pissed off as he doesn't eat wild bush meat. But its a problem and they should ask to fix it instead of what about isms.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...catching-on/story-OqdvxINt7HMxRZHK0WT5dJ.html

oh sure you dont

https://food.ndtv.com/food-drinks/8-bizarre-foods-indians-eat-708501

Besides porcupine and bear, they eat frogs, snakes, dogs, rats, rabbits, yaks, turtles, barking deer, worms, quails and snails, pigeons and turtle doves, mud-snappers and mallards, what not
https://www.telegraphindia.com/7-days/meats-we-also-eat/cid/1315154
 

utdalltheway

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So, keep things as they are and wait for the disease?
Whatever they’re doing, it’s not working. Maybe a better comparison would be with Japanese wet markets. Aren’t they supposed to be much cleaner? Could the Chinese learn from them?
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Yeah, because i remember the last time human monkeypox disease and powassan virus spread throughout the whole world....

I do agree but to play devil's advocate, someone will probably make that exact same comment about covid19 in 2080.
 

Foxbatt

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1,I disagree, I think it is and as long as they remain as they are we are all more at risk of another virus coming along.

2, The economic catastrophe was unavoidable what ever western govts did.

I don't buy the middle ranking state bureaucrat line that you are peddling either. It is the way all autocratic regimes attempt to deflect blame. Some poor sod down the line gets it in the neck because the glorious leaders can't be at fault.
This is where you don't understand dictatorships. This is exactly why it happens. The mayor of Wuhan is not a small fry. He is a party member and fairly influential. In a democracy this issue would have been raised by the Frontline doctors without referring to any political people.
China is also a much diverse and de centralised than many people realise in a lot of ways. China has an upward accountability only. This way they reward meritocracy. They need to have downward accountability too. Their health system is very decentralised. A lot more than in most western countries.
So it's very understandable that the Wuhan doctors would have reported it to the Wuhan officials who have the capacity to delay it. If the system has worked the doctors would and should have entered the information into the system. I know the Chinese and other Asians.
 

sun_tzu

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Guess which continents supplies the most diseases and virus?

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/niaid-organization
the ones with the most people?

Asia 4.6bn people.......................about 60% of world population
Africa 1.3bn people....................about 17% of world population
Europe 0.75 bn people...............about 10% of world population
Latin America 0.65bn people.....about 8% of world population
North america 0.37bn people... about 5% of world population
Oceania 0.04bn people .............under 1% of world population

Would seem strange that the cultural perception of part of the 15% of people in Europe / America got to dictate what was normal for the other 85% I think
 

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Sure, because you give 3 articles over a span of 15 years and which coincidentally largely proves what I said. Only a couple of the north east states eat anything close to wild bush meat - and that too basically the tribal population who are poor and a minuscule amount of the population.

As I said, instead of tackling the issue head on lets make this a xyz country vs China thing. Because that'll surely solve the problem. Like how the markets were banned when SARS happened. Or H1N1. Oh wait
 

Sky1981

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the ones with the most people?

Asia 4.6bn people.......................about 60% of world population
Africa 1.3bn people....................about 17% of world population
Europe 0.75 bn people...............about 10% of world population
Latin America 0.65bn people.....about 8% of world population
North america 0.37bn people... about 5% of world population
Oceania 0.04bn people .............under 1% of world population

Would seem strange that the cultural perception of part of the 15% of people in Europe / America got to dictate what was normal for the other 85% I think
the 85% controls the whole media of the world though. So therein your perceptions comes from.
 

Henrik Larsson

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Been watching a lot of episodes from this series recently about weird foods people eat around the world.

This one is in Guatemala, where apparently it's normal to have guys prepare a raw cow brain cocktail in the middle of the street in the burning heat in an ice cream cart type of thing.

They also eat wild possums over there, the animals have to be caged for a week without food so it can get rid of all the nasty disease carrying things it ate before, as you can see starting at 33:39





Now at the same time regarding covid-19, it's most definitely not a case where China is blameless.
 

MoskvaRed

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This is where you don't understand dictatorships. This is exactly why it happens. The mayor of Wuhan is not a small fry. He is a party member and fairly influential. In a democracy this issue would have been raised by the Frontline doctors without referring to any political people.
China is also a much diverse and de centralised than many people realise in a lot of ways. China has an upward accountability only. This way they reward meritocracy. They need to have downward accountability too. Their health system is very decentralised. A lot more than in most western countries.
So it's very understandable that the Wuhan doctors would have reported it to the Wuhan officials who have the capacity to delay it. If the system has worked the doctors would and should have entered the information into the system. I know the Chinese and other Asians.
I don’t really understand your post (you say there is upward accountability only and then say they are decentralised) but it sounds like the script of “Chernobyl” - experts report to party hacks who then choose to ignore it.

You also claimed a few weeks back that Russia is handling it well because they do these things well (now 100,000 cases but with suspiciously low mortaliity rates) and also said most Chinese cities have better living conditions than Seoul (admittedly I speak as a tourist, but that is ridiculous, even including Shanghai).

So what’s the deal in consistently speaking up for authoritarianism, whether in China and Russia?
 

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Given we are talking about cross species diseases, unless they started keeping pangolin in pig farms I think you are missing the point.
We’re talking about diseases and problems that jump from animal species to humans and intensive farming has good form here. Look up Swine Flu, BSE, MRSA in Denmark just a few examples of unnaturally close contact between animals causing significant problems in human populations. You don’t need a pangolin to cause diseases.
 

The Boy

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Been watching a lot of episodes from this series recently about weird foods people eat around the world.

This one is in Guatemala, where apparently it's normal to have guys prepare a raw cow brain cocktail in the middle of the street in the burning heat in an ice cream cart type of thing.

They also eat wild possums over there, the animals have to be caged for a week without food so it can get rid of all the nasty disease carrying things it ate before, as you can see starting at 33:39





Now at the same time regarding covid-19, it's most definitely not a case where China is blameless.
This is the point, you can’t just say China must stop wet markets without looking at and potentially banning all the possible flash points globally.
 

Foxbatt

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I don’t really understand your post (you say there is upward accountability only and then say they are decentralised) but it sounds like the script of “Chernobyl” - experts report to party hacks who then choose to ignore it.

You also claimed a few weeks back that Russia is handling it well because they do these things well (now 100,000 cases but with suspiciously low mortaliity rates) and also said most Chinese cities have better living conditions than Seoul (admittedly I speak as a tourist, but that is ridiculous, even including Shanghai).

So what’s the deal in consistently speaking up for authoritarianism, whether in China and Russia?
I have said both are dictatorships. So is Singapore. It doesn't negate the fact that places like Shanghai, Chendu, Shenzhen have a very good life. Same or if not better than Seoul.
The issue is about the covid 19 reporting. I said that the Chinese had a good reporting system installed after SARS. It failed miserably because they didn't count in the human factor that requires input from the doctors who got stopped or delayed by local party chiefs. This is not the fault of the central government but authorities in Wuhan. This is what I mean by de centralised system. The local authorities have a lot of leeway and of course they are all party members but still they are fairly independent of the central government in most cases.
Even the local police is under the local authorities.
 

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It is discriminatory. Wet markets are all over asia. Cambodia vietnam india laos indonesia even singapore has their own fresh market albeit probaly cleaner. But it's always the communist china that's being blamed.
Not totally sure but the anti China propaganda smells like an attempt to escalate to war of some sort.
 

hobbers

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I've seen lots of posts here and elsewhere about wet markets and how shutting them down is one thing we must do regardless of cultural sensitivities, but like so many things the way they are portrayed is with a massive bias in western media.

Depending on what you've read, most people think they are disgusting places where live and dead animals are kept next to each other and all sorts of animals are slaughtered there, many assume they are called wet markets because they are knee deep in blood and Chinese people habitually buy bats, pangolins and any other bizarre animal you can think of to munch as a snack on the way home.

Wet markets are in reality food markets, it means they sell fresh meat, fish and veg. They're known as wet markets because sellers use water to clean veg and fish before selling them. If you've been to a farmers market in the UK or France or the US, you've been to a wet market. In most of the seafood markets, the fish and other seafoods are kept alive, and are killed when sold so they are fresh, again as in the UK you can buy live lobsters, crabs and other shellfish for eating.

The big difference is the wildlife markets, which are attached to some wet markets, these should be closed down and China has just banned them (though there are some loopholes for trade in wild animals) These are where you see those horrible pictures of civets or dogs in cages in terrible conditions. China also has farms that keep bears in cages milking their bile, or others where tigers are farmed for their fur and bones. But before we condemn them and scream shut them down we need to look at western farming practices too.


Yes eating meat from wild animals happens in China. But game meat which is popular in Europe and the US is literally wildlife meat. In the US the most popular eaten game is Whitetail deer, Beaver, duck, Elk and squirrel. Venison, wild boar, rabbit and pheasant are popular in Europe. Is this really so different, it is people eating wild meat, so should we ban these as well.

Factory farming in the western world is sometimes also in atrocious conditions, swine flu (H1N1) has been genetically traced to factory pig farms in the US. In fact, last year, a survey of existing research (by Dr. Jason Rohr) found that since 1940, intensive agriculture was associated with more than 25 percent of all infectious diseases that emerged in humans and more than half of all infectious diseases that leaped from animals to humans.

Basically what I am trying to say here is the easy “Ban wet markets they are disgusting” call, which is often well meant, is not that easy. If we try telling China to ban all wetmarkets without understanding what they are and how some Chinese practices that we think are wrong are also present in the west (albeit with different animals) then we will get nowhere. We need to look at meat consumption as a whole globally, game meat in the west, wildlife markets in China, bush meat in Africa etc. We also need to look at our farming practices globally.

TLDR: wet markets are food markets you can’t close them all down. Eating wild animals isn’t as weird as you think it happens all over the world. If we want to stop another virus or disease popping up we need to change practices at home and across the globe and not just blame China.

Most people are well aware of the nuances of wet markets. Usually part of them deal in fresh food and have somewhat reasonable hygiene practices associated with animal slaughter and preparing fresh food. They're not a massive danger in terms of spawning pathogenic viruses. Nobody in the know is saying these have to be closed.

The other part of the equation is the wild animal market, and these have got to be shut down, period. And unlike with SARS1, this time China has to make their closures permanent and not turn a blind eye because the right people in government get paid off. That's why this outbreak is irrefutably China's fault. They had the warning shot and failed to respond to it. And then to make matters worse did their own 'Soviet Union during Chernobyl' act and first turned a blind eye, and then desperately tried to cover it up. Communist regimes and public health disasters - never a good mix.

Comparing wild animal markets with wild meats like game or venison is a false equivalency. The issue has nothing to do with the meat being 'wild'. It's the fact that in these markets dozens or hundreds of different species of wild animal are kept alive in close proximity. There's no danger of generating lethal viruses from human consumption of venison or duck, unless we start live trapping all wild animals and stacking them in cages floor to ceiling.

H1N1 originated in Mexico by the way, not America. But the big problem with western farming is the ridiculous pumping of antibiotics into livestock and generating bacterial resistance. But while that practice has to be curtailed as well it isn't immediately dangerous to human health in the same way as a wildlife market.

Obviously large scale wildlife markets aren't limited to China. They have to be shut down everywhere they exist.
 

The Boy

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Most people are well aware of the nuances of wet markets. Usually part of them deal in fresh food and have somewhat reasonable hygiene practices associated with animal slaughter and preparing fresh food. They're not a massive danger in terms of spawning pathogenic viruses. Nobody in the know is saying these have to be closed.

The other part of the equation is the wild animal market, and these have got to be shut down, period. And unlike with SARS1, this time China has to make their closures permanent and not turn a blind eye because the right people in government get paid off. That's why this outbreak is irrefutably China's fault. They had the warning shot and failed to respond to it. And then to make matters worse did their own 'Soviet Union during Chernobyl' act and first turned a blind eye, and then desperately tried to cover it up. Communist regimes and public health disasters - never a good mix.

Comparing wild animal markets with wild meats like game or venison is a false equivalency. The issue has nothing to do with the meat being 'wild'. It's the fact that in these markets dozens or hundreds of different species of wild animal are kept alive in close proximity. There's no danger of generating lethal viruses from human consumption of venison or duck, unless we start live trapping all wild animals and stacking them in cages floor to ceiling.

H1N1 originated in Mexico by the way, not America. But the big problem with western farming is the ridiculous pumping of antibiotics into livestock and generating bacterial resistance. But while that practice has to be curtailed as well it isn't immediately dangerous to human health in the same way as a wildlife market.

Obviously large scale wildlife markets aren't limited to China. They have to be shut down everywhere they exist.
Agree with lots of this, good post. And yes wild animal markets should be shut down and the proximity of various species that would never naturally be that close is an accident waiting to happen.

But the issue does have to do with wild meat. People who are involved in wildlife hunting, butchering and consumption risk transmission of infection from their close contact with live and dead animals. Zoonotic infections from hunting are well documented, such as an Ebola disease outbreak related to handling infected chimpanzee, gorilla and duiker carcasses and brucellosis in Australian hunters of wild boar. Foodborne infections from wild meat consumption have been reported globally, for example, Hepatitis E from raw or undercooked venison in Japan and trichinellosis from wild boar meat in France. Not all of these are infectious and risk a coronavirus event, but the possibility is always there.

As for Swine Flu, my understanding was the first cases were seen in Mexico in 2009 but genetically it was found to have it's closest relation in US swine. But could well be wrong. The point is though factory farming whether it's in the States, Mexico, Russia or UK is a flash point for zoonotic diseases to jump species and the point of my original post was we can not tell China to do one thing (however right it is) if we are not prepared to make changes ourselves.