What are we bad at and how do we fix it?

UpWithRivers

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Watching the match today I couldn't help being annoyed how every team manages to play out the back and we are still sht at it.This has gone on for years after numerous managers. So rate our fundamentals out of 10 (6 being average) and tell me how to we are going to fix them -

1) Playing out from the back - 4/10
2) Going long from goal kick - 4/10
3) Not making self inflicted errors - 2/10
4) Crossing - 5/10
5) Defensive Headers - 6/10
6) Offensive headers - 6/10
7) Controlling the midfield - 5/10
8) Beating a man one on one - 5/10
9) Scoring (Easier fix but not if we want to compete with the top teams at 85 plus goals) - 3/10
10) Corners and free kicks - 4/10

What else? And how do we fix it? Just better players? Better coaching?
 
1. Our forwards are shit. Getting a top class CF should be a priority.
2. We need a proper player in the Keano position.
3. A good goalkeeper.

As for the manager, obviously 1 season with their above than we judge him.
 
Plain and simple. We need better players. We need more technical players aswell as physical players. Amorims a very good coach but he needs specific players to play the roles he wants.
 
Our biggest weakness, particularly in the PL, is physicality. The level of physical prowess in the league has skyrocketed, and we've been left behind. Against most teams in the league, we range from overmatched to completely dominated.

Our performances have been better in Europe because the level of physicality isn't the same, so we can keep up.
 
I agree playing out from the back is certainly up there but also about of possession the spaces just between the inside of the wingback and outside of the wider central defenders is always exposed game after game. I'll give Amorim some leeway because when Newcastle battered palace it was the same instance where Newcastle just overloaded the sides and played a ball into the central area.

I keep seeing it game after game and it's the reason why United concede. The goalkeeper is certainly an issue but quality wise the defence is the most well covered region in the squad. The poor defence this season is not the outfield players, it's the spaces that represent immediate danger when being exploited. I actually think buying more attack minded wingbacks will further the issue, even though they add more in possession when going forward.

I think it's too short minded to just assume more attacking players fixes everything next season. The defence is a more pressing concern.
 
The Hilton said:
Our biggest weakness, particularly in the PL, is physicality. The level of physical prowess in the league has skyrocketed, and we've been left behind. Against most teams in the league, we range from overmatched to completely dominated.

Our performances have been better in Europe because the level of physicality isn't the same, so we can keep up.
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Agreed. When you’re second to everything and lose key duels all over the pitch, then you are in for a tough time. Problem is that this is the basics of the PL, so if you can’t get the basics right then every team in the league will at least give you a tough game. As we’ve found out.
 
If he wins the Europa league then his gamble pays off just like it did for Mourinho.

Utd playing 2 games a week with a very limited squad is a big factor in why we’ve dropped off so much in the league.

These “excuses” aren’t going to wash next season and if his Europa league gamble fails then the pressure is even greater.

He will have to turn it around quickly over the summer otherwise he’s probably toast.
 
Apparantly we just need to find the instruments that make good music together with our Portuguese unitar.
 
pocco said:
Agreed. When you’re second to everything and lose key duels all over the pitch, then you are in for a tough time. Problem is that this is the basics of the PL, so if you can’t get the basics right then every team in the league will at least give you a tough game. As we’ve found out.
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Teams a very easy tactic against us, pressing high to stop us from playing out, they've got pace and power that we don't so it's easy to recover whenever one of our players does break the press, and we can't go long because our forwards don't have the pace, strength, or ball control to give us an out that way.
 
stretford ender58 said:
If he wins the Europa league then his gamble pays off just like it did for Mourinho.

Utd playing 2 games a week with a very limited squad is a big factor in why we’ve dropped off so much in the league.

These “excuses” aren’t going to wash next season and if his Europa league gamble fails then the pressure is even greater.
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What’s his gamble out of interest?
 
We're going into games with a paper bulletproof vest and a butter knife.

Get a,

- Top goalkeeper
- Top striker

That's half of our problems solved. Then we can get into upgrading the engine room.
 
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UpWithRivers said:
Watching the match today I couldn't help being annoyed how every team manages to play out the back and we are still sht at it.This has gone on for years after numerous managers. So rate our fundamentals out of 10 (6 being average) and tell me how to we are going to fix them -

1) Playing out from the back - 4/10
2) Going long from goal kick - 4/10
3) Not making self inflicted errors - 2/10
4) Crossing - 5/10
5) Defensive Headers - 6/10
6) Offensive headers - 6/10
7) Controlling the midfield - 5/10
8) Beating a man one on one - 5/10
9) Scoring (Easier fix but not if we want to compete with the top teams at 85 plus goals) - 3/10
10) Corners and free kicks - 4/10

What else? And how do we fix it? Just better players? Better coaching?
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This one. I mean firstly, I'd give us a 1/10, because if we're just going by the league we really are hopeless at it. If you take out the bottom 3 teams we've scored 26 goals against everyone else. Less than 1 per game.

Also. 85+ goals? Who is scoring that many? Liverpool are on 80. No one else is at 70 yet and there's only one or two who might get there.

I would narrow it down to:
1) Physicality/fitness - 1/10 - we get bullied by every PL opponent. Or, at best, just about hold our own.
2) Converting attacking situations to goals - 1/10 - Our players don't know what to do when the opposition sit off, and make awful decisions constantly when they get in behind. Our first choice striker's main weaknesses are scoring goals and being a striker.
3) Goalkeeping - 3/10 - Again, if you had to list our goalkeepers weaknesses, it would be things like "saves" and "not conceding direct from a corner", "general goalkeeping duties", etc.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Watching the match today I couldn't help being annoyed how every team manages to play out the back and we are still sht at it.This has gone on for years after numerous managers. So rate our fundamentals out of 10 (6 being average) and tell me how to we are going to fix them -

1) Playing out from the back - 4/10
2) Going long from goal kick - 4/10
3) Not making self inflicted errors - 2/10
4) Crossing - 5/10
5) Defensive Headers - 6/10
6) Offensive headers - 6/10
7) Controlling the midfield - 5/10
8) Beating a man one on one - 5/10
9) Scoring (Easier fix but not if we want to compete with the top teams at 85 plus goals) - 3/10
10) Corners and free kicks - 4/10

What else? And how do we fix it? Just better players? Better coaching?
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Controlling the midfield 5? What season are you currently watching because it's not been one recently.
 
Proper striker. Proper #10 partner to Bruno. Proper central midfielder that can run and is good in possession. I really do believe this improves us significantly, even if we would still have some weaknesses.

We are currently in a situation where our players make each other worse. Getting in more quality and players that complement each other would be a huge help.
 
We have a terrible frontline and we need more physical, athletic players.

Although this appears to be getting addressed with the mooted signing of Cunha who is a physical specimen and can score goals, as well as some of our signings such as Dorgu, Heaven and Obi. They’re all built like units despite being quite young.
 
noodlehair said:
This one. I mean firstly, I'd give us a 1/10, because if we're just going by the league we really are hopeless at it. If you take out the bottom 3 teams we've scored 26 goals against everyone else. Less than 1 per game.

Also. 85+ goals? Who is scoring that many? Liverpool are on 80. No one else is at 70 yet and there's only one or two who might get there.

I would narrow it down to:
1) Physicality/fitness - 1/10 - we get bullied by every PL opponent. Or, at best, just about hold our own.
2) Converting attacking situations to goals - 1/10 - Our players don't know what to do when the opposition sit off, and make awful decisions constantly when they get in behind. Our first choice striker's main weaknesses are scoring goals and being a striker.
3) Goalkeeping - 3/10 - Again, if you had to list our goalkeepers weaknesses, it would be things like "saves" and "not conceding direct from a corner", "general goalkeeping duties", etc.
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This is one of the lowest scoring seasons. Man City regularly get 90+ and second place late 80's. Liverpool came second with 100+ goals. If we really want to win the league likelyhood is that we will need 85+ goals. Even that will probably only get us second if City or Liverpool etc go on a mad one
 
We need more pace and physicality across the board. Lose way too many duels in the PL. That can be done in different ways and different player profiles.

Must haves are an experienced striker and a new goalkeeper.
 
UpWithRivers said:
This is one of the lowest scoring seasons. Man City regularly get 90+ and second place late 80's. Liverpool came second with 100+ goals. If we really want to win the league likelyhood is that we will need 85+ goals. Even that will probably only get us second if City or Liverpool etc go on a mad one
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To score that amount of goals you need you main striker to be getting 30 goals at least. Problem is there are not many of them about that you can guarantee will get them in the PL. We also need someone to give the same sort of returns we get from Bruno.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
To score that amount of goals you need you main striker to be getting 30 goals at least. Problem is there are not many of them about that you can guarantee will get them in the PL. We also need someone to give the same sort of returns we get from Bruno.
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Which is why we need a Gykores. Delap getting us 15-20 might take us to Villa level like Watkins but then how do we go further?
 
UpWithRivers said:
Which is why we need a Gykores. Delap getting us 15-20 might take us to Villa level like Watkins but then how do we go further?
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With Gykores for all his goal record at Sporting it is if he is a PL player. He was not great in The Championship, so you hope if he comes here he has learnt a lot. If he goes to Arsenal I hope he stinks the place out.
 
Our main issues are centred around:
  1. Physical flooring - We are easily beaten duels and teams can bully us
  2. Box defending - We cannot defend crosses to save our lives
  3. Finishing - We cannot score the good chances we generate and we hardly ever go 1-0 up
  4. Personnel - We need to move beyond certain personnel in key areas who keep making errors, our keepers have killed us this season
 
Against technical teams, we are ok in defense but struggle to score.

Against physical teams, we are weak off the ball and defensively vulnerable but can sometimes score.
 
We're fixing it by buying the best young players we can find. That's not a plan for a quick fix but if it works it will be a most thrilling, pleasurable and very United one. That's where my hope lies.
 
Too much to mention but the thing that annoys me the most is we’re always signing injury prone or physically deficient players

Most of the teams that play us seem to over power us and out run us.. and like, surely this is obvious to the management over the years?

The current manager seems to have identified it as a weakness at least
 
Look-a-Hill said:
We sign a Gykores when we're Villa level. It's very unlikely we jump from 17th to title challenges in one window with the league as stacked as it is.
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So we buy mid players trying to get to Villa level then when we are there after x years we rebuild and try again for a title chase? That makes no sense.
 
711 said:
We're fixing it by buying the best young players we can find. That's not a plan for a quick fix but if it works it will be a most thrilling, pleasurable and very United one. That's where my hope lies.
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Never worked in the history of football and the only top young player we have bought is Yoro. Not even linked with any other really top player except brief links to Mastantunono.
 
United need playmakers. Central midfield is the engine of the team and it gets neglected continuously. The club needs players that can control games, find passes and have abundance of imagination. When you control games well, it leads to less pressure on the defence.

The club's investment in this area will tell me everything about their desire to succeed. For me, there has to be a minimum 3 central midfielders coming into the team. One of which could be up and coming star, another from the academy like Kone and a top class one. The dynamic of the side must change. The technical floor needs to be raised.

The physical side is important and that needs to be addressed but it is a lot easier to fix than addressing technical flaws.
 
UpWithRivers said:
So we buy mid players trying to get to Villa level then when we are there after x years we rebuild and try again for a title chase? That makes no sense.
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It's called progression. It's about continuous improvement year on year. We don't have the money to buy best in class in every position, and there's lots of improvements needed.
 
I think it's even less complicated than that. We're shit at passing, crossing, scoring, defending, and anything involving either technical skill or athleticism.

This doesn't mean that every player is poor at all of these (although I don't think we have a decent crosser besides Maguire) but overall this is what we're bad at.

Could even simplify further and say 'most aspects of football'.
 
Building a squad to play 352 under Amorim’s systeM is going to be a lot more expensive than building for a manager with a more traditional formation.
Whilst I think Amorim is one of the most likeable managers we’ve had, I’m steadfast in my feelings that he isn’t good enough for the PL, as a team I’ve not seen anything to suggest he has it to turn this around.
I’d much rather the club replaced him this summer and focused on a few key positions, rather than more specialist positions for RA’s system.

We have good enough players for a stable back 4 next season, without having to buy an additional CB. We have FBs but a new LB to back up Shaw.
Central midfield is good enough without new buys - Mainoo played well last season in there and Casemiro/Ugarte clearly ok there. Colley a good stand in.
Wide players - Garnacho much better out wide. Rashford if he comes back (we get CL football, he’s going nowhere), Antony (same deal with CL football), Amad.
10s - Bruno and Mount
CF - the obvious need to buy along with a GK

Sticking with RA means another WB - who might be lost in a back 4 should we replace RA. Another 10 and same rules apply regarding replacing Amorim. Along with obvious CB, CM, CF and GK positions, sticking with Amorim would be an expensive and slow rebuild as his system needs more specialist players that our current squad are unable to fit into - Mainoo, Garnacho are obvious candidates here.
 
UpWithRivers said:
This is one of the lowest scoring seasons. Man City regularly get 90+ and second place late 80's. Liverpool came second with 100+ goals. If we really want to win the league likelyhood is that we will need 85+ goals. Even that will probably only get us second if City or Liverpool etc go on a mad one
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I wouldn't be worrying about winning the league anytime soon. Our aim in the short term is probably to get back into the CL places, which is usually around 60-70 goals and even 16th to top 4 is a big (unrealistic) leap in one year. It can happen but there's not really a strategy to guarantee it or even make it likely.

There's been plenty of seasons including in the recent past where no one has managed more than low to mid 80s in goals. City have warped it with occasional freak goal tallies, but have both cheated and made the league rubbish in the process, so I don't think that will continue to be the barometer.

Although it's all besides the point as it doesn't change the fact we need to get better at scoring goals in the league.

What doesn't make sense is our goalscoring record in the league vs other competitions. We have 51 goals in 20 games outside of the PL. That scoring rate in the PL would put us on nearly 100 goals after 38 games. Obviously you have to factor in opposition quality, extra time goals etc. but we've only played 1 non pl team in the domestic cups and all of our higher goal tallies in Europe have been against the supposed stronger opponents, which suggests either there's something specific about the league we struggle with (physicality?), or we've been choosing which games to give a sh*t in...or most likely a bit of both.
 
Two good (not even necessarily great or world class) players in a keeper and striker immediately takes us into the top 7 next season. Our league form is never going to be great when players in those positions are so all over the place. They would also improve the defence (certainly in the case of helping Yoro) and midfield (actually having someone to pass to in the final third).

If you can then improve the depth of the squad and bring cover in for the defence and midfield, we can easily challenge for the top 4.

The difference between proper shit and good (again not necessarily great) in this league is relatively small. You could easily see United and Spurs finishing in the top 6/7 next season and easily see any teams out of Forest/Bournemouth/Fulham/Brighton finishing in the bottom 6/7. It only takes a couple of players and maybe a manager to leave (Leicester circa 2017 and 2021) for things to start unravelling for those types of clubs.
 
I think a big factor in us "being s**t" is fatigue of key players and inability/unwillingness to rotate them. You may rightfully say we lack fitness, physique and strength in depth but chasing so many games into ~10 min added time no matter the competition with more or less the same players I think is taking a toll on performance consistency.

So, I'd say we're s**t at

* Prioritizing use and conserving our best players
* Putting at least some games to bed before 70 mins
* Handling the pressure of plating for Man United - Ignoring ex-players hammering us on TV and morning headlines in the papers after a game?
 
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Stenis87 said:
I think a big factor is fatigue of key players and inability/unwillingness to rotate them. You may rightfully say we lack fitness, physique and strength in depth but chasing so many games into ~10 min added time no matter the competition with more or less the same players I think is taking a till on performance consistency.

So, I'd say we're s**t at prioritizing our resources, putting at least some games to bed before 70 mins and maybe afraid of ex-players hammering us on TV and morning headlines in the papers.
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I think letting Rashford and Antony plus Sancho leave meant that Amorim had no choice. Playing Thursday and Sunday with a small squad is going to be punishing. Dalot has been an ever present for two seasons now and an injury and loss of form was coming. I am surprised how well Bruno has done.
 
We’re sht at winning and we need to win by winning games. You win games by scoring more than the opposition.

Credit: Michael Owen
 
we pretty much have feck all quality attacking wingbacks (except amad) and in this formation; when you add that to a misfiring/dysfunctional and poor attack…you’re always going to struggle to score goals. We’ve lost quite a few games 1-0 iirc. Coupled with an infinite amount of injuries and changes at the back, it’s been bleak. That’s without even talking about our attackers.
 
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