Any rumours on who the next manager will be?
What happened to Dutch football?
- Thread starter Adisa
- Start date
Sad to see what's happened to the Dutch in terms of national football. Can't see too many players to pick up the mantle either.
Rightfully so... he needed to go.
People didnt want him as our NT manager since he only coached Ajax for a little longer than a year and he failed there too. There was some weird shady deal with the KNVB (Dutch FA), Blind and Hiddink when Hiddink got the job. Blind was supposed to be the assistant and was going to take over from Hiddink while basically having no experience besides the short-lived Ajax job. This was while Koeman made it public he wanted the job when he left Feyenoord.
I wanted to give him a chance (unlike many other) but he basically did everything wrong. He ignores good proven players like Pieters (EPL proven), RVP and other decent players in decent leagues but hands debuts to (mostly Ajax) players after a few matches.
His latest call up was the biggest joke so far and it backfired.. he could have played Hoedt as central defender who plays in the Serie A on a weekly base but instead he choose de Ligt. Despite being talented De Ligt played 7 games for Ajax, made a huge mistake last week and is only 17 years old. That same de Ligt had a shocker of a debut and was substituted during half time for a Hoedt.
It is never nice to see someone get fired but i think this is for the best.. eventhough qualifying is going to be hard now.
People didnt want him as our NT manager since he only coached Ajax for a little longer than a year and he failed there too. There was some weird shady deal with the KNVB (Dutch FA), Blind and Hiddink when Hiddink got the job. Blind was supposed to be the assistant and was going to take over from Hiddink while basically having no experience besides the short-lived Ajax job. This was while Koeman made it public he wanted the job when he left Feyenoord.
I wanted to give him a chance (unlike many other) but he basically did everything wrong. He ignores good proven players like Pieters (EPL proven), RVP and other decent players in decent leagues but hands debuts to (mostly Ajax) players after a few matches.
His latest call up was the biggest joke so far and it backfired.. he could have played Hoedt as central defender who plays in the Serie A on a weekly base but instead he choose de Ligt. Despite being talented De Ligt played 7 games for Ajax, made a huge mistake last week and is only 17 years old. That same de Ligt had a shocker of a debut and was substituted during half time for a Hoedt.
It is never nice to see someone get fired but i think this is for the best.. eventhough qualifying is going to be hard now.
AJAX ruled Europe in the 70s and the early 90s. Feyenoord or Rotterdam were also sucessful at the European level.
Several of Ajax' international trophies
- European Cup / Champions League: 4
- European Cup Winners' Cup: 1
- UEFA Cup: 1
- UEFA Super Cup: 2
- Intercontinental Cup: 2
The consequence for the NT
WC 1974 Final
WC 1978 Final
EURO 1988 Winner
EURO 1992 Final
WC 1994 QF
Euro 1996 QF
WC 1998: SF
Euro 2000: SF
I know they have reached the final of the WC 2010 but I do believe there is a gap in terms of quality between the post-Bosman and pre-Bosman players.
My understanding is the Bosman ruling has killed the Dutch league and the decline was gradual.
The best Dutch players don't play together as the Dutch clubs are selling clubs.
Frank de Boer is pretty much the only one who makes sense, really. With the idiots who are in charge at the moment though, you'll never know.
Giggs till the end of the season.
It has been the other way around for the portuguese national team and we're very similar to the dutch league since our league is of similar quality and all clubs sell their best players. The Bosman ruling may have played a part in it but I think it's mostly a generation problem for them.
You better thank God Wilmots has already fecked off to Africa. Could Rijkaard consider coming back btw? or is he actually completely done with coaching?
I don't think it's got anything to do with generations by the way, somtimes you have a great generation, sometimes a lesser one. Now we have a lesser one, for sure. But there's still more than enough quality to beat any team in our group other than France. Missing one tournament (Euro 2016) can happen every once in a while, especially after peaking the tournament before, even with a great generation like we saw in 2002 when we missed Japan&South Korea.
This shite is just down to a bunch of idiots being in charge at the Dutch FA, and appointing a 55 year old man who literally had one season in his life as a first team manager - in which he managed to finish 4th with Ajax. Like I said, Moyes was a masterstroke compared to.
This shite is just down to a bunch of idiots being in charge at the Dutch FA, and appointing a 55 year old man who literally had one season in his life as a first team manager - in which he managed to finish 4th with Ajax. Like I said, Moyes was a masterstroke compared to.
Rijkaard recently stated he had no ambition to ever be a coach again. He said he enjoyed his time and work as a manager, but basically doesn't feel he's a genuinely authentic manager. Which is a shame, because he's such a cool, intelligent and classy guy.
Hope they go for Koeman.
Rijkaard wouldn't be a bad option. The thing with Dutch football is that they always used to have three or four world class players. Players who could beat a man and excite you. But they relying on a 34 year old Robben to be that guy on his own. Depay isn't good enough. A lot of the other players aren't good enough.
Credit to Van Gaal for getting this shower of shite to the semi finals.
Rijkaard wouldn't be a bad option. The thing with Dutch football is that they always used to have three or four world class players. Players who could beat a man and excite you. But they relying on a 34 year old Robben to be that guy on his own. Depay isn't good enough. A lot of the other players aren't good enough.
Credit to Van Gaal for getting this shower of shite to the semi finals.
Come on Louis, it's time to leave your villa and get horny again!
The Champions league is killing all the leagues bar the top few, Scotland, Holland, Portugal and even the Italian league have suffered over the last decade.
The competition has fed the mega clubs far too much money and this has meant the top players only have an interest in playing in either Spain, Germany and England. Exceptions are made for clubs with the finances of PSG but the rest are relying on youth development or the luck of putting a great team together.
Once great clubs like Benfica, Ajax, Milan, Inter and Porto have slowly declined, they are now bit part players.
The competition has fed the mega clubs far too much money and this has meant the top players only have an interest in playing in either Spain, Germany and England. Exceptions are made for clubs with the finances of PSG but the rest are relying on youth development or the luck of putting a great team together.
Once great clubs like Benfica, Ajax, Milan, Inter and Porto have slowly declined, they are now bit part players.
But the decline wasn't gradual. It's sudden. There's a massive gap between the generation of Robben, Sneijder and Van Persie and the current one. These players all started their first team career when Bosman had already been in effect for years.
You've also completely ignored my reference to Belgium and Portugal.
Dutch football is almost perfection. Constantly striving towards being the edge of development in tactics and training. They school their players to be deadly robots with super human skills. They often have a really good balance of ego and team work - sadly the ego often take overhand at the last moments (quarter or semi) and they share that bad habit with teams like Portugal, Croatia and England.
Their orange color is among the most important and classic ones in a cup. Names are beautiful. goals are always beautiful.
I wish they didn't have to qualify for any tournament.
Their orange color is among the most important and classic ones in a cup. Names are beautiful. goals are always beautiful.
I wish they didn't have to qualify for any tournament.
Sorry.
Portugal is an interesting case: their clubs have made smart acquisitions from South-America to maintain a decent level and keep their top clubs competitive at the European stage. More competent Managers I'd say. Porto won the UEFA Cup in 2003 and the Champions League in 2004.
Belgium has never done something top at the International level
Poor performances of the Dutch clubs at the European level are the main driver IMO.
Massive gap between the generations 70s-80s-90s-00s of Cruyjff+Neeskens+Krol+Rep+Rensenbrink, Van Basten+Rijkaard+Koeman, Davids+Seedorf+Kluivert who have known the Pre-Bosman era... and the 2010s one: Sneijder, Kuyt, De jong, Van der wiel...
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Serie A has the second or third highest domestic TV rights in the world. Our decline has nothing to do with CL and everything to do with gross mismanagement at every level. Juventus are getting back among the european giants. They already did in terms of results and are getting there financially.
Netherlanfs problem is, plain and simple, lack of talent. The generations following the Robben-Sneijder-RVP have been sub-par. It happens. Netherlands missed three straight tournaments between 1982 and 1986 as they phased out the great 70s generation and waited for the great late 80s generation to take over. We'll see what happens once the new generation takes over in 2-4 years
That said, this team really should not lose against the likes of bulgaria. I think they're not helped by being netherlands: they kinda have to play in a certain way, and most teams will be happy to just sit back and play for a draw against them.
It started going downhill with the rise of sugar daddy owners (Abramovich and beyond), where the big clubs are locked in an arms race to acquire the best talent as soon as possible so they aren't beaten to the punch by their rivals. Players no longer have much time in leagues like Holland before moving to one of the bigger leagues.
The Dutch have been punching above their weight forever, it seems the modern game has finally overtaken them. RVP, RVN and Robben the last truly world class players they have had in recent times.
Sneijder as well
How do you work that out?
What does this have to do with Holland?
It's not like England have a successful national team. It's nothing to do with champions league. If it was then Brazil wouldn't have won the World Cup 5 times.
Dutch are going through a phase just like all countries have. It happened to Germany and Spain before.
Surely relying on youth development means it should help them and not hinder them because their top teams are playing all Dutch players unlike here in England where all the top teams best players are foreign.
As been pointed out, the generation between those of Cruyjff and Van Basten wasn't so great either. No Bosman to put the blame on.Massive gap between the generations 70s-80s-90s-00s of Cruyjff+Neeskens+Krol+Rep+Rensenbrink, Van Basten+Rijkaard+Koeman, Davids+Seedorf+Kluivert who have known the Pre-Bosman era... and the 2010s one: Sneijder, Kuyt, De jong, Van der wiel...
Belgium's national side is far stronger than that of 10 or 20 years ago. Yet they've had Bosman just as much as The Netherlands. And I agree Portugal are "interesting": they, like Belgium, disprove your theory.
I agree.
At a push yeah.
It's definitely a problem and the Dutch league is at an all time low in terms of quality at the moment, so it's hard not to make a connection to the NT performing at an abysmal level.
At the same time it's a very complex issue. General concensus between all the big name old players and other people who are considered youth education experts is that exceptional world class talents like Robben, Van Persie, Sneijder, or Bergkamp, Van Basten, Gullit, Kluivert, aren't really produced/trained. They basically just get born (of course you could still argue about the influence of a good youth set up and national league on their development).
Currently there's not much real world class talent, though sometimes it's hard to tell, some youngsters are still very interesting prospects. And players can have a Stam or Van Nistelrooy-like development too.
But then if you look at the level below "world class", there's actually still more than enough talent available and coming through. Plenty of players who will be/are pretty much on a Nigel de Jong, Kuyt, possibly even Van Bommel level. Blind, Wijnaldum, Strootman, Klaassen, De Vrij, Van Dijk, Memphis to name a few. So is there really a problem with the development of talent?
At the end of the day, looking at the quality of the opponents we've faced in the qualifiers post Brazil 2014, we've still massively underachieved.
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I think he deserved the Ballon d'Or in 2010, at a push sounds harsh to me.
Disagree. The Dutch team that played against bulgaria yesterday:
Zoet(PSV) Karsdorp(Feyenoord), martins indi(stoke) de ligt(ajax) blind(united) strootman(roma) wijnaldum(liverpool) klaasen(ajax) promes(spartak moscow?) Robben(bayern) dost(sporting lisbon)
2010 WC finalist
Stekelenburg(ajax) van der wiel(ajax) heitinga(everton) mathijsen(hamburg) van bronckhorst(feyenoord) de jong(city) van bommel(bayern) sneijder(inter) robben(bayern) kuyt(liverpool) van persie(arsenal)
Yeah fair enough.
Thought the Robben/RvP/VdV/Sneijder class of the early 2000s was one of their best ever, at least in this generation WC final and semi.
The Bosman ruling is one of the reasons that explain the gradual decline of the Dutch Football. And if you want to ignore this fact, it's your choice.
Contrary to the Netherlands, Belgium has never been a leading country at the high level before Bosman: so I'm not surprised the country is still a second-class country.
Portugal is a country capable to do great performances at the European stage: they won the Champions league in 2004 and the UEFA Cup many times.
The Dutch clubs did nothing since 1996 - like it or not - strangely since the Bosman ruling: surely a coincidence.
Netherlands made it to two WC semis, one WC final, and one Euro SF since the bosman ruling. Ajax still produced an incredibly competitive generarion that nearly eliminated milan in CL in 2003. Feyenoord won the Uefa Cup in 2002
To some extent yes, but on the other hand since the rise of sugar daddy owners you had countries like Croatia, Poland or Belgium which all have significantly weaker national leagues (without Gulf/Russian/Asian money) and were incomparably less successful than the Netherlands in the past, yet now are in much better position - Poland and Croatia also have notably worse (although they improved a lot over last few years) training facilities, but the talent pool looks IMO better than the Dutch one now.
Maybe it's the fact that Dutch training is not that special anymore and some formerly second-tier countries caught up a bit? Or maybe it's also a mental thing to some extent. There were so many Dutch talents hailed as future world beaters that underperformed lately (first one that comes to my mind is Huntelaar) and when you look at their team now it is so bang average it's hard to believe. Tough times for Oranje, especially considering their past.
Kluivert, Seedorf, Overmars, Ronald De Boer, Frank De Boer, Davids... won the Champions League together in 1995 and reached the final of the ECL in 96. The core of the Dutch team successful in the late 1990s-2000. They played together at the club level and reached maturity in the Netherlands: that is why, I agree with Raoul.
I won't compare Feyenoord 2002 (that won a trophy nobody cares) with Ajax 1995-96 or Ajax 71-72-73 that ruled Europe.
I also think Netherlands 98-00 is better than Netherlands 2010.
Portugal won his 1st international trophy in 2014. Belgium has never won the Euro/WC.
That is why, I still believe the Bosman ruling is a turning point regarding the Dutch Football, a factor that played a key role in the sharp decline of the Dutch Football from an historical perspective.
I deeply believe the Dutch football can reborn from its ashes if some measures are taken at all levels.
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Sex Masochist!
Schteve Mclaren, speaks the language, knows the eredivisie. Ticks all the boxes.
They just lost to Bulgaria. And it was not a smash grab they were completely outplayed. You can not blame the Bosman ruling for that. And no matter how poor this generation something like this should not happen to them. Robben and Sneijder are their only really creative players and they are both in their 30s. They do not have any midfielders who can pass under pressure and only Strootman is strong defensively. They build from the back but, their defenders rarely pass the ball to midfielders. There is very little pressing from them and they move the ball at a very slow tempo. And it is a problem top down since most Dutch clubs shows the same issues.
Should that be counted against them though? He's still Dutch.
Players like Wijnaldum are in their starting line-up. Enough said really.
It was which was reflected in the fact that many barely expected them to make it out of the group stage, let alone overachieve hugely by finishing 3rd.
I take your general point though, without these players dragging them through it's clearer still what a poor side they are.
I quite like Wijnaldum actually, he's one of the younger crop that has his head on right in my opinion. Still the decline from past sides is very noticable for the Dutch squad. Players move earlier and either get overhyped or move to a mid-table side and be ignored by our NT Coach since it doesn't count if you start for Stoke and do very well. Pieters is a glaring example of a player that should be getting called up each time, but never is.
Not really. It produced 3 WC players and that's it. It was an inferior version of their 80s generation. Probably overall inferior to the 90s one as well
Seedorf and Kluivert left that team as 19 year olds. Davids was 23. Bergkamp had left 2 years before, also 23. Stam wasn't even part of that team. The Bosman ruling had nothing to do with Ajax's ability to keep those players. Simply put, there was less financial disparity, and fewer truly ultra-rich clubs. The De Boer twins remained at Ajax until the age of 29, until Van Gaal called them at Barcelona. That had nothing to do with the Bosman ruling and all to do with them just not being particularly rated by the likes of Milan, Inter, Juventus, Real Madrid, Roma, Lazio, Sampdoria, Fiorentina, Parma, Manchester United, Barcelona, Liverpool, Newcastle...
You said Dutch football did nothing since the bosman rule. Well, one dutch team won the UEFA Cup. And yeah, by then it had lost its shine, still, they beat inter(lost the title in hilarious fashion on the last day) in the semifinal and borussia dortmund(german champions) in the final. Oh and dortmund beat milan in the semifinal as well. Both inter and milan would make it to the CL SF a year later, with milan winning it. And they would barely scrape past Ajax in the QF, an Ajax team with Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Van der Meyde, De Jong, Chivu, Ibra, Maxwell. All players that came up through their academy or were signed very young(chivu 19, Ibra 20)
Probably because overall it was. Because they had more and better players. Still, looking at the 1998 team and comparing it to the 2010 team...not that big a difference. 1998 had better CBs, worse FBs, better CMs. The attacking players were more or less on the same level. If anything the 2010 ones were slightly better when you consider Sneijder's form(Sneijder-Robben-RVP-Kuyt vs Overmars-De Boer-Bergkamp-Kluivert)
I don't think so, but that's beside the point. We're talking about the NT, not the Eredivisie here
I deeply believe it's just a bad generation, and they'll be back in 4 years, as soon as the new generation takes over
That is because they are "forced" to play like that. Netherlands are better than Bulgaria, but they were asked to play a type of football that exposed all their weaknesses. Bulgaria played to its strengths, the dutch played to their weaknesses. That was Van Gaal's genius at the WC. He put results above everything, had the team play to its strengths(namely, a very physical, athletic midfield that could outrun the opposition, 3 defenders dominant in the air, Robben's pace and dribbling on the counter and Van Persie's sheer goalscoring talent. He set them up to defend and play on the counter - the anthithesis of dutch football - and got them to the SF. It's no coincidence that their best games came against Spain, Chile and Brazil, three teams that played on the front foot and attacked them, whereas whenever they had to play on the front foot, they struggled)
AFAIK Van Gaal was criticized at home for the way that team played, despite finishing 3rd
True(and same is true with Sneijder in 2010. Another competition were the dutch were great on the counter and really bad against teams that forced them to play on the front foot). Even so, Van Gaal(like Van Marwijk) gave them the best chance to succeed. Hiddink and Blind over the last 4 years have outright damaged their chances. Same thing happened to Van Marwijk in 2012 as well