What is the formula to get back to the top?

Valencia Shin Crosses

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Realistically, what do people think the steps are that we need to take to get back into a consistent, contending team? We can all agree that on our day we can go against and beat most sides in the world, but we have a serious issue with consistency both within our players and the overall system (or lack thereof) that they are put into. Short of "Glazer Out", spunking a bunch of money unrealistically, getting a DoF, or any other solutions that aren't going to happen, I want to know what people think.

My opinion:
1. Continue to spend big money on the young prospective stars of tomorrow. Our transfer strategy has been shown to be a sham with the Glazers refusing to spend big to reinforce the squad in consecutive years. However, our youth recruitment has been very good lately and is probably our best shot of forming a deep, talented squad while not relying on Ed Woodward to do so.

2. Get a manager that understands modern styles of play and implements his ideas on to players. Poch, Hassenhuttl, Nagelsmann, or whoever it is, we need someone who from day 1 implements instructions to his players that are simple and clear, and plays on the front foot through this. This manager also has to be someone with a track record of being a good man manager and developer of young players, as our squad will be quite young comparatively. Ole does well with the second, but it's clear at this point that he has holes in his knowledge when it comes to creating a clear pressing system and passages of play when we are dominating the ball. Midfielders and attackers are sat stagnant, while we aimlessly pass the ball waiting for an individual to create something out of nothing. Likewise, building from the back under pressure is a nightmare for us, and much of it has to do with players not moving to the proper areas in order to break the press. Obviously once we break through, we become lethal as teams push men forwards and allow our counter attacking to flourish. Credit to Ole for refining this, but he's clearly limited when it comes to the other facets of the game and it's part of our overall inconsistency.

3. Sell Pogba and Maguire, as well as continuing to flog off the deadwood eventually. Those two players are almost automatic starters in our first XI, but the limitations they bring to the team cause us to have to build around them to compensate, and it harms us in other areas. Maguire is dreadfully slow and struggles playing a high line, meaning we have to play multiple defensive minded midfielders in front to shield him as well one of the best defending full backs in the world next to him. Pogba provides exquisite passing and skill, but is completely devoid of any defensive instinct and forces us to, again, shield him in the side. I've never been a Pogba hater, but his limitations at this point are too much in the modern game with how important having energetic midfielders and a pressing system are.

If we manage these three things, I think the club's future is bright. It's obvious at this point that the squad has talented footballers, as well as our academy. But all we are right now is a team that blows hot and cold depending on the day, and the issues discussed above would go a long way towards raising both our floor and ceiling.
 

Murray3007

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its just going round in cycles again, looking at the players we need to start again, need a DOF with a vision for the club, managers and players purchased or sold for that vision, we have had 4 managers since SAF all who play different ways, every time they want new players or they are trying to put square blocks in round holes, its a mess of the highest order, remember when ole came in he said he wanted them to be the fittest team in the league, actually think we are the least fittest in the league, never seen a team who just stroll about consistently, look at Bruno from when he came in till now, he looks lost and broken, always looked like he was the trigger for a press then he would turn round and no one else had moved, the mentality in this bunch of players is just so bad, actually think there lucky there is no fans in the stadium the now, actually sick of hearing all them come out after games with there crap, we will work harder, we will do better and we all no its just more lies, they ain't fit to wear the shirt, would rather just give more youth players a shot, least they would try.
 

RedCoffee

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Ability.
Mental Strength.
Consistency.

That's it!
 

Sandikan

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Simply the case of having the right manager, one who will improve the players he has.

Not so simple, is establishing who that manager is.
 

Alfie092

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Until we have new owners, I sadly think we will continue to go in cycles.

However, we could hit the jackpot by appointing a DoF and a manager who knows what they are doing will help us improve significantly compared to where we are now. We need to leave the footballing decisions to them and Ed Woodward needs to stay away. We need to have a clear vision in the direction we want to go, the style of football we want to implement (hopefully a more attacking approach compared to now) and identify the type of players who fits into our vision. We don't need to spend ridiculous sums of money on players every time, if we be more astute with our signings and scout properly, we may be able to pick up a few gems along the way.

Saying that, I'm probably asking for too much from this club...
 

HoustonRed

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A matter of getting the right manager who draws instant respect from the entire squad and more importantly the bosses above him. That comes with having a good modern plan, clear principles with a proven track record (doesnt mean winning trophies).
The fight and the response will follow. And looking at the effect, the ex players and media will start fawning over and consequently breeds unrivalled confidence resulting in fear in opposition and naturally winning at will. Simple really. Just a matter of a manager with cojones and plan to back it up.
 

Bebestation

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I'm going to say something different -

We need good players in their prime.

I look at Liverpool and I see a very few young players at all (TAA, Gomez)- it all tends to be players in their prime (Mane, Salah,Widjnaldum,Henderson, Van Dijk, Allison, Thiago, Robertson etc).

City have a much larger squad with a significant amount in their prime or experienced aswell (KDB, Sterling, Aguero, Mahrez, Fernandinho, Laporte,Walker etc).

Even during the SAF era, we might have had young players like Ronaldo and Rooney developing- but where was it done? Around players of a prime or experience like RVN, Scholes, Giggs and others. It was the same way many of the class of 92 developed; around a prime that was later deemed not needed when the players of potential took over.

I feel when Keane talks about passion or energy as something that's missing - it could well be right; but I also feel like players in their prime gives us a very similar thing.

We saw it with Bruno - a player closer to his prime than he was 20 and it shook the whole club up when he moved and performed straight away.
 

zacx

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Change owner and CEO..... than we have a chance.... until then, even Pep and Messi + Ronaldo + Sancho wont be able to help us back to the top...
 

Strelok

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Looking at the dippers I'd say competent leadership and a very good coach. However it usually starts with leadership first as they're the ones who set the structures behind, direction and appoint/supervise the coach.

That's the 'secret' formula I think.
 

TheDoc

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This is a motivational issue. The players simply aren't showing up, they're downing tools time and time again just goofing about with no hunger to win, focus shifted elsewhere making mistakes you usually only see on a junior league level and not displaying a shred of urgency until the last fifteen minutes or so. This is a fixable problem, what we need is a reality check, for our players to get their heads out their arses and back in the game.

This engine isn't broken, it's just stalled, it has something stuck in it. All it needs to get started again is a solid kick where it matters.
 

Bobcat

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I'm going to say something different -

We need good players in their prime.


I look at Liverpool and I see a very few young players at all (TAA, Gomez)- it all tends to be players in their prime (Mane, Salah,Widjnaldum,Henderson, Van Dijk, Allison, Thiago, Robertson etc).

City have a much larger squad with a significant amount in their prime or experienced aswell (KDB, Sterling, Aguero, Mahrez, Fernandinho, Laporte,Walker etc).

Even during the SAF era, we might have had young players like Ronaldo and Rooney developing- but where was it done? Around players of a prime or experience like RVN, Scholes, Giggs and others. It was the same way many of the class of 92 developed; around a prime that was later deemed not needed when the players of potential took over.

I feel when Keane talks about passion or energy as something that's missing - it could well be right; but I also feel like players in their prime gives us a very similar thing.

We saw it with Bruno - a player closer to his prime than he was 20 and it shook the whole club up when he moved and performed straight away.
Thats a good take.

The key to success under Fergie was having a good mix of experienced winners and some hungry youth players ready to take their place in the future. It breeds a good culture. We also lack leaders in the dressing room and on the pitch imo. Maguire is alright as a captian and Bruno seems like a leader, but outside of those two and maybe Rashford i can say there are many leader types in our squad.

Its pretty obvious what we need though. We need stability and a long term plan, but that seems impossible under the stewardship of Ed and co
 

RedBedlam

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All pertinent and good points. Usually starts from training ground, normally very competitive and you knew if you had a good session during the week , translated to the field at weekend. You do have the individuals that drive these sessions and also provide the inspiration and will to win on matchday. Not everyone gets on but when it comes to game time all that bs was forgotten and you wanted to smash the opposition. Yes training provides the opportunity for coaches to perfect(as much as possible) their formations and tactics depending on which team you are playing. Once on the field it's up to the players to perform to best of ability. Sure somebody said football is a simple game complicated by people who should know better. (Shankly)
 

reddevilz007

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With this Glazer/Woodward regime, we will not get back to the top, as their direction is more business oriented rather than sporting priorities.

Surprising that they seem to forget that if we’re more successful on the pitch, the commercial aspect would be even greater, therefore more profits/dividends for them on the long run. Isn’t that enough of an incentive ?
 

jadajos

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I'm going to say something different -

We need good players in their prime.
United have kind of tried that before (Lukaku, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, Pogba), it's just that it didn't work out because players were bought for their ability alone without any regard for building a proper team structure and identity of play.

Unfortunately there is no simple answer here, you need the whole integrated setup where everyone works in sync and all departments from scouting over recruiting to coaching follow the same long term plan.

Sure, you can buy players closer to their prime in the setup described above, that will shorten the path to success.

You could also do it like United are trying at the moment by developing a very young team over the long term and have them gel together for years. It takes longer but can have the same result. The problem is you can have the right idea but still fail to execute it in a successful way. And I think is that's were United currently stands...
 

Relevated

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With this Glazer/Woodward regime, we will not get back to the top, as their direction is more business oriented rather than sporting priorities.

Surprising that they seem to forget that if we’re more successful on the pitch, the commercial aspect would be even greater, therefore more profits/dividends for them on the long run. Isn’t that enough of an incentive ?
With the amount of money spent, and with the panic buys, I think he's just bad at his job. He isn't capable of getting us to the top, even if he wanted to.
 

jackal&hyde

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Consistent improvement and the big word is "patience". After seeing improvement last season it will never work if after 6 league games the next season you start wanting a reset. There are no magic bullets, just building correctly and consistently.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Liverpool's formula - Good coaching, good recruitment, and a desire to win.

Asides from good recruitment the other two is for the manager. We are not going to win titles if we don't have all those three features. We've had none these from our previous managers. Right now with Ole all we have is good recruitment of players.
 

wolvored

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Realistically, what do people think the steps are that we need to take to get back into a consistent, contending team? We can all agree that on our day we can go against and beat most sides in the world, but we have a serious issue with consistency both within our players and the overall system (or lack thereof) that they are put into. Short of "Glazer Out", spunking a bunch of money unrealistically, getting a DoF, or any other solutions that aren't going to happen, I want to know what people think.

My opinion:
1. Continue to spend big money on the young prospective stars of tomorrow. Our transfer strategy has been shown to be a sham with the Glazers refusing to spend big to reinforce the squad in consecutive years. However, our youth recruitment has been very good lately and is probably our best shot of forming a deep, talented squad while not relying on Ed Woodward to do so.

2. Get a manager that understands modern styles of play and implements his ideas on to players. Poch, Hassenhuttl, Nagelsmann, or whoever it is, we need someone who from day 1 implements instructions to his players that are simple and clear, and plays on the front foot through this. This manager also has to be someone with a track record of being a good man manager and developer of young players, as our squad will be quite young comparatively. Ole does well with the second, but it's clear at this point that he has holes in his knowledge when it comes to creating a clear pressing system and passages of play when we are dominating the ball. Midfielders and attackers are sat stagnant, while we aimlessly pass the ball waiting for an individual to create something out of nothing. Likewise, building from the back under pressure is a nightmare for us, and much of it has to do with players not moving to the proper areas in order to break the press. Obviously once we break through, we become lethal as teams push men forwards and allow our counter attacking to flourish. Credit to Ole for refining this, but he's clearly limited when it comes to the other facets of the game and it's part of our overall inconsistency.

3. Sell Pogba and Maguire, as well as continuing to flog off the deadwood eventually. Those two players are almost automatic starters in our first XI, but the limitations they bring to the team cause us to have to build around them to compensate, and it harms us in other areas. Maguire is dreadfully slow and struggles playing a high line, meaning we have to play multiple defensive minded midfielders in front to shield him as well one of the best defending full backs in the world next to him. Pogba provides exquisite passing and skill, but is completely devoid of any defensive instinct and forces us to, again, shield him in the side. I've never been a Pogba hater, but his limitations at this point are too much in the modern game with how important having energetic midfielders and a pressing system are.

If we manage these three things, I think the club's future is bright. It's obvious at this point that the squad has talented footballers, as well as our academy. But all we are right now is a team that blows hot and cold depending on the day, and the issues discussed above would go a long way towards raising both our floor and ceiling.
Agree with you.
 

wolvored

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Start by getting a DOF who is given a budget then works with the manager to get the right players in. Any money not used goes into the next seasons pot as an addition.
The DOF also has a long term vision on style of play and picks the manager accordingly, not neccessarily what big name is out there.
Get a manager and coaching staff who can improve players, tactics, in game coaching and not allow favouritism by picking players by form, not by name, or the price.
Only sign managers and coaches to 2 year contracts at first. If no improvement (top 4 unlikely in 2nd year minimum) then its easy to move on. If theres improvement then offer the same again. If theres titles and as a bonus cups won, then a 3 or max of 4 years offered if exceptional. Dont give 6 year contracts out keep the manager on his toes.
 

Strelok

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With this Glazer/Woodward regime, we will not get back to the top, as their direction is more business oriented rather than sporting priorities.

Surprising that they seem to forget that if we’re more successful on the pitch, the commercial aspect would be even greater, therefore more profits/dividends for them on the long run. Isn’t that enough of an incentive ?
Because the amount you have to spend to win titles is simply multiple of what you'd earn winning them.

We already have a very large fanbase, still the biggest in the world. And fans are usually very loyal. Even the club wouldn't win anything the fanbase would stay pretty much the same for at least the next 20 years. The worldwide football fanbase is also already divided among the clubs, there's basically no new market. From the business perspective, or of Ed and the Glazers, we don't need to come back to the top for them to earn money. Top 4 would be largely enough.
 

GenZRed

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I'm going to say something different -

We need good players in their prime.

I look at Liverpool and I see a very few young players at all (TAA, Gomez)- it all tends to be players in their prime (Mane, Salah,Widjnaldum,Henderson, Van Dijk, Allison, Thiago, Robertson etc).

City have a much larger squad with a significant amount in their prime or experienced aswell (KDB, Sterling, Aguero, Mahrez, Fernandinho, Laporte,Walker etc).

Even during the SAF era, we might have had young players like Ronaldo and Rooney developing- but where was it done? Around players of a prime or experience like RVN, Scholes, Giggs and others. It was the same way many of the class of 92 developed; around a prime that was later deemed not needed when the players of potential took over.

I feel when Keane talks about passion or energy as something that's missing - it could well be right; but I also feel like players in their prime gives us a very similar thing.

We saw it with Bruno - a player closer to his prime than he was 20 and it shook the whole club up when he moved and performed straight away.
This. I think people tend to forget the importance of mixing young players with great potential in with established first team players. Instead they usually focus just on the young players. Everyone knows about the Class of 92 but what about the players they learned from. We signed a young Ronaldo and Rooney and they had the likes of Keane and Scholes around, both of whom they would learn from and set the standards.
 

RedCoffee

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So you're saying Unites don't need a coach but a psychologist?
We continue to ruin great players and have been through so many managers and players over the last few years. Something else is wrong fundamentally wrong at the club. Both the coaching staff and the players simply can't deal with the pressure in my opinion which is our downfall every season. Until we solve this conundrum and get over it we are in a Liverpool type scenario. They went through exactly the same for 30 years.
 

Sandikan

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The one critical thing is getting the right manager who is coming towards the peak of their ability.
We have had past great managers, totally average managers, or those totally unproven.

That manager needs a proper modern style of attacking football, and to be backed to gradually piece together the players to suit it. Basically, what Klopp's done.

We haven't had anyone resembling a quality right winger for a decade now. Everyone seems to favour the left. It might not be as big an issue if you have a machine of an attacking right back, but we have one of the least attacking ones in the league.

We also seem to spend high amounts of money yet keep huge holes in the team. Centre back, right wing, defensive mid etc.
 

liamp

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Churn through managers quickly and with no shame or reproach until you find one that can carry the club on his back.
 

Offside

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Sack every manager when top 4 is in doubt until it happens to randomly click 20 years from now.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Recognise that the manager we have had served his time. He cleared out the worst of the squad and invested in players that will be here for 3-5 years.

Bring in a tactically astute manager that will pick up a domestic cup and 2 top four finishes in the next three years.

Age out our squad and continue to buy mature young players.

If a manager fails, bring in a successor that is similar in style and has a history of player management.

Spend a feck tonne of money on players with resale value when we look close to success.
 

Bebestation

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This. I think people tend to forget the importance of mixing young players with great potential in with established first team players. Instead they usually focus just on the young players. Everyone knows about the Class of 92 but what about the players they learned from. We signed a young Ronaldo and Rooney and they had the likes of Keane and Scholes around, both of whom they would learn from and set the standards.
It's this belief that SAF consistently built a young team when I dont think that was true. We invested in young players true - but when we look at his whole tenure here the class of 92 was ultimately there to some standard right up until the end of his tenure. That shows how important experience is and was during our more successful period. Even when that core was developing, as you said - they developed around an experienced group of players aswell.

All I see is people having a go at players like Rashford, Martial, Wan Bissaka, Greenwood, Shaw as a team over the last couple of years for not being consistent- I'm not saying that they are perfect but did they have the chance to play around a core experienced team ever?

These players are not the youngest players in the world either these days now but haven't got to play with a core team, structure of players.

Bruno came in last season and suddenly our front 3 looked deadly last season. Sure that was due to his creativity but that was also because he wasnt a young creative player either - he had an understanding of how to play football already and came in to the the squad as a ready made player.


I even look at a player like Telles & this is a total guess because I know he has been Ill but I think Shaw's improvement of crossing & taking corners recently that I've seen recently has surely some resonating with Telles being a player we have to incorporate in to our squad - again as a ready made player.

How would Telles have been if he was 21 or 22? I highly doubt he would be this fullback who would be taking corners and free kicks for a club like United & even if he didnt directly teach Shaw - having that type of 27 year old player in our squad leads to new tactics and styles of football that gets utelised in our squad ultimately gets in to the brain of our fullbacks. Just an example.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Get a manager who is modern with his tactical approach. Football has evolved, of our last 4 managers Moyes & Mourinho were stuck in the 2000’s & Van Gaal was stuck in the 90’s. Ole seemingly just wants to park the bus & hit teams on the break which isn’t a long term sustainable way of playing.

Competent ownership

Football people in control of the transfers
 

Danny_

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Not sacking Ole and getting rid of many of the current players
 

Acheron

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There's not a formula that will guarantee success but I think what Manchester City have done with their resources has been great and pretty much what you wanna do in terms of infrastructure and development of a consistent style within the whole club; and there's also what Liverpool has been doing under Klopp. For Manchester United it seems there isn't a plan to begin with and just rely on having a lot of resources and spending a lot to remain relevant.