What should Utd's footballing philosophy be?

[andycolegangstainnit]

I honestly would not mind seeing a return to good old-fashioned high-tempo 4-4-2 football and we have not exactly been pulling up trees since 2013 in which we seem to have tried every formation but it. I think Fergie decided to experiment with other formations because of Real Madrid beating us at Old Trafford in 2000, he lost his faith in 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 that night.

At the risk of sounding a real pedant I think it was the defeat to Bayern the following season that jettisoned those systems to the archives - we actually did well against Madrid and could have gone through if it wasn't for the heroics of Casillas.

The "United way" for me should be "fast, attacking, aggressive, winning football." There is enough latitude in there for a DoF to work with and virtually all managers apart from LvG, Simeone and Ranieri at Leicester could do as well. I thought our performance at Brighton was awful - slow and cautious - but our first half against spurs was excellent. On the front foot and dominated a very good team albeit for 45 mins until the wheels came off. The coach/managrer must have licence thought to tweak the tactics in certain situations. notably as SAF did in 2013 against Madrid when he realised they had better players and concentrated more on nullifying them (Welbz for Rooney in 2nd leg) than being creative ourselves.

We can achieve this by getting one more classy CB and switching to 3-5-2 as we did against Spurs. Allow Rashers to play as a striker (deep-lying) and press the opponent higher up the pitch. We also need more aggression from the players - let our red cards be for two robust challenges rather than fannying about with girly headbuts.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

There has to be something about giving your youth players a chance in there. I don't mean the odd game here and there, I mean a real run in the first team. Something that hasn't really happened in bulk since the class of '92.

Pogba wasn't given the chance he wanted and left. Rashford's chance only came through injuries.

Get Rashford and Lingard in the starting XI. Get Fosu-Mensah back and give him more game time along with McTominay and Pereira. Get Gomes and Chong in the squad and given minutes.

The club means more to these kids than highly paid mercenaries and their level of effort will reflect that.

I'd aim for 10 of the 25 man Premier League squad being Academy Graduates.

Fortunately this won't be the philosophy going forward. Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but that is just simply too idealistic. In the last 3 decades, it seems to have happened once with our CO 92 and once at Barcelona. As soon as those core groups moved on, both clubs looked to the market naturally.

 

[Messigician]

In regards to attacking football and Jose's apparent pragmatism, when Jose came to Barcelona for his job interview as he swore he would return he did impress the board with promises of attacking football and an incredible 22 slide PowerPoint presentation of his vision.

The board were split on the decision but ultimately decided to hire Pep based on Cruyff's recommendation and that Jose had disrespected Cruyff asking 'why is he here' as he was advising the board despite not having an official role at the club.

Also the fact we went through 2 awful years with LVG didn't help, as Mourinho wanted to continue LVG's media handling style of 'always negative never positive'

Xavi said that when Jose coaches the B team he played the Barcelona way fast fluid attacking football and he doesn't know why he's taken a different path these days.

Real Madrid goal scoring prowess under Mourinho was incredible and I do believe with the right personnel he can play attacking football and is trying to do that at United but the board need to back him for it to be a success. If they don't believe in his vision just sack him and hire Zidane.

 

[hn4manunited]

United's DNA and the current climate in Football Club Ownership, the philosophy has to be Results Oriented/Results Driven. Not pretty football first but results first, pretty football if we have the luxury to.

 

[andycolegangstainnit]

United's DNA and the current climate in Football Club Ownership, the philosophy has to be Results Oriented/Results Driven. Not pretty football first but results first, pretty football if we have the luxury to.

Nothing wrong with being results oriented (to win is the most important thing in sport) and it isn't incompatible with entertaining football. My fave styles were United 93/94, Arsenal 01-03 and United 07-09. all successful teams that played fast, aggressive, attacking and winning football. You need good players though to do it. Teams like Arsenal 07-12 played "pretty" football according to the media but I personally would go and watch five-a-side or futsal if I wanted that

 

[redIndianDevil]

I actually disagree, defending without attacking carries higher risk than attacking especially if you are a good side.

Both attacking and defending carry risk.

Like we saw against Brighton if you don't attack teams, you will invite them onto you to attack you. The best teams find the right balance between being attacking and defending.

However attacking teams have an advantage since they can compensate for defensive mistakes by scoring more goals than the opposition. A defensive side making a defensive error in a game has a serious problem. You also cannot win a league with 38 0-0 draws

It's based on one's opinion I guess, if you have technically poor players in attack and physically strong but slower players in defence, then it's risky to play attacking football. If you have good players in attack and slower and weaker players in defence and you try to attack, it's risky too.

Almost all teams and managers(save a very crazy few) when trying to play it safe keep men behind and try to defend, even the likes of Barcelona, Bayern etc do it, that shows that not attacking means not taking risks. Same for relegation battling teams, very few of them try to attack the opposition, they try to defend and play on the counter because they don't want to risk too much.

The same happens in tournaments like Euros, World Cups, teams want to keep it contact, don't take unnecessary risks

 

[Cassidy]

It's based on one's opinion I guess, if you have technically poor players in attack and physically strong but slower players in defence, then it's risky to play attacking football. If you have good players in attack and slower and weaker players in defence and you try to attack, it's risky too.

Almost all teams and managers(save a very crazy few) when trying to play it safe keep men behind and try to defend, even the likes of Barcelona, Bayern etc do it, that shows that not attacking means not taking risks. Same for relegation battling teams, very few of them try to attack the opposition, they try to defend and play on the counter because they don't want to risk too much.

No it shows they are willing to take a different type of risk. Any tactics has risk, attacking or defensive. Defensive tactics have risks of not scoring enough goals.
Which is why the best teams are the ones who are able to find the balance between attacking and defending and have balanced talents in those areas.

Some of it does come down to opinion, but in the basic form, defending carries risk and so does attacking, its just a different thing you are risking.
Risk of not scoring vs risk of conceding.

Teams that want to win titles don't have the benefit IMO of being able to risk not scoring enough goals, thats where the opinion comes in.

 

[hn4manunited]

Nothing wrong with being results oriented (to win is the most important thing in sport) and it isn't incompatible with entertaining football. My fave styles were United 93/94, Arsenal 01-03 and United 07-09. all successful teams that played fast, aggressive, attacking and winning football. You need good players though to do it. Teams like Arsenal 07-12 played "pretty" football according to the media but I personally would go and watch five-a-side or futsal if I wanted that

I don't disagree with what you said. It doesn't mean that we can't achieve results with entertaining football. However, I don't feel that it's acceptable to not achieve good results in favor of entertaining football. You quickly become an entertaining team like "fill in the blanks" without achievements.

The key point that I liked about your post is that to play entertaining football, we need good players, otherwise, the results will not follow. As we have seen even with Pep the season before them winning the league. If you looked at the styles and the teams you've highlighted, those are very specific years and few and far between for a single club. Many posters on this messageboard talks about it like it's easy to achieve big things while playing entertaining football.

 

[Ecstatic]

What would you suggest?

What should Utd's footballing philosophy be?

Is it too late to wish you "Happy Birthday"?

 

[FootyGirl88]

What should Utd's footballing philosophy be?

Is it too late to wish you "Happy Birthday"?

Lol it's never too late, thank you

 

[MU_Sid]

Chasing the ball only after it reaches well in our half. Somehow, if the opposition is not in Top 10 and loses possession, passing the ball around (taking 3-4 touches and looking at all the options then raising your hands to say why is no body here to receive this hot potato) between our midfield and defenders to our goalkeeper who gives it to the fullback who hoofs it to Lukaku who because he's surrounded by 3 defenders looses possession, rinse and repeat.

Anything but the above.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Sir Alex's philosophy - 4411 - Wing play.

Left and right midfielders - one cutting in and one keeping the width.

Centre midfielders - one to break up play and one to dictate.

Strikers - second striker and a main striker.

Full backs - Attacking full back, with a balanced full back.

Centre backs. No nonsense, with a composed centre back.

​

 

[99withaflake]

Seen two or three interviews with Rene Meulensteen recently, and in all of them he made the point that the coaching team were specifically instructed by Sir Alex to focus on the following;

Pace
Power
Penetration
Unpredictability

These were the 4 guiding principles that were pushed by the coaching team at all times, regardless of personnel, formations or specific tactics.

 

[MikeKing]

I'd like us to have a few more men in the box and just ignore the risk of conceding counters against us more often. Doesn't even have to be every game, but I think it would pay itself off with goals if we did go a bit crazy attack sometimes. If we could figure out what period of the game we should do the gungho lets get a goal thing, while keeping everything else tight around those periods, it would tick the box for unpredictability. We lack that edge and crazyness

 

[cyril C]

As long as you have a different Manager, or Head Coach, there is going to be different style and strategy. The purpose of a recruitment director, or technical director, is for someone to handle the process of recruitment, as well as offering professional advice to the GM. Recruiting a 29 years old player should be challenged (to the Manager) unless there is good justification and what to do with him after 3 years. Recruiting multiple 30 years old at ridiculous price, should also be challenged. Recruiting 5'8'' CB without EPL experience should also be challenged. LVG was a good example as he was allowed to recruit whoever he wants, putting Blind and Rojo as CB was a bad mistake, as they are simply too short/weak. If they are smart they might have spot Darmian's speed problem but OK he is an Italian international and the Board could be fool by his CV. I might accept the risk on Schweisteiger who nevertheless was a great player, the selection of Schneiderlin should have done better. There were so many French MF and we picked the worst. I accept the risk on young players like Shaw, Martial and Depay, but the Board should be informed of Sanchez' preferred position and seriously challenged Mourinho on why he needs another left wing.

In short, the purpose of a technical director is NOT to bulldoze your Manager, unless you hire a junior coach who never has any say. The purpose of a technical director is to challenge every decision, to make your Manager WORK on his strategy, presenting his argument with a cohesive strategy as what is his intention.

One final word. Let's say you think your philosophy is to collect a large group of young talents with attacking instinct, but you cannot afford them time to grow because qualifying CL is a MUST. You think we should attack attack attack with at least 50 Xross into the box from either side, but you hire an Italian manager who thinks safety first. These are all contradicting and for good or bad you must trust your manager to do his job. So your technical director is really a safety net to ensure we don't need to flush out the 1st team every 3 years.

 

[meamth]

I think this is the same old thread. I've seen this discussion before.

 

[Marcky411]

Sad to think we need a thread like this after 2 years with Jose, just shows you how bad it is under him. Other managers sort out the style and philosophy of the team within the first 3 to 6 months of their reign.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

It will be 352 with a false CB and a False number 9.

The false CB can play the ball directly to the false number 9 or bring the wing backs in to play whilst the false 9 can take on the CB's himself or bring the inverted forwards in to play. Midfielders will be primarily playing box to box down each channels.

Rashford - Lukaku
Martial(false 9)
Shaw-Pogba - Fred/Pereira--dalot
Fellaini (false CB)
Lindelöf/Rojo - Smalling/Bailly.


Ideally we should be trying to get like players like de ligt for LCB. Someone like Frenkie De Jong who could play False CB with more attacking dribbling ability.

Buying RW etc is a waste of time. I'd like to see Sanchez as a CM too but that is just a wish.

 

[Physiocrat]

• Play a proactive attacking style of football (home or away)
• Emphasise flair/trickery and unleash our attacking players again - make it fun for them
• Respect the history of the club and actively engage with the past, challenge the players to win and entertain in equal measure, don't accept anything less
• Exhilarating Wing play - Best, Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Kanchelskis.. its in our blood!
• Put the fans first again.. stop dividing us, we all want to win and be entertained, stop making us pick one or the other when the rival elite sides seem to be able to do both quite easily
• Sign dynamic exciting players who are technically on par with players who you'd expect to play for your Bayerns/Madrids and Barca (no donkeys or slow players).
• Promote the more technically gifted youngsters and integrate them into our first team. It seems the more technically gifted a United youngster is, the less chances he has of making it here. The likes of Pereira.. generally seem to have no chance here, but more efficient youngsters who play a more limited game seem to break through into the side more. We need to try our best to incorporate the more skilful youngsters into our set up in order to avoid another Pogba situation.
• No more hoof-ball under pressure. Play out from the back at all costs and commit to it. All the top sides seem to be able to do this.. why are we the only remaining elite club who kicks it long under pressure all the time, or passes it back whenever we get pressed
• Win the ball back more quickly, sick of us playing such a reactive defensive game when Fergie sides at their best were fast paced and looked to win the ball back quickly

Added to this, I would say formation is less of an issue it is more the attitude we take to the pitch and the overarching philosophy. Ideally something which certainly incorporates width and if not, bare minimum to compensate should be super attacking wing-backs. Width, Width is key. A strong midfield, which allows us to play on the front foot in any game and we should never park the bus in any game (and should offer a counter-attacking threat at bare minimum in every game even the tough fixtures like Anfield).

I think I'm happy to have some more pragmatic individual games and am happy with slower players (I'm thinking of Berba here) than you but pretty much this. I really don't think such an approach is that restrictive hiring wise for a manager. It allows for a myriad of formations and particular setups. If we don't adopt such an approach even with a DoF we could still become very choppy with a mismatch of styles between managers.

 

[Rash Decision]

I don't think Manchester United's footballing philosophy should be tied to any one way of playing, such as 442 with wingers or counterattacking football or whatnot. It's too restrictive and doesn't leave very much room for adaptation as football, managers, and players inevitably evolve. When I think of Manchester United football, I think of footballing excellence, expressed in terms of a finely-tuned balance of entertaining flair and winning pragmatism, steeped in tradition and with a constant mind to its roots through the active promotion of youth and academy products. Idealists, because we strive for the best of all worlds, but not ideologues, prioritising style of play over all else; neither do we focus solely on winning while forgetting to entertain. I think managing to balance all these while winning trophy after trophy is a core part of the Man Utd legend and romanticism, and should be what we always strive to adhere to.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Attacking Aggression Entertaining Winning, Class Heart Youth.

(3rd one comes from the first two. 4th comes naturally from the first three. The final three are like special bonuses.)

That's the United I grew up with, and the United I learned.

 

[manutddjw]

I thought about this and the first thing I would do before anything else is hire Rio in a coaching capacity.

He knows and loves the club and what’s expected, and can relate to our young players the way others can’t. He came up in an era where there was hazing and they were still expected to clean senior players boots. Shame we don’t live in that era because it turned boys into men. He’s got a perfect mix of old school and can still talk about Drake with our young players.

 

[Kapardin]

I don't mind counter attacking football. When done right, it's a treat to watch.

If not that, I'd like a style similar to Madrid in recent years as well. Under Ancelotti and peak Zidane (2nd season), they played some brilliant stuff.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Attacking Aggression Entertaining Winning, Class Heart Youth.

(3rd one comes from the first two. 4th comes naturally from the first three. The final three are like special bonuses.)

That's the United I grew up with, and the United I learned.

AAEWCHY. Or, Orchy. I like it!

 

[Sky1981]

Win - Style - Youth

(can only pick 2)

What would you pick?

 

[ivaldo]

Win - Style - Youth

(can only pick 2)

What would you pick?

You'd be crazy if you picked any but the first two.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Pay 2 win, just keep spending and you'l get there eventually. It's what all the top dogs (bar Bayern) do.

Ideally mix in some youth, but I think to truly compete at the top you have to let youngsters develop at lesser clubs. You simply can't afford to give them any real game time unless they're Mbappé level good.

 

[reonhan]

To play hard and became champions

 

[Sky1981]

You'd be crazy if you picked any but the first two.

Basically the oil daddy route.

My point is that you can't have it all in football. Wanting eveything is one thing, whether it's realistic is another thing.

 

[Sky1981]

Pay 2 win, just keep spending and you'l get there eventually. It's what all the top dogs (bar Bayern) do.

Ideally mix in some youth, but I think to truly compete at the top you have to let youngsters develop at lesser clubs. You simply can't afford to give them any real game time unless they're Mbappé level good.

Not all youth can be a united standard player though, regardless of how many games you give them.

We could be spending 3 to 5 years to develop fosu mensah for example and still ended up with phil jones mkii.

Some fans thinks that all it takes for young player to become ronaldo is a good manager and a game time. Ronaldo could be coached by david moyes and he'll still become a great player (+-5 percent of manager influence). Messi has been coached by so many managers that doesn't made him any less of a player. Ditto xavi and inniesta.

Saf had many flops among the youth he developed and nurture as well.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Not all youth can be a united standard player though, regardless of how many games you give them.

We could be spending 3 to 5 years to develop fosu mensah for example and still ended up with phil jones mkii.

Some fans thinks that all it takes for young player to become ronaldo is a good manager and a game time. Ronaldo could be coached by david moyes and he'll still become a great player (+-5 percent of manager influence). Messi has been coached by so many managers that doesn't made him any less of a player. Ditto xavi and inniesta.

Saf had many flops among the youth he developed and nurture as well.

Indeed, having young players is nice, but it shouldn't be a goal just for the sake of it. In the end you have to field the 11 best players you can field by any means. Whether they're 16, 26 or 156 is irrelevant. Just field the guys who have the most chance to outscore their opponents on that given day. It's as simple as that. Ofcourse you need to look at the future to try and avoid another situation like this where all your stars retire or pass their peak without adequate replacements, but in the end a good 18 year old isn't as good as a very good 35 year old.

Developing players is for shite leagues like ours

 

[tomaldinho1]

Fortunately this won't be the philosophy going forward. Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but that is just simply too idealistic. In the last 3 decades, it seems to have happened once with our CO 92 and once at Barcelona. As soon as those core groups moved on, both clubs looked to the market naturally.

I agree and also, whilst not downplaying the abilities of those two groups of players, both PL and La Liga are surely more comeptitve nowadays. I'm sure academy prospects will filter through now and then but it would be folly to base your philosophy on them. Football is becoming a win first,count the cost later type competition. I think you buy players at or just before their peak and forget about 'resale' value if you want to win things.

Philosophy should be about entertainment for me, it probably won't win you things but we're consumers and without fans football wouldn't exist. Would love to see more flair, higher scoring games and two teams attacking each other for 90mins.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Sir Alex's philosophy - 4411 - Wing play.

Left and right midfielders - one cutting in and one keeping the width.

Centre midfielders - one to break up play and one to dictate.

Strikers - second striker and a main striker.

Full backs - Attacking full back, with a balanced full back.

Centre backs. No nonsense, with a composed centre back.

​

Nothing better to watch when we are the dominant side but those CL games where we had our wingers pinned back and were controlled by Barca’s midfield were painful.

 

[Mcking]

Klopp's style is my favourite. Any similar manager out there?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Don't think anyone can compare to this guy

 

[Needham]

Speed doesn't matter as much as direction.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Nothing better to watch when we are the dominant side but those CL games where we had our wingers pinned back and were controlled by Barca’s midfield were painful.

It was painful, to be honest. Don't necessarily think we'd have to be the dominant side, though. Sitting back and countering teams were a joy to watch.

 

[breakout67]

Don't think anyone can compare to this guy

Suicide football and lose 6 finals in a row? United should be the new Liverpool you are saying?

 

[OutOfTowner]

Don't think anyone can compare to this guy

I don't think anyone wants to compare to that guy. Not if they don't to come across as an escaped mental patient gibbering into a wooden spoon.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Suicide football and lose 6 finals in a row? United should be the new Liverpool you are saying?

Thought the silly picture made it pretty obvious I wasnt conplimenting the guy