What South Asians need to do to break into the Professional Game...

Peter van der Gea

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It's due to the lack of ethnic (footballing) role models. People of all races are influenced, and often "copy" from their social circles. There is nothing of such sorts for South Asians in football. There is for cricket, and more footballers have to reach out to South Asian communities specifically. Share their stories, their journey, their joys, and build the passion from grassroots.
Or, when you play a sport that has people from your race already playing, you get less racism, so you feel comfortable there.

My hero was Schmeichel, not because he was brown, but because he played the position I love. I'm British, born here, watched and played football all my life. It was his ability and passion that I followed, why would him being blond make a difference?
 

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It's a cop out-to say British Asian parents only want their kids to become doctors and lawyers. The same stereotype is supposedly true for British African parents, but that hasn't prevented a fantastic uptake from that part of society. It's also particularly nonsensical when you look at the levels of unemployment and poverty found in some British Asian communities. Of course those families want their kids to be playing football instead of picking up the dole or driving taxis or working in a kebab shop.

There are around 5 million British Asian people in this country. Whether or not you believe the factors listed in the rest of the thread, their representation in English football should still be greater that what it is. At the very least, you can accept the population numbers are available and so is the level of enthusiasm for the sport. From there, it doesn't take a big leap to figure out that a not-insignificant number of kids must also possess the requisite ability to make it (by simple law of averages, if nothing else).

If you want to play the numbers game, we can also do that. Out of 7% of the UK, let's say Asian kids and families are only half as interested in football as everyone else (I don't think that's anywhere close to reality, but whatever). That would still mean we should expect 3.5% of homegrown professionals to come from their background. We could go further and believe British Asians are only half as athletic as everyone else (a guesstimate not borne out by participation levels in other sports, but again whatever). The proportion would still be expected to be around 1.75%, and that's as a worst case. Instead, we're practically seeing 0%. The problem is so absolute and so irreconcilable with any sober analysis that it points to something deeper and more institutional.
 

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Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.
Technique over the last 20 years has been the single most important driver in the coaching of kids. The days of kids doing situps and sprints and long runs at training for any decent coach are long gone. What has happened is that the overall technique of players has increased significantly. Take an average journeyman player today and compare them to a similar player of 20 years ago and there is a clear improvement.
It all works like a pyramid, to get more out at the top the base needs to be broader. There is still a need to improve the base with respect to technique, athletic ability can be improved once a player has hit their late teens and early 20s, technique is much more difficult to see decent improvements.
 

SirScholes

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Is there an issue here?

the story is - not many south Asians are in professional football as they lack the ambition/dedication/commitment needed to!

It is not a bad thing to prioritise other things such as education but if parents and/or children aren't prepared to put the time in to training and diet to get to the very top, what do they want, an easier pass there?

Pollitical correctness gone mad!
Yer i think ironically you're actually the one who is too sensitive here, they are trying to find the answers as to why they lack the bolded parts above.
 

Zlatattack

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The height thing is not accurate. South Asia is a huge area, covers nearly a quarter of the world's population. There is a lot of genetic variety there.

Most British Asians are from the N.W of the region, namely Punjab, KPK, and Kashmir. There are significant communities from Gujrat and Bangladesh and increasing communities from South India but the majority are Punjabi, Kashmiri or pukhtun by origin.

People from these regions tend to be a taller than average, especially for South Asia.
 

VidaRed

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The height thing is not accurate. South Asia is a huge area, covers nearly a quarter of the world's population. There is a lot of genetic variety there.

Most British Asians are from the N.W of the region, namely Punjab, KPK, and Kashmir. There are significant communities from Gujrat and Bangladesh and increasing communities from South India but the majority are Punjabi, Kashmiri or pukhtun by origin.

People from these regions tend to be a taller than average, especially for South Asia.
Most people don't understand this.
 

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It's a cop out-to say British Asian parents only want their kids to become doctors and lawyers. The same stereotype is supposedly true for British African parents, but that hasn't prevented a fantastic uptake from that part of society. It's also particularly nonsensical when you look at the levels of unemployment and poverty found in some British Asian communities. Of course those families want their kids to be playing football instead of picking up the dole or driving taxis or working in a kebab shop.

There are around 5 million British Asian people in this country. Whether or not you believe the factors listed in the rest of the thread, their representation in English football should still be greater that what it is. At the very least, you can accept the population numbers are available and so is the level of enthusiasm for the sport. From there, it doesn't take a big leap to figure out that a not-insignificant number of kids must also possess the requisite ability to make it (by simple law of averages, if nothing else).

If you want to play the numbers game, we can also do that. Out of 7% of the UK, let's say Asian kids and families are only half as interested in football as everyone else (I don't think that's anywhere close to reality, but whatever). That would still mean we should expect 3.5% of homegrown professionals to come from their background. We could go further and believe British Asians are only half as athletic as everyone else (a guesstimate not borne out by participation levels in other sports, but again whatever). The proportion would still be expected to be around 1.75%, and that's as a worst case. Instead, we're practically seeing 0%. The problem is so absolute and so irreconcilable with any sober analysis that it points to something deeper and more institutional.
You're making a very large assumption that the rate of people with the potential to play football at an elite-level is consistent across all ethnicities. However it's clearly not true given the disproportionate number of players with African or Caribbean heritage in the English national team. If South Asians are not as athletic as other ethnicities, it would be unlikely realised as a binary factor of half being unable to make it but the other half remaining in with a chance, it's far more realistic that the factors inhibiting athleticism, such as genetics, diet or culture, would be dispersed across the entire group. As such, even the most athletic South Asians would not perform favourably compared with the most athletic from other ethnicities.

Every time I've heard this subject matter discussed there has always been the same underlying error of assuming that given enough participation the rates of representation from all ethnicities should normalise to their population rates. This ignores the reality of how extremely rare it is have the talent to be an elite footballer and also the luck to fulfil that potential. The footballing ability of the average person from each ethnicity is likely to be similar but professional footballers aren't average, they are from the extreme end of the distribution across multiple factors. Marginal advantages or disadvantages are amplified within this group since any mediocre performers across any relevant factor have been filtered out. You are comparing the best and selecting from them. To illustrate the point with a simple example imagine we had a country with a population of 100,000 people and two ethnicities, 10,000 of A and 90,000 of B. The overall rate of producing footballers is extremely rare at just 0.03% which if it was consistent across A and B would produce 3 footballers in A and 27 in B and the population rates would be preserved. But if A had some minor advantage, say a higher prevalence of very high-level co-ordination, resulting in their chances marginally improving to 0.1% then the rate of B would be 0.0222% producing 10 and 20 footballers respectively. The chances of any person from A or B becoming a footballer, without knowing any prior information about them, is still extremely rare but the rates at which each group does produce them is disproportionate with A over-represented by more than a factor of 3 because of a minor improvement in their rate of producing footballers.

What is also worth taking into consideration is that there is a natural limit to the number of footballers there can ever be at one time. The 20 Premier League clubs can only have 25 players in their squad. This inevitably creates a non-static threshold to becoming a Premier League footballer. Unlike most other jobs, where the number of opportunities isn't heavily bounded, the criteria to qualify remains stable over time. The requirements to be a doctor, lawyer, electrician or accountant have not changed rapidly over the last few decades since the amount of work and jobs has risen in tandem. But imagine a world there are initially 500 electricians and only ever enough work for 500 yet over time almost everyone wanted to be one, it would create a competition of increasing intensity amongst each other pushing the qualifying criteria further away from first the ordinary, then the good, then the great to leave only the excellent with a realistic chance of meeting it. That has been the case over the last few decades with football, it is clearly evident when comparing the fitness and athleticism of players today to those in the 90s. Football clubs, schools and parents are having increased involvement in getting children on the path to being a professional footballer at an earlier age, which is pushing the threshold towards those with detectable advantages at an early-age, likely to be hereditary, that also grow up within a household that emphasises football as a career. I suspect there aren't that many South Asians of that type.

Selecting for small groups based on extreme criteria will lead to noticeable discrepancies compared to rates in the wider population since marginal advantages between sub-groups make a difference. It is not a phenomenon exclusive to football, it's apparent in almost every other sport, applications for the world's best Universities, and high-paying prestigious careers. Therefore the lack of South Asians in professional football isn't that shocking. Their conspicuous absence might be but the main population centres of South Asians (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.) don't take football seriously enough for any rare potential to be realised. What I would then ask is should it be seen as a problem? Football isn't a perfect meritocracy but it's closer to it than almost everything else. The form of the product itself informs an objective view over who is capable that can't be deduced for most other occupations. I would argue that the few thousand British professional footballers are close to being the best few thousand at kicking a ball around in the UK and had been even before they turned professional. I'm South Asian myself and I struggle to understand what the motivating issue is for the ordinary South Asian to not have anyone of their resemblance playing football professionally.

There could be a case to be made for bias against South Asians when they are being passed over for trials or training due to clubs, or scouts, wanting to put their efforts into known quantities leading to a negative feedback loop. A club might be presented with two players of equal talent, with only one of the being South Asian, but only have the funds to train one and choose the non-South Asian since they are seen as having a greater chance of making it based on the demographics of current footballers thus further compounding the problem. I'd argue it's a rational decision by the club, from their point of view, to focus their resources into those they feel less uncertainty around. I'm not saying their view is correct, their view of the future trajectories of these players might be unfounded, however it is the one minimising risk based on experience. The even stronger counter-argument is that Premier League clubs don't work under such constraints since an academy player is magnitudes cheaper to train than buying one, so it's in their best interests to find any train any player they thought had potential. The fact that not many South Asian players are in Premier League academies suggests that few thousand best at kicking a ball around in the UK doesn't consist of many South Asians at all.
 
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The Mitcher

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Mate, there are Asian artists, musicians, poets, authors, builders, plumbers, silicon valley entrepreneurs, basically any job you can think of, not every Asian goes into STEM subjects or pushed that way. It's a bit of a stereotype saying that they do.

When you have South Asians saying that, yes, there is racism in football, that they've experienced it, maybe listen.
Why should I trust what they say? Why would the football clubs allow almost every race but their's into their ranks if they are racist? And sure, not EVERY Asian goes into STEM, yet look at the British music scene. How many are of Indian or Pakistani descent? Not many, at least not many in the mainstream. Also I've not met many asian builders or plumbers, I have met loads of white and black ones though. I've met more Asian entreupeners and business owners than Black ones. It's almost like different ethnicities have different things they want to do in life or have to do due to different standings in life.
 

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India has as many inhabitants as Africa as a whole: Yet, they neither win gold medals in the olympics nor do they have world class athletes in football or any other sport which is popular in in the western world with the exception of chess. They even lose in cricket regularly to Australia which recruits its talents from a way smaller pool of players. In Philippines Basketball is the most popular sport. But no player was so far good enough to make it to the NBA. In Germany or Croatia Basketball isn't the main sport but they managed this easily.

So, sure you can blame it on racism or nutrition or culture but you have to be very ignorant to do so.
 

Josep Dowling

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Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.
This is a particular issue in the UK. You look at most of England’s youth teams and it’s full of players who are physically already men at their age. I think it’s shortsighted personally and would rather they looked at technical ability over height and athleticism. Technical ability is much harder to ingrain into players as they get older. Probably one of the reason England are so far behind in winning the major trophies, yet in recent history have dominated a lot of the youth trophies. Under 20s and below anyway.
 

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This is a particular issue in the UK. You look at most of England’s youth teams and it’s full of players who are physically already men at their age. I think it’s shortsighted personally and would rather they looked at technical ability over height and athleticism. Technical ability is much harder to ingrain into players as they get older. Probably one of the reason England are so far behind in winning the major trophies, yet in recent history have dominated a lot of the youth trophies. Under 20s and below anyway.
I don't know if that really holds true. The England side that won the under 17 world cup a few years ago had the likes of Foden, CHO, Angel Gomes, Jadon Sancho, Conor Gallagher and Rhain Brewster as the better players.

None of them really had physical advantages, all being shortarses. Sancho is lightning fast but none of the others even have that going for them.

In the Chelsea setup, our most promising recent youth players have been Mount, CHO and Gilmour. Reece James is only 5'9" but he is a bit of a tank so I won't use him as an example of someone without a physical advantage
 

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Back in Uni in London we had a local team at Mile End and we used to play twice a week. Loads of Asians played and we're quite good both technically and physically with bags of stamina. We used to play even during Ramadan. The talent and ability was there.

I think there's something institutional involved because it's strange that only the likes of Zesh Rehman at Fulham and Micheal Chopra (Newcastle, Leicester), Chowdry (Leicester) have played in the Premier League, maybe missed out one or two. It's not for the lack of talent and enthusiasm, yes they love cricket but most of my Asian mates are footy mad so it's something that needs to be looked at deeper.
 

arnie_ni

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It seems like it's more a homegrown issue than anything. Asians need to change their own culture to make it happen, moreso than being held back back racism?

Or have I misunderstood
 

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The point about professional cricketers is a good one. Are we saying the issues around diet and commitment don’t apply here? Or it’s perceived as a less risky choice of career?
South Asian parents have generally been less suspicious of cricket because it’s a popular sport for them culturally.
 

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Another overlooked point is that there’s quite a big drinking culture amongst certain South Asian groups. Drinking hard liquor from when you’re around 16 isn’t conducive to professional sport. That, allied with fatty diet and conservative parents with a closed minded view of the world, doesn’t lend itself to breaking into elite level sport.

I have no idea whether there are institutional biases blocking pathways, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped a lot of Black lads making it big.
 

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South Asian parents have generally been less suspicious of cricket because it’s a popular sport for them culturally.
I wonder if we’re past that point now. The young footballers coming through today have parents in their 40s. Who grew up in the UK absolutely obsessed with football. I doubt they have the same attitudes as their parents about cricket vs soccer.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Another overlooked point is that there’s quite a big drinking culture amongst certain South Asian groups. Drinking hard liquor from when you’re around 16 isn’t conducive to professional sport. That, allied with fatty diet and conservative parents with a closed minded view of the world, doesn’t lend itself to breaking into elite level sport.

I have no idea whether there are institutional biases blocking pathways, but that doesn’t seem to have stopped a lot of Black lads making it big.
The biases aren’t flat out racism. White good. Everyone else bad. They’re assuming that Asians can’t be good at football but black/white kids can. No idea if this mindset exists but it certainly might.
 

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I wonder if we’re past that point now. The young footballers coming through today have parents in their 40s. Who grew up in the UK absolutely obsessed with football. I doubt they have the same attitudes as their parents about cricket vs soccer.
You’re right, we are in the middle of massive cultural change. I even see it in my dad who is now 60 and as liberal in his outlook as ever. I married a white Jewish woman, which means me and my family are exposed to much more variation in terms of rituals, traditions, etc. I’m seeing across the board that South Asians are becoming so much less insular. Assuming my experience is reflective of wider trends, you would think it’s only a matter of time before South Asians are better represented across a number of different industries they’ve never previously broken into.
 

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The biases aren’t flat out racism. White good. Everyone else bad. They’re assuming that Asians can’t be good at football but black/white kids can. No idea if this mindset exists but it certainly might.
Yep, I would agree with this. And, actually, as I was typing out my last few posts, I did wonder whether my explanations - and many others in this thread - only serve to reinforce stereotypes that lead scouts / decision makers at clubs to hold the same unintentionally discriminatory views.
 

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It's not just football; great trainers in martial arts get hooked, for whatever reason, before really trying to make the best of their potential by aiming to go pro. Outliers exist: Naseem Hamed and Amir Khan, being the most famous ones, but there are multiple fold more with the ability who don't get a chance to test out.

In my own experience with South Asians in football, martial arts and even rugby, there comes a point where the path splits and a choice needs to be made, and again, in my own experience, they themselves opt out of pursuit. When I say 'they' I don't know if that is pressure from parents or their own hesitancy/issues, but it is a stark contrast to what I've seen from those of other backgrounds.

I think, also, even in terms of sport, those who I've known who were good at the aforementioned also had an aptitude, or love for, cricket. And if you gave them the choice, it's a no-brainer which career path they'd take as a sportsman. It would be a study in itself to see how many talented professional cricketers of South Asian descent chose that over football or another sport.

The size debate isn't a debate - techno-midgets and numerous superstars of today are small, fragile and not particularly athletically gifted. Even *if* size were a barrier in and of itself, pre-requisite levels of technique and intelligence have shown time and again, you can still make it as a pro footballer.

If football was as accepted as cricket, I would be curious to see how much the numbers would diversify from what the current status quo is. Many more trying out; many failing, but a solid amount would make it as professionals, in some capacity, would be my guess.

The next 10-15 years should also be interesting as the influence of parents no older than 45 are force fed to their own kids, with no doubt many as footy/boxing/MMA mad as their dad's were/are cricket-mad being strong markers for what kids look to aspire to in the world of sport.
 

Peter van der Gea

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Why should I trust what they say? Why would the football clubs allow almost every race but their's into their ranks if they are racist? And sure, not EVERY Asian goes into STEM, yet look at the British music scene. How many are of Indian or Pakistani descent? Not many, at least not many in the mainstream. Also I've not met many asian builders or plumbers, I have met loads of white and black ones though. I've met more Asian entreupeners and business owners than Black ones. It's almost like different ethnicities have different things they want to do in life or have to do due to different standings in life.
So you're saying MY life experiences are you untrustworthy? My memories of being told that there was no point coming to training because I would only be running a corner shop like my old man, didn't happen?

And there have been more than a few mainstream British Asian musicians, but being in a band allows some anonymity, unless you're paying attention, that might pass you by.

I dunno where you live, but there are LOADS of Asians comin' over 'ere a taking all the construction jobs, been doing it for years.

I think you'll find that in the billion plus South Asians, we do all kinds of jobs and built in different ways.

As I mentioned before, I'm 6' 5", how tall are you?
 

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Or, when you play a sport that has people from your race already playing, you get less racism, so you feel comfortable there.

My hero was Schmeichel, not because he was brown, but because he played the position I love. I'm British, born here, watched and played football all my life. It was his ability and passion that I followed, why would him being blond make a difference?
where is racism? And its stupid to bring it here.

its the lack of football social circle or basically ethnic role models. South Asians are generally family oriented and copy/inspire their careers from their surrounding people. They dont go towards the football schools nor such people.
 

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where is racism? And its stupid to bring it here.

its the lack of football social circle or basically ethnic role models. South Asians are generally family oriented and copy/inspire their careers from their surrounding people. They dont go towards the football schools nor such people.
I think racism will definitely have been a barrier in football. Even more so in the lower leagues, national leagues and grassroots football. When I played racism was rife and slurs were common. Unlike the poster you quoted I'm white so while I didn't have any racist slurs directed at myself, I saw and heard plenty of discriminatory remarks. Jhai Dillon has spoken out about the abuse he faced while playing in the lower rungs of the football pyramid, Chopra has spoken out about how the South Asian community is overlooked. It definitely plays a large role imo. I coach at a small academy and things like accessibility, tolerance etc are far more important than they were while I was playing, and hopefully this can lead to everyone being allowed a chance within the footballing world.

There's also misconceptions about the community and how football orientated it trends within the FA at large. The idea that they as a whole are less invested in football for cultural reasons is incorrect. We have studies by Manchester university showing that British Bangladeshi boys played more football than their White British counterparts. Recently we had the former FA chairman say that British South Asians would rather work in IT than play football. Is it any wonder that there is a lack of South Asian footballers when the head of English football can have such a warped misconception of such a large swathe of our community?

Back in Uni in London we had a local team at Mile End and we used to play twice a week. Loads of Asians played and we're quite good both technically and physically with bags of stamina. We used to play even during Ramadan. The talent and ability was there.

I think there's something institutional involved because it's strange that only the likes of Zesh Rehman at Fulham and Micheal Chopra (Newcastle, Leicester), Chowdry (Leicester) have played in the Premier League, maybe missed out one or two. It's not for the lack of talent and enthusiasm, yes they love cricket but most of my Asian mates are footy mad so it's something that needs to be looked at deeper.

Neil Taylor is another off the top of my head, and maybe Yan Dhanda has a pl appearance, I'm not sure.
 

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First you need a decent league, grassroots football and the nation to fall in love with the sport as its ‘first sport.’
Then maintain investment into the sport and wait a few decades.

Without these fundamentals it won’t create the necessary environment to nurture generations of kids good enough to make it elsewhere.
 

Cristiano87

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where is racism? And its stupid to bring it here.

its the lack of football social circle or basically ethnic role models. South Asians are generally family oriented and copy/inspire their careers from their surrounding people. They dont go towards the football schools nor such people.
This is another problem, why are you spouting this gibberish? It's basically a racist comment, "Oh, they just want to be Doctors or own a corner shop" Get out. I am another mixed Asian person who would have loved to have played football professionally, I am 34 now. I believe i had the technical ability to be a good footballer and could have worked on the physical side of it. Football coaches presumably dismissed me pretty quickly.
 

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Is is stunning to me that even with internet access people can really think that they don't play football in Asia. This is real ignorance.
 

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Surely it's mostly about physique, football has become less about technique and more about athletic ability.

Modern footballers are on average 180-182 cm on average, South Asians are on average 165 cm. That's a 15cm difference, so unless they can somehow start to produce much bigger peoeple and turn them into proper footballers it will be difficult.

Edit: I mean this as in breaking into the European or big leagues.
If anything, the game has gotten less physical in recent years. Not even CBs have tonbe strong and tall anymore. IMO there's a clear shift towards technique and tactics happening during the last 10-15 years. The only physical element that got nore important is stamina.
 

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In my personal experience I don't think it is due to physical limitations. Rather I think, when push comes to shove, and the kid/their family have to decide what to pursue, people with South Asian heritage will more likely either hedge their bets or decided against it.

What is kind of being lost here is just how hard and demanding it is to be a pro footballer and the sacrifices the players have to make from a very young age; gone are the days of playing with your mate in the park until your 15/16, then getting scouted. Kids/families have to make that decision at 9-12 these days. Then once they do make that decision, they have to prioritise football over everything else; school, social events, family occasions etc.

Now this isn't saying that this is true of every single Asian family, as clearly there are differences in all communities and they aren't any different. However, if you look at the community as a whole, you will see they are more conservative/pragmatic. Hence, when they get presented with the risk involved (I mean what is the percentage of kids of go into an academy who come out earning decent money at pro football? Got to be under 1%) they are more likely (read: not exclusively) to reject that.
 
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Peter van der Gea

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where is racism? And its stupid to bring it here.

its the lack of football social circle or basically ethnic role models. South Asians are generally family oriented and copy/inspire their careers from their surrounding people. They dont go towards the football schools nor such people.
The racism is there with the coaches and the team mates. I've personally said it's happened to me, other people on here have said it's happened to them and they've seen it happen and premiership footballers have said there's a problem. It doesn't seem to exist in your brain.

Go to a park in any town (after lockdown) and you'll find an Asian playing football. This is England, we ALL play football. Our social circle is the kids at our school, the kids on our street. We don't have Jim Crow laws in the UK.