Is the squirearchy complaining because they can't keep polluting the planet like they used to?
What the heck is going on with the Netherlands?
- Thread starter George Owen
- Start date
First claims that it’s becoming a narco state, and now this!?
I’m just glad its not the US this time
I’m just glad its not the US this time
What's up with the new rules?
Essentially, yes.
The EU has set nitrogen emission thresholds, and the Netherlands far exceed those. The government twice tried to get out of taking measures through different calculation tricks, but this has twice been rejected in court. So, drastic measures are now really required. But just at with climate change, no-one wants to lose anything. Add to that a variety of conspiracy theories (most prominently that the measurement methods are unreliable, and that the government wants to get rid of all farmer), and things get nasty.
It's all very ridiculous and also a sad indictment of the lack of social cohesion in the country.
Any workarounds?
They tried that and it got shot down in court. The country really needs to drastically reduce its nitrogen emissions. The problem for the Netherlands is that it's very densely inhabited and has a lot of intensive agriculture as well. It's just too much and something's gotta give.
Currently, what's giving is housing and other construction, since in quite a few areas nothing can be built until the nitrogen budget is reduced. But that's untenable, since the population keeps growing and there is already pretty much a housing crisis. Various sectors will have to give in, but agriculture will be hit hardest, also because many farms are located next to nature reserves (where stricter rules apply).
It's not that bad really, lost of farmers can remain (even if quite a few will have to switch to less intensive/more biological/organic methods), and others will be bought out for good money. But the general mindset, fueled by those conspiracy theories and populist demagogues (and clumsiness from the government in the messaging!), is very combative and currently a significant group of farmers is just declaring war on the government, and maybe even society in general.
It's not pretty and a heck of a mess. Another sensitive file that the Rutte government has completely mismanaged.
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Wait until Germany introduces a general speed limit!
Seriously though, I think we will see much more protests like that one. And farmers have sinply the tools to protest like that.
Seriously though, I think we will see much more protests like that one. And farmers have sinply the tools to protest like that.
Yeah, that's an important part of it. Like the truckers here in Ottawa back in February. Try blocking distribution centres of major supermarket chains if you're an association of nurses and don't have access to those tractors.
Isn't the only work around slaughtering a huge percentage of Dutch dairy herds?
i don't know if this is indeed the case, but if that's being used as a reason not to do it, it's very stupid - every dairy animal gets slaughtered, females at 6 years and males at a few months. so this would just be speeding up the inevitable.
point all the windmills at belgium and blow the nitrogen until it’s their problem.
Yes, but it would be a massive financial hit for dairy farmers who are already operating in a very difficult market on tiny margins, effectively culling productive herds, hence much of the protest and denial I expect.
Not bad
if there's no serious climate action being taken by the eu and the us then you may as well support the dairy farmers. as part of a broader attempt to seriously prevent a 2 degree rise most people would support the state. in isolation though most people will support the farmers or the truckers or whichever group is next. and there's just no real evidence that the necessary action is being taken. there are great documents with excellent proposals and plans but a distinct lack of action. europe is better than the us but in each corporate profiteering is preventing any serious change.
if there isn't a gnd implemented in both the us and eu in the next five years, then the world is basically fecked. china is moving in the renewable direction and you'd expect them to get there. meanwhile i'm waiting on biden's gnd two years after his election. this fecking around is inexcusable.
This seems unlikely. Excess nitrogen almost always comes from fertiliser, yes obviously cow shit contains it but perhaps they should go back to using that as fertiliser rather than producing it chemically at great cost to the planet.
So... dexit, hexit or nexit?
I can't see this ending well. If you decide that 1/3 of your farmers have to stop farming then they are not going to agree with you or go easily.
Apparently the main source of nitrogen that’s an issue here is in cow/pig piss/shit. It’s made worse because they do such intensive farming, which involves very high protein feeds. High protein food = high ammonia piss.
If these measures force a shift away from this method if farming then it’s all good, if you ask me.
Normally I would say you are right, but the Netherlands is a special case. The main contributors are power plants, traffic and livestock with livestock being the biggest. This is from a Science article (science being the publication not just the subject!)
Full article is here: https://www.science.org/content/art...can also harm,from livestock urine and manure.
Didn't the authorities mess up some of the calculations? I thought I had read that their statistical modelling wasn't accurate at all. Can see why the farming industry would push back if true.
Yes, have to agree. If it's really true that they have so many animals then they should ban ammonium based fertilisers and use the animals to do the work. Sounds like they should also feed them less horrible shit and give them more room too.
I couldn't believe it when I heard they're the 2nd biggest exporter of agriculture based foods in the world. Insane for a country of their size and density but I guess it's so flat that pretty much every piece of land must be taken up by farmers. Seems to be incredibly efficient, too.
All the result of 12 years of Mark Rutte and his bunch of smirking VVD cnuts. The nitrogen situation has been known since the 70s, but we've never taken any real measures. Now it's 5 to 12 (I know that's not an English saying, but it's a thread about the Netherlands so feck off) and now harsh measures have to be taken.
As is the case everywhere else in the digital world, Dutch Twitter has a rather significant conspiracy loon contingent who are working day and night to rile up the uninfomred masses screaming that it's communism, a plot bij the WEF and a sinister strategy to replace our farmers with illegal immigrants (they say immigrants, but they really mean brown people). It's very sad that farmers have to give up their life's work, but they will be compensated and job industries dissappear all the time.
It's a sad fecking time to be alive though to be honest, as soon as you turn off the internet the unrest is much smaller than it seems online.
Did I mention we should stop voting for the fecking VVD? STOP VOTING FOR THE FECKING VVD
As is the case everywhere else in the digital world, Dutch Twitter has a rather significant conspiracy loon contingent who are working day and night to rile up the uninfomred masses screaming that it's communism, a plot bij the WEF and a sinister strategy to replace our farmers with illegal immigrants (they say immigrants, but they really mean brown people). It's very sad that farmers have to give up their life's work, but they will be compensated and job industries dissappear all the time.
It's a sad fecking time to be alive though to be honest, as soon as you turn off the internet the unrest is much smaller than it seems online.
Did I mention we should stop voting for the fecking VVD? STOP VOTING FOR THE FECKING VVD
The new nitrogen measures are a problem for all of Europe, not just The Netherlands and Belgium. It's just that they affect all of our country, not just a small part of it like e.g. Germany because we have so many farmers. The Netherlands and Belgium are 1 and 2 in Europe for nitrogen emission per hectare of land. And the farmers (at least in Belgium, don't know about the Dutch) have a very strong lobbyist and political presence as well so definitely a group you have to take into account nationwide.
The problem is also that they're polluting the local land, so even if other countries fail to comply to measures, this nitrogen problem is also a local one. There's just a very large amount of misinformation being spread saying that the calculations are off or even worse, that the whole nitrogen crisis doesn't exist and is a leftist hoax to subdue us and turn us into a communist social credit state or whatever the feck these loons say.
Yeah, that's what a lot of it comes down to: but out farmers and then take that farm's license off the market. It's the only way, given the huge gains required to meet the nitrogen targets
And yes, that causes the opposition, but a lot of farmers actually aren't against being bought out. Even one of the most militant leaders admitted that he can be bought for the right price. The protests are rather triggered by the messaging, populism, and various conspiracy theories. If only the government had handled this MUCH better, we wouldn't be here. (I'm definitely joining @KirkDuyt in his 'appreciation' for Rutte and the VVD.)
No, the measurements are good. This is actually a key conspiracy theory - or a key misconception if you feel generous. (But I'll call it a conspiracy theory since it's been debunked but continues to be believed in. One would also have to assume the RIVM and the government have ulterior motives in adhering to a method that's known to be wrong.)
Do you read Dutch? Based on a (very) quick search this page seems to provide a good summary of the situation:
https://www.aanpakstikstof.nl/het-stikstofprobleem/meten-en-berekenen
The key bit is the section called 'Adviescollege Meten en Berekenen Stikstof', where it is explained that the measurement method was independently evaluated on 2020, was already found to be satisfactory to good then, and was subsequently further improved based on recommendations provided.
That's the frustrating part. People opposed to the measures, like Caroline van der Plas from BBB (how they are on 12 zetels in the polls is one of the world's great mysteries) have adopted the "just asking questions" trick of saying, Meh, I don't know, these calculations don't feel right, I just don't really trust them, but can't really say why. On a side note, Caroline entered het Binnenhof on a tractor the first time she came even though she had never previously driven one. The blatant populism of this is just so mind shatteringly offensive to me.
Maarten van Rossem has a great bit of explanation in his podcast; do you know Maarten @Cheimoon? I'm a huge fan of his, even if he looks like Jabba the Hutts very grumpy and creepy uncle.
Yeah, and the bigger issue is how the loonie populism is rallying around farmers. The FVD of Baudet are elitist assholes who probably wouldn't want to be seen with a farmer if their lives depended on it, but are now somehow their champions in parliament (alongside the BBB). You can't make it up. Opponents to covid measures are getting in on things as well.
It's laughable, but unfortunately also turning into a kind of mass movement that's not funny at all. I've been reading the FVD is kinda creating an utterly deluded little parallel society of Baudet believers. You can kinda see it happening in this sort of situation and it just doesn't seem good at all for society as a whole.
Yeah, of course! Been around since forever now.
Hilarious character. I don't know his podcast, but I suppose it's the same trenchant cynicism as usual?It's a healthy mix of old man yells at cloud and brilliant insight into global politics, history and other stuff.Yeah, of course! Been around since forever now.
And the good part is that he knows about the old man part.
I'm trying to figure out when he became known again. I think his specialization is in US history, and he was called in a lot as an expert opinion during some major event - maybe post-9/11? And then he built up a popularity from there and became this public figure he is now.
He was shunned from Dutch television after saying very clearly that 9/11 wasn't the start of some sort of global war and an orchestrated effort by several countries, while everyone on TV was sure it was world war 3 and the entire middle east was behind it.And the good part is that he knows about the old man part.
I'm trying to figure out when he became known again. I think his specialization is in US history, and he was called in a lot as an expert opinion during some major event - maybe post-9/11? And then he built up a popularity from there and became this public figure he is now.
He's been actually most famous for his work on De Slimste Mens game show and an excellent TV show with his brother and sister where they visit cultural places and moan excessively about everything. Sadly his sister died recently sort of suddenly.
Its very hard to take the Dutch govt or the EU seriously as I can see tons and tons of poisonous smoke billowing out from Tata Steel 24hrs a day.
I know - my mum loves those and tells me about them!
(Yep, you've landed in that category now.)
The good old EU neo-liberal Milton Friedman mindset. Destroy your own manufacturing/ farming sector. Replace it with service industries. Let the food be imported from Asia and South America tariff free. Let them pollute their environment while we get food for really low prices.
According to Google, Agriculture accounts for 1.5% of the Netherlands's GDP and employs 2% of their workforce.
They make a lot of noise for being a tiny minority. I have to guess that these landowners, also own the mass media and other big businesses, so they can amplify their warcry.
They make a lot of noise for being a tiny minority. I have to guess that these landowners, also own the mass media and other big businesses, so they can amplify their warcry.
Its about nitrogen immissions not anything else. The building sector is under fire too yet we have no spare houses.
They have two things working for them to make that noise: they traditionally have a very strong lobby in two of the bigger political parties (CDA and VVD), giving them an outsized voice in The Hague. Plus they've got their tractors and are happy to drive them anywhere, meaning they can organize highly impactful and visible protests with relatively little effort.
They currently also have fairly strong popular support, that helps as well in terms of police being hesitant to stop their protests too soon and politicians getting too angry at things. They don't 'own' mass media or other big business though, the above is enough.
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