Cleverley and Anderson? Come on. Our midfield was mediocre for years. He just knew how to set them up to perform for the team and pretty much just minimized the impact of the CM's since they were so limited.
What would SAF do with this team?
- Thread starter manunited1919
- Start date
Because we played attacking football. If we were as cautious as this team we’d have conceded less. Carrick and Scholes was a better pair than any we put out now. Even Giggs at that age would be a better starter than most of what we have now.
We’ve one player in the squad who’s won anything of note. And most people would argue he’s one of our biggest problems.
They played together for about 4 games. That wasn’t our midfield in 2012/13.
Scholes was completely finished in 2012-2013. He barely even played.
Giggs was pretty much finished too.
He was a 30 goal a season striker. He was just perennially injured.
I disagree on the defence. Evra was still a better player than fat boy, Rio was still better than anything we have now and we had Vidic half the season.
Carrick was a much better player than anything we have in midfield now. Bruno is more of an attacker. Fred and McTominay don’t start ahead of Carrick or a 37 year old Scholes.
Hernandez was what you want a third choice striker to be. A player who can score goals off the bench. It would be nice to have that now. Surely I don’t have to argue that Rooney and Van Persie we’re better strikers than what we have now? Rooney has started to decline, no doubt. Still had 24 goal contributions in 27 games to Martial’s 24 in 32 league games.
Missed about 3 months injured but involved pretty regularly before then. Still a better midfielder than McTominay is now for me. That’s possibly me being kind to Scholes but even if I’m wrong, Carrick was still head and shoulders above anything we have in midfield now.
Not sure if he'd start over McTominay to be honest(but I don't think McTominay should be a starter either). I'm of course talking about Scholes purely from that season.
I conceded the Carrick point. He'd definitely start for us and would improve us a lot.
I mean, the greatest manager of all time replacing an average one? How wonderful would that be!?
What would he do? Firstly he'd probably not end up with a midfield of Fred, Matic and Mctominay. I imagine were talking about peak SAF here. He'd chuck Pogba out. He'd have fullbacks who can attack. He'd embrace Bruno.
And most importantly, he'd get us playing front foot attacking football not this nonsense that Mourinho and Ole love so much. Barring the odd occasion SAF didn't allow Manchester United to play negative football. We were famous for how we played - aggressive, fast, entertaining football. Gosh, I miss the great man. The soul of this football club sadly left with him.
Sigh.
What would he do? Firstly he'd probably not end up with a midfield of Fred, Matic and Mctominay. I imagine were talking about peak SAF here. He'd chuck Pogba out. He'd have fullbacks who can attack. He'd embrace Bruno.
And most importantly, he'd get us playing front foot attacking football not this nonsense that Mourinho and Ole love so much. Barring the odd occasion SAF didn't allow Manchester United to play negative football. We were famous for how we played - aggressive, fast, entertaining football. Gosh, I miss the great man. The soul of this football club sadly left with him.
Sigh.
Not sure about with this team but he would fairly quickly given a few players to add.
The credit for RVP's progress from winger to world-class striker is solely Wenger's credit to claim, let's make no illusions about that. He was already at that level prior to joining us.
It’s really hard to judge that 12-13 side midfield
in hindsight, because Carrick played probably his best individual season then, which overall made that nonexistent midfield more effective than our current one, despite the talents we have now at our disposal.
The 43 goals conceded is heavily skewed by conceding 5 against West Brom in the last match day, plus we won the league with 6 games to spare. I would easily, man for man, take the defence we had that season over our current one.
Attack wise there’s no comparison, wingers were pretty shit but between RvP, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck they scored more than 70 goals, and as ineffective as they were Valencia/Young back then were still marginally better than Lingard/Mata/James.
in hindsight, because Carrick played probably his best individual season then, which overall made that nonexistent midfield more effective than our current one, despite the talents we have now at our disposal.
The 43 goals conceded is heavily skewed by conceding 5 against West Brom in the last match day, plus we won the league with 6 games to spare. I would easily, man for man, take the defence we had that season over our current one.
Attack wise there’s no comparison, wingers were pretty shit but between RvP, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck they scored more than 70 goals, and as ineffective as they were Valencia/Young back then were still marginally better than Lingard/Mata/James.
Depends on which version of Fergie (pre-2000s total attacking risk taking gambler, mid 2000s balance tactical all rounder, circa 2010s defensive tactical specialist). The different versions happened honestly because of (a) Fergie's motivations (to continue managing or retire, notice how our teams usually drop in performances in the early 2000s, then football getting worse *entertainment wise* 2010s) and (b) his quick impressive adaptations to the generational changes in football.
I'll take the 2nd version (mid 2000s).
1. Improve coaching/trainings.
Firstly he'll bring in a good coach, 2nd assistant to be in charge of the trainings and the whole tactical side of it with his tactical input too of course.
Seriously though we're so rubbish in this aspects, and Ole made no improvements at all to it.. other than the GK coaches due to consequences which we're finally seeing improvements but that may have to do more with player management specifically gk competitions. Silly loyalty. Fergie is also loyal to his staffs, but not the crucial 2nd assistant manager whom he kept on refreshing with newer ones.
2. He'll likely bring in a real #9 first.
This for him is his most important position and normally the first one he "fill-in". All out bid for Kane I assume or convince Haaland to join in? If he couldn't, then he'll likely play Martial there. Yes, and constantly rotate with Greenwood, Cavani etc every game until Martial hit the purple patch again, otherwise constant rotation.
3. Managing the players & Tactics
James => super sub and energy bunny, mini Kanchelskis! won't have problems playing RW.
McT => McTominator every game.
Fred => Fred the Red!
De Gea => back to God mode!
Mag + Lind => 2nd version of Bruce and Pallister
Dean => will play him in CL group stage vs the shit teams with no fear.
Romero => will let him go (sold or loan) easily considering his professionalism and good performances as 2nd keeper over the years, none of this shitty prison-ing.
Greenwood => monster impact subs across all three positions CF, RW and LW
Mata => playing as 2nd choice CAM
Rashford => right wing god
1. 433 or 4123, with one holding most likely be VDB/Fred or captain.
2. Replacing AWB with maybe James, TFM, Axel or Bailly (yes their attacking abilities or TFM's speed are really good)
3. 4114 at the last dying minutes.
c. Defensive tactics eg. in Europe or vs top teams?
1. Possibly putting Fred/VDB on the left wing.
2. Highly doubt he'll play 5 defenders system, so it'll be 4231.
3. Shaw instead of Telles is possible.
Rashford, Bruno and McTom will always be in the starting 11, James, VDB, Mata and Fred will be regulars, TFM will play more games, as does Axel being tried out even at LB. Rashford will probably play more as Right Winger to balance our right side, with AWB already providing the defense solidity at the back.
Oddly I can see Fergie dropping Martial to a regular status and Pogba as bench-warmers. And even dropping Shaw..? He wants his FBs to attack, but may be lenient with AWB cause he's young and monster in defense, confident he can improve AWB's attacking abilities. Could also see Fergie loving Rojo, he love mad bastards. Bailly I assume will play more at RB, just my guts telling me. Contrary to popular beliefs, I think he'll get fed up with Jones injuries and kick him out of the team. We're talking about Fergie in his prime here yeah. I honestly don't think he'll be bringing in Cavani nor Ighalo, but if he does, for sure he'll turn them into good 2nd choice #9s.
4. Captain conundrum?
It's very unlikely he'll turn Mag into captain straightaway in his first season. But then who knows - at that time, the choices are very poor (Maguire, De Gea, McTominay, Mata, Matic and Rashford). But remember how at that time McT is performing like crazy, McTominator form basically, and we know how fond Fergie is with McT, so it's highly likely he'll be naming McT as the club captain officially. Long term.
5. A lot of Rotations.
Seriously, he'll do a lot so you won't see our best 11 playing every games.
Our CBs, keeper, captain and real #9 (if we got one) will almost always play every games, bar injuries and the cup games/shit teams in CL.
The rest will be rotated around always, but constantly playing - that's how he got all his squad players to be useful not shit, and get back into best forms quickly. It keeps everyone on their toes, improve squad Morale with enough games and squad competitions, etc.
Just speculation/imagination IMO, based from the little information I know about Alex Ferguson, following this man's great journey.
So definitely I'll be getting many wrongs there.
I'll take the 2nd version (mid 2000s).
1. Improve coaching/trainings.
Firstly he'll bring in a good coach, 2nd assistant to be in charge of the trainings and the whole tactical side of it with his tactical input too of course.
Seriously though we're so rubbish in this aspects, and Ole made no improvements at all to it.. other than the GK coaches due to consequences which we're finally seeing improvements but that may have to do more with player management specifically gk competitions. Silly loyalty. Fergie is also loyal to his staffs, but not the crucial 2nd assistant manager whom he kept on refreshing with newer ones.
2. He'll likely bring in a real #9 first.
This for him is his most important position and normally the first one he "fill-in". All out bid for Kane I assume or convince Haaland to join in? If he couldn't, then he'll likely play Martial there. Yes, and constantly rotate with Greenwood, Cavani etc every game until Martial hit the purple patch again, otherwise constant rotation.
3. Managing the players & Tactics
James => super sub and energy bunny, mini Kanchelskis! won't have problems playing RW.
McT => McTominator every game.
Fred => Fred the Red!
De Gea => back to God mode!
Mag + Lind => 2nd version of Bruce and Pallister
Dean => will play him in CL group stage vs the shit teams with no fear.
Romero => will let him go (sold or loan) easily considering his professionalism and good performances as 2nd keeper over the years, none of this shitty prison-ing.
Greenwood => monster impact subs across all three positions CF, RW and LW
Mata => playing as 2nd choice CAM
Rashford => right wing god
a. Default tactics? 4231
#9
Martial/James -- Bruno -- Rashford
VDB/Fred -- McT(c)
Telles -- Maguire -- Lindelof -- AWB
De Gea
Subs: Greenwood, Mata
Squad: Pogba, Matic, Shaw, Williams, TFM, Axel, Bailly, Rojo, Dean
b. Total attacking tactics? when we're going all out.#9
Martial/James -- Bruno -- Rashford
VDB/Fred -- McT(c)
Telles -- Maguire -- Lindelof -- AWB
De Gea
Subs: Greenwood, Mata
Squad: Pogba, Matic, Shaw, Williams, TFM, Axel, Bailly, Rojo, Dean
1. 433 or 4123, with one holding most likely be VDB/Fred or captain.
2. Replacing AWB with maybe James, TFM, Axel or Bailly (yes their attacking abilities or TFM's speed are really good)
3. 4114 at the last dying minutes.
c. Defensive tactics eg. in Europe or vs top teams?
1. Possibly putting Fred/VDB on the left wing.
2. Highly doubt he'll play 5 defenders system, so it'll be 4231.
3. Shaw instead of Telles is possible.
Rashford, Bruno and McTom will always be in the starting 11, James, VDB, Mata and Fred will be regulars, TFM will play more games, as does Axel being tried out even at LB. Rashford will probably play more as Right Winger to balance our right side, with AWB already providing the defense solidity at the back.
Oddly I can see Fergie dropping Martial to a regular status and Pogba as bench-warmers. And even dropping Shaw..? He wants his FBs to attack, but may be lenient with AWB cause he's young and monster in defense, confident he can improve AWB's attacking abilities. Could also see Fergie loving Rojo, he love mad bastards. Bailly I assume will play more at RB, just my guts telling me. Contrary to popular beliefs, I think he'll get fed up with Jones injuries and kick him out of the team. We're talking about Fergie in his prime here yeah. I honestly don't think he'll be bringing in Cavani nor Ighalo, but if he does, for sure he'll turn them into good 2nd choice #9s.
4. Captain conundrum?
It's very unlikely he'll turn Mag into captain straightaway in his first season. But then who knows - at that time, the choices are very poor (Maguire, De Gea, McTominay, Mata, Matic and Rashford). But remember how at that time McT is performing like crazy, McTominator form basically, and we know how fond Fergie is with McT, so it's highly likely he'll be naming McT as the club captain officially. Long term.
5. A lot of Rotations.
Seriously, he'll do a lot so you won't see our best 11 playing every games.
Our CBs, keeper, captain and real #9 (if we got one) will almost always play every games, bar injuries and the cup games/shit teams in CL.
The rest will be rotated around always, but constantly playing - that's how he got all his squad players to be useful not shit, and get back into best forms quickly. It keeps everyone on their toes, improve squad Morale with enough games and squad competitions, etc.
Just speculation/imagination IMO, based from the little information I know about Alex Ferguson, following this man's great journey.
So definitely I'll be getting many wrongs there.
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I think the main difference is that the league is a lot tougher now than it was in 2013. All teams that won the Premier League between 2011 and 2017 would have struggled to compete for the title in these past 3 years imo.
SAF would be challenging for the league title with this team, he did with players like Welbeck, Cleverley playing regularly, semi retired Rio, Vidic, Evra too.
Fergie would probably sell a few of these overpaid cnuts like Pogba.
He’d also sign some wingers and go back to a 442. And he’d win the league.
He’d also sign some wingers and go back to a 442. And he’d win the league.
With this squad:
1. Fergie would reach the quarters and semis of the CL regularly.
2. In the PL, he would win two titles in a row and miss out on a third by 1 or 2 points or by GD.
3. Also in the PL, he would get under both Pep's and Klopp's skin (Klopp got rattled by Keane in a studio. Imagine SAF working on him over the length of a season
). They would have the mother of all meltdowns and feck off to be each other's assitants at PSG.
4. In gameplay, McT, AWB, and Shaw would never make more than 3 sideways passes in a game in the oppposition's half. Pogba would either be one of the best midfielders in the world or sold.
Of all these things, it's point 3 that makes me really wish that he was still the manager at United.
1. Fergie would reach the quarters and semis of the CL regularly.
2. In the PL, he would win two titles in a row and miss out on a third by 1 or 2 points or by GD.
3. Also in the PL, he would get under both Pep's and Klopp's skin (Klopp got rattled by Keane in a studio. Imagine SAF working on him over the length of a season
). They would have the mother of all meltdowns and feck off to be each other's assitants at PSG.4. In gameplay, McT, AWB, and Shaw would never make more than 3 sideways passes in a game in the oppposition's half. Pogba would either be one of the best midfielders in the world or sold.
Of all these things, it's point 3 that makes me really wish that he was still the manager at United.
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Firstly he would never have two defensive fullbacks in Shaw and AWB!
SAF would never take our best defender out of our starting 11. You win games with your best players, not without them. He also wouldn't play Rashford as a winger. He would be a striker. We would also have a left footer on the left wing and a right footer on the right. They might alternate through out the game but for the most part, our wingers jobs would be to provide assists first and goals second, not the other way around.
---------------------------------------------De Gea-----------------------------------------
AWB-------------------Smalling*---------------------Maguire------------Shaw
Bruno----------------McTominay---------Fred-------------------------Telles
-----------------------Martial------------------------Rashford---------------------
Subs: Henderson, Tuanzebe, Lindelof, Matic, Greenwood, VdB, Cavani
*Smalling never would have left the team and Pogba never would have been signed. It would actually be interesting to see what other players we would have brought in with that Pogba money if SAF was still here. I've put Telles at LW because he plays like a classic winger and is left footed. I could also see Bruno playing on the right in SAF's system. It would be interesting to see who we would actually have here if SAF didn't retire...
Absolutely. Neither would he have two CMs who offer feck all going forward. Yes, SAF had his periods of playing poor players but A) he still won stiff and B) in a career that long and decorated, standards drop here and there. But in general our team was littered with players with attacking qualities.
This thread is actually depressing as all the qualities we had under him are in the bin. Other than youth I guess.
But there is something else: VAR Penalties.
Van Persie we have Cavani & Martial
Rooney we have Fernandez & Rashford
Hernandez we have Greenwood
The first thing he would do is boot out that clown Pogba for a second time
The one and only SAF would challenge for the title for sure.
our Midfield was diabolical most of the timeGK: He'd probably start thinking of replacing DDG by now and use the money elsewhere
RB: Dalot would be brought back and he'll be properly coached, same with AWB. AWB will cover the Wes Brown as right back role
CB: Lindelof and Maguire won't last for long. Sir Alex learnt his lesson about having 2 slow CBs long ago. He'll probably play Maguire and Tuanzebe then he'll add another CB
LB: Telles would play regularly. Shaw will play when Dalot plays
DM: Sir Alex hated anchor men so Matic would be a goner. The guy would tolerate one headless chicken in midfield (Phil, Cleverley, Butt) with preference given to the Scot homegrown talent, so Fred would be a goner as well. We'll sign a DM who offers more to his game then running and tackling
MC: VDB would be a first teamer alongside Bruno. Mejbri would be promoted, Pogba will be kicked out. United would add a midfielder on the cheap, probably someone like Riqui Puig who will accept the bench.
RW: Sir Alex would sign Adama Traore. He's the sort of powerhouse/creative winger he likes. James will remain as cover. Mata, Lingard and co would be sold.
LW: Rashford and Martial
STK: Sir Alex would play Cavani with Greenwood as cover/competitor.
RB: Dalot would be brought back and he'll be properly coached, same with AWB. AWB will cover the Wes Brown as right back role
CB: Lindelof and Maguire won't last for long. Sir Alex learnt his lesson about having 2 slow CBs long ago. He'll probably play Maguire and Tuanzebe then he'll add another CB
LB: Telles would play regularly. Shaw will play when Dalot plays
DM: Sir Alex hated anchor men so Matic would be a goner. The guy would tolerate one headless chicken in midfield (Phil, Cleverley, Butt) with preference given to the Scot homegrown talent, so Fred would be a goner as well. We'll sign a DM who offers more to his game then running and tackling
MC: VDB would be a first teamer alongside Bruno. Mejbri would be promoted, Pogba will be kicked out. United would add a midfielder on the cheap, probably someone like Riqui Puig who will accept the bench.
RW: Sir Alex would sign Adama Traore. He's the sort of powerhouse/creative winger he likes. James will remain as cover. Mata, Lingard and co would be sold.
LW: Rashford and Martial
STK: Sir Alex would play Cavani with Greenwood as cover/competitor.
I like all of your suggestions, but perhaps SAF would play Lindeloff / Tuanzebe instead of Maguire / Tuanzebe. Maguire just seems the slower one, and he doesn’t seem as disciplined as Lindelof. Not much between them though.
My last post on this topic as it’s getting repetitive. Again, SAF was a good tactician. Everyone knows how many different tasks he has had. He still was very much involved hands-on. His involvement in coaching and certain other areas got less in his last few years obviously. But this is to be expected. Or do you think the likes of Klopp and Guardiola will have the same involvement in everything when they are 66-71 years old?
What was said about Queiroz was also said about McClaren - great innovative assistant, etc. and we were very successful with him between 1999 and 2001, too.
Football has of course continually been changing. But not only by Benitez or Mourinho. Wenger was the first one who brought changes. Then Mourinho / Chelsea came, then City.
SAF never failed to adapt and kept winning major trophies.
Finally, one main reason SAF liked different assistants was to bring freshness and new ideas to the club. Usually at most other clubs a manager stays for a few years so the new manager will automatically bring changes.
But if you have a long term manager and long term CEOs then the changes need to be brought in by the assistant/coaching staff.
SAF being continuously successful with so many different assistants actually confirmes that it was always his game plan and tactics, which of course the assistants helped implementing. There are exceptions for example the Barca games in 2008, where SAF accepted a different approach suggested by Queiroz (who by the way apart from 1 season was also at United when we got beaten in the CL between 2003-2007 - including one group stage exit).
Last but not least, at least both McClaren and Queiroz couldn’t even buy any kind of attacking play, let alone scoring so many goals regularly. That was all SAF. McClaren and Queiroz however brought some structure and defensive shape to the team (but again, funny how Queiroz could manage one knockout win against Barca when our team and defence including goal keeper were at their best, but failed to get us past Madrid and Milan in 2003, 2005 and 2007 as well as out of the group in 2005/06). I am not only blaming him for these defeats but I feel if he gets so much credit mainly due to the Barca games then he should also be questioned when we failed with him as assistant.
Anyway I am not going to post again on this topic as everything has been said by now.
Yes
He’d boot Pogba out like he did Ruud and Veron because he is not cohesive to the unit
Winning
He made Tom Cleverley and Phil Jones in midfield work, I’d bet on him making Pogba work as well.
I doubt Sir Alex would waste 80m on Maguire. However since he's there, then I think that the old man would play him
a- the club spent 80m on him. He'll try and make it work
b- Maguire is at least decent in air and is physically strong
What Sir Alex would probably do is to sell Lindelof quickly to make money out of it. He'd buy a fast CB (Konate? Upamecano?), he'll promote Tuanzebe and Mengi and I can see him add Evans on the cheap.
I wouldn’t. They were hardworking and surrounded by a balanced team otherwise.
Pogba is a square , trying slowly, pondering how to fit in that around hole. He’s a luxury on top that’s messing the unit equation
He’d recognise that and sign one.
Does it have more talent? They perhaps have more potential but very few of them have done it consistently yet. That team in 2013 was still very good and had managed 89 points in two successive seasons.
Granted 3 of the back 4 were getting on a bit but was that team as bad as everyone made out?
We were also close to knocking Madrid out of the Champions League before the Nani red card.
In 2013/2014, Fergie or even Mourinho would have taken that side to at least challenge for the title.
With what we had available yesterday, probably something like
------------------de gea
Williams-tuanzebe-Maguire-shaw
--------‐mctominay--matic
Vdb--fernandes--rashford
-------------------cavani
With a full strength side though I think the only changes would have been rashford on the right wing, martial on the left wing, telles at left back, vdb next to matic and fergie likely would not have loaned dalot out and been used as his first choice right back as he also loved Rafael despite his defensive short comings.
------------------de gea
Williams-tuanzebe-Maguire-shaw
--------‐mctominay--matic
Vdb--fernandes--rashford
-------------------cavani
With a full strength side though I think the only changes would have been rashford on the right wing, martial on the left wing, telles at left back, vdb next to matic and fergie likely would not have loaned dalot out and been used as his first choice right back as he also loved Rafael despite his defensive short comings.
We had a team of win at all cost characters under SAF. This lot couldn't care less. Challenge for the title, you're having a laugh.
Djemba x2 and Kleberson?
Sir Alex always had exceptional CMs in them. As time went he reduced the work rate (ex Keane and Ince) in favour of more creativity. Workrate in CM became something a donkey can do (ex Cleverley) in specific times to cover for a lack (an ageing Giggs/Scholes). There's no way Sir Alex would play with a midfield made up of Fred and McT.