Eh I'm just trying to make the point that different games play out differently. I actually don't have a great idea of what kind of a team Roma are right now or what to expect from them on Thursday.Are we talking about the same Roma here?
The post was going so well as well
What's wrong with the current format of the Champions League?
- Thread starter The Corinthian
- Start date
Yuh, Roma are basically Italian Burnley so we won’t be getting an open and attacking game sadly. Was so desperate for Ajax to get through.
Maybe they can come with a double elimination tournament???
I'm quite certain it's been mentioned here before but I genuinely want to see the return of the second group stage of the early 2000s. It was the closest we ever got to a legitimate European super league.
I have to agree with this at face value.
However, The Champions league should be exclusive to League winners of the highest ranked countries at the qualifying time.
At least you would have the top 8, 12, 16 teams in Europe playing each other and the Champions league would be won by the current champions of whoever won their domestic league. Just like the European cup was! And you could use the other formats for:-
The Europa league (UEFA Cup) could then pick up the 2,3,4th (Or more?) placed finishing teams and bring back the ECWC for the domestic cup winners.
"Oh wait!! This is what it used to be like before it became a corporate money making cash cow!!!!!
Manchester City confirmed they have "formally enacted the procedures to withdraw" from the Super League.
Liverpool said their involvement in the proposed breakaway league "has been discontinued".
Manchester United said they had "listened carefully to the reaction from our fans, the UK government and other key stakeholders" in making their decision to not take part.
Arsenal apologised in an open letter to their fans and said they had "made a mistake", adding they were withdrawing after listening to them and the "wider football community".
Tottenham chairman Daniel Levy said the club regretted the "anxiety and upset" caused by the proposal.
Chelsea confirmed they have "begun the formal procedures for withdrawal from the group" that they only joined "late last week".
"Football is nothing without the fans"
"We can't wait to welcome you back to Old Trafford"
You know what, More teams deserve to be in the champions league than this lot. And I am a United fan!
Make the first round a knockout stage - weed out the smaller sides and then go into a second round group stage with less dead rubbers.
Play them every year for a few seasons and they'll become rivals too
Just like arsenal did
It was absolutely awful.
It's too big. There are too many poor teams in it.
Though some might not want to admit it, they'd rather see Barcelona in the competition, even if they finish 2nd or 3rd in La Liga, than the champions of Estonia. The problem is people can't admit that so the starting point to any discussion is the pretence of 'yes, I'd want to see the champions of Estonia and Denmark in it rather than the team that finishes third in Spain' - but that's a lie, nobody thinks that.
We need to be honest about what we want the competition to look like as 'Champions only' will by virtue of where TV money will go and how much interest there is in such a competition, will kill it off as quick as any Super League would have. Pretending otherwise because you think 'Champions only' makes you look virtuous and altruistic does nobody any favours.
Though some might not want to admit it, they'd rather see Barcelona in the competition, even if they finish 2nd or 3rd in La Liga, than the champions of Estonia. The problem is people can't admit that so the starting point to any discussion is the pretence of 'yes, I'd want to see the champions of Estonia and Denmark in it rather than the team that finishes third in Spain' - but that's a lie, nobody thinks that.
We need to be honest about what we want the competition to look like as 'Champions only' will by virtue of where TV money will go and how much interest there is in such a competition, will kill it off as quick as any Super League would have. Pretending otherwise because you think 'Champions only' makes you look virtuous and altruistic does nobody any favours.
It’s pretty dull up till Xmas.
That is the difficult part. Though I wouldn't include all those clubs in the same bracket. You'd need to have some kind of merit based qualification. Maybe two divisions or more or some other structure enabling other clubs to join in.
Appreciate not all European clubs would be happy.
Maybe some form of limited league structure to ensure only the best teams from the best leagues are involved and stop all those pointless clubs sneaking in.
This totally depends on perspective. Im sure Leicester fans absolutely love watching their team no matter what part of the CL they are playing in. Just seeing their team in the competition against Europe's best teams would be great for them.
The CL is shite.
More qualifiers and 2 leagues so the best teams play each other more often.
More qualifiers and 2 leagues so the best teams play each other more often.
There's just 2 basic things wrong:
1. Competitive match ups
Nobody wants to see games of Club Brugge playing CSKA Moscow, or Dynamo Kiev playing Ferecvaros. More often than not, these teams get hammered by the likes of Barca, Bayern, etc. 95% of the time, they teams are only there to fill up the numbers because UEFA wants an all inclusive and diverse competition - a competition not entirely based on quality. On the other hand, because of the limitations - good/competitive teams miss out on the CL every year. Just look at what will happen this season, At least 2 among Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, and Arsenal will not be playing in the CL next season. Most probably Dortmund as well.
Now, if a game were to take place among Chelsea vs Barcelona or Bayern vs Midtjylland - it is quite obvious which match would be more interesting and more entertaining to watch. But unfortunately, the former cannot take place next season. This is perhaps the biggest problem currently and why all this ESL fiasco happened.
2. Financial
In line with my first point, CL offers a strong financial package for every qualifying team. Once again, there are very small clubs (ability and revenue wise) which get a pretty big amount. Whereas, some of the other clubs do not get anything at all (E.g. Chelsea next season, United 2 seasons earlier). This is despite the big clubs earning a fair share of revenue globally and also being a stronger team on paper. These clubs probably feel hard done by because of the limitations of qualification for the CL.
1. Competitive match ups
Nobody wants to see games of Club Brugge playing CSKA Moscow, or Dynamo Kiev playing Ferecvaros. More often than not, these teams get hammered by the likes of Barca, Bayern, etc. 95% of the time, they teams are only there to fill up the numbers because UEFA wants an all inclusive and diverse competition - a competition not entirely based on quality. On the other hand, because of the limitations - good/competitive teams miss out on the CL every year. Just look at what will happen this season, At least 2 among Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, and Arsenal will not be playing in the CL next season. Most probably Dortmund as well.
Now, if a game were to take place among Chelsea vs Barcelona or Bayern vs Midtjylland - it is quite obvious which match would be more interesting and more entertaining to watch. But unfortunately, the former cannot take place next season. This is perhaps the biggest problem currently and why all this ESL fiasco happened.
2. Financial
In line with my first point, CL offers a strong financial package for every qualifying team. Once again, there are very small clubs (ability and revenue wise) which get a pretty big amount. Whereas, some of the other clubs do not get anything at all (E.g. Chelsea next season, United 2 seasons earlier). This is despite the big clubs earning a fair share of revenue globally and also being a stronger team on paper. These clubs probably feel hard done by because of the limitations of qualification for the CL.
It's totally baffling to me that anyone wants the Champions League to only have the champions of their respective leagues after we've had a decade in which most major leagues have been completely dominated by a single club.
All it would lead to is the PSGification of any league that doesn't have a competitive team, since it would immediately become the obvious place for billionaires to take over a random club and get all-but-guaranteed, perpetual CL spot.
All it would lead to is the PSGification of any league that doesn't have a competitive team, since it would immediately become the obvious place for billionaires to take over a random club and get all-but-guaranteed, perpetual CL spot.
Maybe two or more divisions with merit based qualification and promotion / relegation to give teams like Ajax, Porto, Celtic a decent chance.
The group stage of the current CL is a borefest and the new proposals will make it even worse.
There is a big problem in European football with such huge financial disparities between the top teams and the rest. Makes the leagues boring, even the premier league with City, though to a lesser extent.
Yeah that’s true if it’s a novelty for a club to be in it it will be exciting.
But if your relying on the novelty factor to keep the format interesting that isn’t a good sign.
This sounds like a very silly form of trickle-down economics to me. We want small leagues to be better, so let's invite a single club from that competition and give them access to lots of money.
How about instead, if we want to help other leagues, we just help the leagues.
There is, and your suggestion basically increases that gap.
Yeah that’s what I don’t understand about that argument. You’d have five good teams, max, and the rest would pretty much be fodder.
What about having a knockout style cup that goes into a league format in the second half of the season? So all the games have something riding on them, then theoretically you still end up with the strongest teams. Obviously you might end up with weaker teams, depending on the draw, but that comes down to whether the draw is seeded. Again, can you really moan about the quality of group games if you’re in favour seeding everything from the very first qualifying game.
Have we got a thread on the new CL proposals - I missed all that with this super league crap going on
The Champions League should keep the same format but be divided in two sides. One side has multiple clubs from major leagues. The other side has the champions of the domestic leagues of smaller countries. Then for the final we just have the club from the major league play with 10 men.
I’d love for the Champions League to cut the group stage and just be unseeded, two-legged double-elimination from the beginning. I’m not aware of any European sports using double elimination though. You could quite easily expand it to 64 teams by doing that too.
That said I also like the potential of a Swiss system too, so am intrigued by UEFA’s proposals.
Maybe they should switch the order round. Have a knockout competition with Real visiting Brugge, Malmo etc for a one leg tie. Then move into a league format, so the usual suspects in the quarter finals all play each other at least once. Top 2 have a final because knockout games are more interesting and fun in most cases.
I don't think the OP is clear. What is wrong with the current format - from whose perspective?
Fans
Not a lot - It has been refined and is a very good product. Sure some people would prefer it to be champions or less rubbish teams but in the whole, it probably strikes a fair balance.
The big clubs (ESL breakaways)
A lot! UEFA takes a good chunk of the revenue to feed their corrupt, people heavy bureaucracy. There are also 64 teams (lots of small ones) and those small clubs that are in the groups, get an equal split of revenue as bigger teams that are in the groups. Sound fair but the big clubs don't want to share the revenue. If Manchester United play a 3rd rate team, they share in the spoils even though 95% of the people watching, are watching to see Manchester United. So the bigger teams want to exclude the smaller teams and also remove UEFA - so the big teams get all of the revenue. They also then don't have to have a grouped TV deal so United games could be on MUTV on a PPV model or sold to Disney/Amazon etc - where the club gets full benefit of it's fan base. In the current scheme (like i've highlighted), the small club gets the benefit.
Fans
Not a lot - It has been refined and is a very good product. Sure some people would prefer it to be champions or less rubbish teams but in the whole, it probably strikes a fair balance.
The big clubs (ESL breakaways)
A lot! UEFA takes a good chunk of the revenue to feed their corrupt, people heavy bureaucracy. There are also 64 teams (lots of small ones) and those small clubs that are in the groups, get an equal split of revenue as bigger teams that are in the groups. Sound fair but the big clubs don't want to share the revenue. If Manchester United play a 3rd rate team, they share in the spoils even though 95% of the people watching, are watching to see Manchester United. So the bigger teams want to exclude the smaller teams and also remove UEFA - so the big teams get all of the revenue. They also then don't have to have a grouped TV deal so United games could be on MUTV on a PPV model or sold to Disney/Amazon etc - where the club gets full benefit of it's fan base. In the current scheme (like i've highlighted), the small club gets the benefit.
It's exactly why they don't have this structure in US sports. To try and keep the teams level not have the same team win the league ten years in a row. Then you have playoffs or whatever built on top of the leagues.
We'll see a lot of financial problems in football over the next couple of years as TV deal value and other income declines, boom is over. There is a big discussion and a debate here to be had, in regards to the CL and how the domestic leagues are structured. Just announcing the super league with no merit based qualification and no discussion first was totally stupid though.
I do not think that it is anything fundamentally wrong with the current CL format, it is okay as it is, with big leagues having a large representation and smaller league teams having a chance to qualify also.
The fact that 2 big english teams miss on CL is good, makes the PL more competitive and the top 4 prize more valuable.
2. For the smaller country teams, the money from CL is pure gold and can help them develop and prepare the following seasons or give them financial stability, which is also a good thing.
1 I do not agree at all, that's the reason fans protested against ESL, football is football, you cannot have Barca-Real every week, at some point it would stop being entertaining. Fans from Belgium, Russia, Ukraine or Hungary would love to see their team or a team from that respective country play against a big team or between each other. It is really the reason they play all year and it is the ultimate prize, even though probably they won't get too far in the competition.
The fact that 2 big english teams miss on CL is good, makes the PL more competitive and the top 4 prize more valuable.
2. For the smaller country teams, the money from CL is pure gold and can help them develop and prepare the following seasons or give them financial stability, which is also a good thing.
The current model isn’t sustainable. A temporary increase in revenue isn’t going to solve anything, it’ll simply make the problem worse in the long run.
Football needs to drastically curb its expenditure on wages and agents fees and work towards more even distribution of wealth across the football landscape. That’s the only way to promote entertainment and competition, while ensuring a sustainable business model. How it’s done is another story, as UEFA and FIFA seemingly have no intention of changing the current paradigm.
Let’s be fair, this is an issue created by the top clubs. Smaller clubs are struggling because they have been continually squeezed and marginalised as the larger clubs pursue more money and power. The big clubs themselves are struggling because of the insane contracts and fees they shell out in pursuit of greed and success.
Not the current format but potentially the new format that will be implemented in 2024/2025. Have you guys even read the new format yet?
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Is it only me that loves the group stage? I like seeing the big clash with the smaller teams. Since the games are played at the same time there are many fun games to watch.
Also it makes playoff special with the big games we get.
Also it makes playoff special with the big games we get.
We have all been hood winked
If they are on and I have time I’d watch them sure. Same as the big teams. I don’t see why it should be any different, I don’t support any of them I’m just hoping for a good match
I feel the same
The state of some of the posts. Its almost like 'small' European clubs deserve no money and no exposure on the big stage.
They should remain small clubs forever because their status in 2021 defined it so.
Feck.
They should remain small clubs forever because their status in 2021 defined it so.
Feck.
Yes! This guy gets it: this is exactly what I feel too. I think it’s quite arrogant of us to want to bin off the smaller teams just to watch the bigger teams clash the for the umpteenth time. For money. I want to see some smaller team take on Liverpool and cheer them on in the small hope they might make an upset
100%. And even when there’s not a chance in hell of the smaller team winning it can still be a magical night for them. This season in the Europa League we had Shamrock Rovers against AC Milan and Dundalk against Arsenal. Neither Irish time was ever in with a sniff of winning those games but they were nights the players will remember forever (as would the fans, if they’d been allowed in) Not to mention a much needed cash injection for the smaller clubs. Football needs more games like these, not less.
Ultimately this is what was seen as wrong with the CL by the elite clubs.
Their revenue share wasn't big enough.
They wanted 100% assurance they would be in the competition every season.
We now also know they were dissatisfied with current FFP rules in the competition.
Not enough games.
Ultimately their idea of FFP is that they are able to massively outspend non elite clubs giving them a massive advantage and that is how they think football should be, and also that there should be more Hollywood games. (giant against giant).
The smaller clubs is likely the opposite.
They want more even spread of money.
No qualification without on merit.
Less games (knockout only).
Flexibility on FFP so they can compete better.
What I think?
I think FFP in most part has been a tool used to try and stop clubs catching the elite clubs, note it ignores debt making Real Madrid's, and Barcelona debt's ignored by it, it is linked to revenue, which ironically is made more lopsided by the revenue share systems in football.
I think FFP should primarily be based on debt as well as profit and loss. In an ideal world we would have player budget caps that only have a small variance based on revenue, this would be true fairness as well as reducing risk of clubs going into financial ruin, but the elite would never accept that.
The CL should be champions only, knockout competition.
Normal UEFA cup should be knock out only.
Also I would bring back the cup winners cup.
Co-efficient should be scrapped, no seeded draws, no historical success effect on prize money, no wildcard entry, prize money is distributed based on progress in competition.
Think of back to your days at primary school, you picking teams, and taking turns to pick players, the elite would consider that unfair and instead would want to pick all their players before the other team.
Their revenue share wasn't big enough.
They wanted 100% assurance they would be in the competition every season.
We now also know they were dissatisfied with current FFP rules in the competition.
Not enough games.
Ultimately their idea of FFP is that they are able to massively outspend non elite clubs giving them a massive advantage and that is how they think football should be, and also that there should be more Hollywood games. (giant against giant).
The smaller clubs is likely the opposite.
They want more even spread of money.
No qualification without on merit.
Less games (knockout only).
Flexibility on FFP so they can compete better.
What I think?
I think FFP in most part has been a tool used to try and stop clubs catching the elite clubs, note it ignores debt making Real Madrid's, and Barcelona debt's ignored by it, it is linked to revenue, which ironically is made more lopsided by the revenue share systems in football.
I think FFP should primarily be based on debt as well as profit and loss. In an ideal world we would have player budget caps that only have a small variance based on revenue, this would be true fairness as well as reducing risk of clubs going into financial ruin, but the elite would never accept that.
The CL should be champions only, knockout competition.
Normal UEFA cup should be knock out only.
Also I would bring back the cup winners cup.
Co-efficient should be scrapped, no seeded draws, no historical success effect on prize money, no wildcard entry, prize money is distributed based on progress in competition.
Think of back to your days at primary school, you picking teams, and taking turns to pick players, the elite would consider that unfair and instead would want to pick all their players before the other team.
Uefa, in fairness, do at least attempt to get clubs from other parts of Europe represented in the CL. Unfortunately they've repeatedly had to compromise their stance because the big clubs have held the ESL over them for years. Uefa wants the league winners from Ukraine, Hungary etc in the competition, but the richest clubs see these fixtures as inconveniences that get in the way.
My personal preference would be for a champions only CL and an expanded Europa League. That way the Europa League would be the competition with the higher number of 'big clubs', but the CL would have the prestige of being for league winners only.
Never going to happen because it devalues the premier competition. Only way to make that work would be to have a collective pool of money spread for both competitions, with Uefa weighting the distribution towards clubs in the CL. But that would piss off the big clubs competing in the Europa and risk talks of a breakaway league. It's a never ending cycle because the wealthiest clubs always want a bigger piece of the pie.
My personal preference would be for a champions only CL and an expanded Europa League. That way the Europa League would be the competition with the higher number of 'big clubs', but the CL would have the prestige of being for league winners only.
Never going to happen because it devalues the premier competition. Only way to make that work would be to have a collective pool of money spread for both competitions, with Uefa weighting the distribution towards clubs in the CL. But that would piss off the big clubs competing in the Europa and risk talks of a breakaway league. It's a never ending cycle because the wealthiest clubs always want a bigger piece of the pie.
It's also why I'm certain the $$$ numbers the Super League snake oil merchants were pitching would have not held up. As if the rest of European football fans would continue to ardently watch this competition, when none of their teams are involved in any way, even if only aspirationally.