Although what helps Liverpool is their wing backs and fantastic crosses which is a different level of creativity. By having that it helps create a different type of space for our attackers
When are we going to stop making excuses about our number 10?
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Your first mistake is to underrate Liverpool's midfield. Henderson, Wijnaldum, Keita, Lallana, Milner, and Fabinho won't win any awards for creativity any time soon, but what they have in common is a collective understanding of their team's tactical system and what is required of them to make that system a success. They're all tidy on the ball, positionally sound, physical when necessary and they're experts in the art of pressing. Klopp doesn't need them to be creative, not when he has a forward line who's more than capable of providing for themselves or one another, if that fails then they can always rely on their fullbacks, who act more like wingers in Klopp's system, to provide for them.
The problem we have is our strikers aren't capable of providing for themselves consistently. They require a creative midfielder or two to feed them. Now take a look at our midfield; Pogba, Mctominay, Periera, Fred, Matic and... Yeah. Do you see the problem? We need massive investment in the midfield area if we hope to ever be successful again.
Yup.
Yes, great point about Mata! Please forgive me Juan if you read my post where I suggested that you are unsophisticated and lacking in technical ability. Nothing could be further from the truth.
However, Matic and Lingard for me are 'donkeys'. Matic in particular is a poster-child for the 'donkey' industry. He may not be particularly workman-like, but a player more limited, less varied and as unsophisticated in his abilities as Matic I have seldom seen.
To be honest, United are behaving like a person who has a few eggs, mushrooms and a few tomatoes in his fridge but excuses themselves from being able to do a proper days work because they aren't having beef bourguignon for lunch. Sometimes you need to use the little that you have to get what you need. The real issue for me is that I wonder whether tactically Ole has the wherewithal to do what Klopp has done with the likes of Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner with Lingard, Mata, Matic or for that matter Sanchez. Ole is the guy with the eggs, mushrooms and tomatoes who is looking at them and wondering "what am I supposed to do with this lot?". Make a freaking omelette for goodness sake!
I took no pleasure in talking up Liverpool's midfield or their strikers.
Fans already saw positive signs earlier on when these managers where appointed. I don’t see any positive signs in improvement to our football even though we have so many talented players in our squad and a net spend greater than 99% of other clubs in football. I would give Ole time if we were a team like Everton, West Ham, Spurs before Pochettino, or Leceister. But we are not. We are Manchester United. If we don’t hold such high standards Ole will turn us into Arsenal or Spurs.
What do you suggest, sacking Ole because his chairman was incapable of bringing in midfield reinforcements that we ALL knew was needed? No, that won't do. Sacking Ole now will set us right back to square one for the fourth time since Fergie retired and in a considerably worse position too.
Remember it's not Ole's fault that his midfield and striker options are severly limited, that's on the upper managerment who failed to do as required in the summer. Great job fixing the back four, but not to bring in at least one midfielder was a huge mistake.
Thanks for the post. There are some really good points in there.
Firstly, I am not underrating Wijnaldum, Milner and Henderson. Far from it, in my earlier post I acknowledged that they are excellent what they do, but what they do is limited. I also noted that Klopp has played to their strengths to such an extent that their strengths seemed to outweigh their weaknesses. That for me is excellent tactical acumen and exactly what I want Ole to do with some of our squad.
I think I am right that Klopp was even proposing to turn Adam Lallana into a number six? I don't know if he has or hasn't because I do not watch Liverpool matches, but that is an example of manager constantly thinking around a problem to see how to get more from less. Why isn't Ole doing that? Assuming that he isn't of course? Why are United fans taking a solely one-dimensional approach to problem-solving instead of demanding that the manager get more from what we already have?
My concerns is that whilst I totally agree that strengthening the midfield and other areas should be the bread and butter of any side that aspires to improve and compete for the top honours, if you don't even know how to get the best of what you have got, getting more may not necessarily solve your problem. As a club, we are wasteful of our resources. Take Mkhitaryan. Sanchez, Di Maria, Depay as just some examples of that tendency.
Hahahahahaha. These food analogies are gold, love them! No, I'm not sure Ole's much of a Ready, Steady, Cook improviser. I reckon he knows the ingredients he wants and could do a good job with them. He wants to make something quick and pleasing, like the nice cheesy omelette you mentioned. The heat's there. Ole's had a look at Sanchez but his sell-by date was September '17. Matic was missold, he's actually mutton, not lamb. Fred's a blowfish - doesn't do well in England and deadly when deployed incorrectly. Lingard's tofu - an inadequate substitute when you need something meaty. Mata... well, he's just too sweet to put out of his misery, you can't cook him. And he's only been given a slow cooker, an expensive one mind. I forget my point. They'd make a bad omelette, probably. Harry Maguire though, he seems like a good egg.
Klopp has a record to fall back on, the charisma that can come when you're already good at a job and know it. Ole's been overpromoted and is having to, quite humbly and correctly, work out what the heck he's doing on a day-to-day basis. Perhaps that ability to lift players will come with time - United partly won title after title because the players so didn't want to let down Papa Ferguson. This would be a different thing from coaching, more of a mindset thing. Let's be honest, I don't know if Ole's a good coach. But those players are at least part of the profile Klopp wanted, the ingredients he wanted.
You're right, Matic does fit the donkey tag, but one who may be for the Traveller's yard these days.
My fave description of Milner comes from Barney Ronay - "a man stubbornly doing lengths of a swimming pool as a water polo match goes on around him."
I think on this occasion, I will have to bow to your superior word-smithery. How do I compete with that?
Those players are able to play to their strengths at Liverpool because the rest of the team is good enough to pick up the slack in terms of creativity. Swap our forward line and fullbacks for their forward line and fullbacks, and their midfield would look far more limited even under Klopp. The midfield would be forced to pick up a much larger share of the creativity, so Klopp would either have to drop one or two of them and bring in more creative midfielders, or keep going how they are and they'd be back to more like what they were in his first 18 months at Liverpool where they certainly weren't anything special. I expect that given enough time he'd get 'our' forwards and fullbacks playing more similar to how he wanted, but it would take time.
It should be noted that even Pep and Klopp took 12 and 18 months respectively to get City and Liverpool really able to press and work in the way they wanted to. From memory Klopp started quite strongly but then fell away as his players became exhausted from the increased workload expected and injuries started racking up; just like what happened with us when Ole came in. Ole so far has had half a season and a preseason, and inherited a team that had spent more than 2 years doing almost the exact opposite with low workrate.
Ole prioritized defenders over midfield. If he wanted, he could have gotten a midfield like Bruno and a cheap defender like Alderweireld for the same price we paid for Maguire. The board backed Ole, Ole just prioritized improving one position over another.
Moreover, We already spent more than most clubs last window and the board is being conservative with their spending else we will have another situation where we give a manager half a billion and we see no improvement.
I m not suggesting sacking ole now. The only thing we can do is assess him until January and hope he turns things around. Then move forward from there. It is Ole faults because he is the one that decided where he wants to spend his transfer budget this summer. With the budget he got we could have easily fixed our midfield.
Klopp would be a better Man Utd manager. I agree, basically. I'd just like Ole to be given some time, in hope he will succeed.I think on this occasion, I will have to bow to your superior word-smithery. How do I compete with that?
Fabinho, Keita, Milner, Wijnaldum, Henderson all start for you tbh
On Liverpool's "donkeys" - Fabinho is a great player we missed out on because god knows why. Their midfield is overall still better than ours because after Pogba, the rest of our midfielders range from at best midtable to Championship quality.
Thanks for the post, but really, we are literally going out of way to avoid saying: you know what, Ole really should be getting more out of Matic, Mata, Lingard and Fred. He really should be exploring as many tactical options as possible to make use of the talents that these guys have to solve the problems that might be posed by opposition teams. I totally accept that Klopp has more experience and has had more time to apply his mind to these problems, but come on; we are treating Ole like some spotty trainee. He is Manchester United manager for goodness sake.
Also Ole has had just shy of two-thirds of a season. In his first 12 games in charge he got plenty of work-rate from the players. In the final 12 games the performance levels were very poor. In fact I think the win rate in his first 12 games was 10 in 12 and in his last 12 games it has been 2 wins in 12. Weren't we told that in pre-season United players would be bigger, stronger, faster, smarter? Well let's have it then?
Henderson is everything people want mctominnay to be
I think Lingard must be a dream player to manage, obedient in all respects to the coach, and always creating positive emotions for the team. Ole must see the issue, but just doesn’t have the guts to sack him. Ole is just too nice, and needs to get a hairdryer.
Ole just doesn't seem like a serious enough of a person to do and say what needs to be done and said. Somewhat spineless. I don't know if that is truly the case, he just appears that way from the outside looking in. It's all good if we are winning in style, but it's terrible when things don't go our way. Also, I've never seen Ole's style working for any manager for any football team in the past. It's good for making friends, but absolutely hopeless in managing a top-tier football team.
Klopp's Liverpool has always had big problems breaking down buses. It's only recently he's been able to address that, mostly by spamming crosses to quality forwards, and interplay which has taken a few years to hone.
In fact, the formation and personnel he plays now has been quite a slow evolution from his initial season.
My point being, Ole so far has not had the same amount of time Klopp has had to make such evolutions and decisions, and thus should not be compared to his current point. A fairer comparison might be the first few games of Klopp's 1st season in charge.
When you actually realise how true this is
How do you know that?
Didn't Ole come out multiple times saying he's happy with the squad?
Didn't he come out saying Gomes will be counted on yet he's nowhere to be seen even on the bench?
Who is to say the likes of Gomes, Mason, Chong, etc are ready for the step up if not the manager?
Would a top class manager go into a season being happy with bunch of kids and short squad?
Which other CM's have we been linked to that aren't British and expensive as hell?
Who is giving the profiles of the midfielders that we need? Woodward?
What is the point of the manager if he's absolved of the fault of going into a season completely unprepared and short both in midfield and attack?
Keeping average manager who is showing average results for 2-3-4 years who has also an average resume to begin with will leave you in an average position in 3-4 years when you will be at square 0, not 1.
It's not an excuse. It's the truth, whether you believe it or not.
The notion that Klopp can turn shite into gold is false. If you look closely, you'll notice that the only fundamental player in his starting lineup from the team he inherited from Rodgers is Firmino. Even Henderson would have been marginalized but Gerrard apparently had to pass the baton of the Master Cringe of all Scousers to someone (kidding, he's not special but he's excellent at pressing, his long passes are good and his switches of play well-timed etc).
Where you do have a point is that Klopp's an eye for creating roles for players who are good but not exceptional footballers. This happens for two reasons: Firstly, in the year 2019, he's as good as it gets it terms of managerial ability. Which means that what he does, at the level he does it, is not easy to replicate. For a quarter of a century, the roles were reversed and it was the Liverpool fans who were wondering how the hell can SAF come up with an ace up his sleeve every single time. Secondly, his employers have decided to indulge his vision. They didn't tell him to settle with what he has when he asked for VVD.
Given the new lavish contracts they were given, the board seems to believe that Rashford and Martial are the ones who will lead the line for United in the years to come. Many United fans fully agree with this notion and believe that we actually have the new Ronaldo and Rooney in our ranks. The inconvenient truth is that right now (don't know what the future holds) this doesn't seem to be the case. Rashford's ceiling seems to be Aubameyang (15-20 league goals guaranteed, raw pace suitable for counter-attacking/transition football where there are spaces to exploit). As for Martial, he's skilled on the ball. No doubt about that. The problem is what role to give him. He doesn't cover much ground to play on the wing and he lacks the intensity of a forward (something that is often masked by the fact that he's a good finisher). He reminds me very much of Giovanni at Barca in the late 90s. There wasn't a trick he could not perform with the ball but he wasn't making the others around him and the team in whole any better.
But here we are and these two are our best attacking options. They both like to get to the end of moves, not orchestrate them and they both look at their best when there's space to be exploited and if that's not the case when you get them on the ball as near to the box as possible. In this sense having top-class players who can operate in tight spaces and can be creative in the spaces between the lines is essential. It's a simple truth. We didn't get a single player that can do that. Instead, we gave Mata a new three-year deal and signed a kid from the Championship who's started pretty well but he can't be the answer to all our woes. Either that or start from scratch again.
Finally, i don't think people fully realize how good Liverpool's attacking trident is. Firmino is the best false-9 in the world bar Messi (who's not world-class, he's God-class) and the other two are players the two Spanish giants would beg, kill and murder to have now. In terms of first touch, close control, link-up ability, composure and consistency, 1v1 ... they're not just pace merchants or simply finishers.
The notion that Klopp can turn shite into gold is false. If you look closely, you'll notice that the only fundamental player in his starting lineup from the team he inherited from Rodgers is Firmino. Even Henderson would have been marginalized but Gerrard apparently had to pass the baton of the Master Cringe of all Scousers to someone (kidding, he's not special but he's excellent at pressing, his long passes are good and his switches of play well-timed etc).
Where you do have a point is that Klopp's an eye for creating roles for players who are good but not exceptional footballers. This happens for two reasons: Firstly, in the year 2019, he's as good as it gets it terms of managerial ability. Which means that what he does, at the level he does it, is not easy to replicate. For a quarter of a century, the roles were reversed and it was the Liverpool fans who were wondering how the hell can SAF come up with an ace up his sleeve every single time. Secondly, his employers have decided to indulge his vision. They didn't tell him to settle with what he has when he asked for VVD.
Given the new lavish contracts they were given, the board seems to believe that Rashford and Martial are the ones who will lead the line for United in the years to come. Many United fans fully agree with this notion and believe that we actually have the new Ronaldo and Rooney in our ranks. The inconvenient truth is that right now (don't know what the future holds) this doesn't seem to be the case. Rashford's ceiling seems to be Aubameyang (15-20 league goals guaranteed, raw pace suitable for counter-attacking/transition football where there are spaces to exploit). As for Martial, he's skilled on the ball. No doubt about that. The problem is what role to give him. He doesn't cover much ground to play on the wing and he lacks the intensity of a forward (something that is often masked by the fact that he's a good finisher). He reminds me very much of Giovanni at Barca in the late 90s. There wasn't a trick he could not perform with the ball but he wasn't making the others around him and the team in whole any better.
But here we are and these two are our best attacking options. They both like to get to the end of moves, not orchestrate them and they both look at their best when there's space to be exploited and if that's not the case when you get them on the ball as near to the box as possible. In this sense having top-class players who can operate in tight spaces and can be creative in the spaces between the lines is essential. It's a simple truth. We didn't get a single player that can do that. Instead, we gave Mata a new three-year deal and signed a kid from the Championship who's started pretty well but he can't be the answer to all our woes. Either that or start from scratch again.
Finally, i don't think people fully realize how good Liverpool's attacking trident is. Firmino is the best false-9 in the world bar Messi (who's not world-class, he's God-class) and the other two are players the two Spanish giants would beg, kill and murder to have now. In terms of first touch, close control, link-up ability, composure and consistency, 1v1 ... they're not just pace merchants or simply finishers.
1) I don't know for sure as I'm not a member of the boardroom at United. I'm basing it on what we've read in the media regarding our transfer activity; the manager gives the chairman a list of targets, who goes in search of these targets intent on buying them.
2) Yes, but what would you expect him to say?
3) Didn't he say youngsters such as Gomes and Garner would feature at a later point in the season? Either way, if they were ready to start for the first team, they would have done so already.
4) As a means to an end, yes, but I'm sure Ole is aware that the midfield situation needs addressing sooner rather than later. Next summer latest.
5) I don't follow transfer activity (unless we're chasing Eriksen
) but I know we were linked to Dybala, Bruno and a few others.6) Ole and the scouting staff?
7) There are extenuating circumstances in Ole's case. Taking over a team at the midway point of a season, one that is low on confidence, morale and self-belief, is a difficult job for anyone. I don't think it's fair to hold Ole responsible for his chairman failing to bring in the required midfield reinforcements.
But the thing is as soon as he took over that team went on a good run. So morale and belief shouldn't be a factor. If that was really an issue then our results should've been on upward trajectory, not the other way around.1) I don't know for sure as I'm not a member of the boardroom at United. I'm basing it on what we've read in the media regarding our transfer activity; the manager gives the chairman a list of targets, who goes in search of these targets intent on buying them.
2) Yes, but what would you expect him to say?
3) Didn't he say youngsters such as Gomes and Garner would feature at a later point in the season? Either way, if they were ready to start for the first team, they would have done so already.
4) As a means to an end, yes, but I'm sure Ole is aware that the midfield situation needs addressing sooner rather than later. Next summer latest.
5) I don't follow transfer activity (unless we're chasing Eriksen
6) Ole and the scouting staff?
7) There are extenuating circumstances in Ole's case. Taking over a team at the midway point of a season, one that is low on confidence, morale and self-belief, is a difficult job for anyone. I don't think it's fair to hold Ole responsible for his chairman failing to bring in the required midfield reinforcements.
It's fair to say after that PSG game the team was at one of its highest points in terms of morale since years.
The midfielders you named are attacking midfielders. We didn't really addressed DM and CM, apart from Longstaff - who also is a young and not proven player.
I don't really buy it us a club not to be able to attract two midfielders as a stop gap for a decent amount to ease the process if the manager requires it.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Lingard just needs to stop hiding. Period! Give Sanchez a run of games as our number 10
They also have a striker who is basically a creative-midfielder, with two elite level forwards playing either side of him who also chip in on the creation side, and two of the best fullbacks from a chance creation point of view this league has ever seen. We have one player in our entire squad who is comparable to those 5, and we also expect him to dictate play from deep, lead our transitions, AND chip in with 10-15 goals. It's a massive problem.
Martial and Pogba have the best connection in the team. With Martial now playing striker I would like to see what that means for the team if Pogba plays the 10
I wouldn’t be so quick to write off his approach. Jose was serious enough to get things done, but lacked the backing of the fans and team and was ultimately unsuccessful in getting his way in the boardroom. Ole has the backing of the fans and team and behind closed doors who knows what his demeanor is like. I think the improvement in our approach over the summer (buying only players who actually want to be here) is down to Ole and proves he isn’t the yes-man some suggest.
Liverpool have better attacking and creative options than us, which several posters have told you and you're choosing to ignore. And 'donkey' refers to poor quality players, not workmanlike ones. This thread is going round and round in circles.
How about promoting Dylan Levitt to first team as no. 10? This lad is promising, has sense of teammates' positon, attacking mind, accurate passing, and seems he likes to dictate the game.
Definitely better option than Lingard.
Definitely better option than Lingard.
Wijnaldum has been a great signing for Liverpool and so has Fabinho. So much for three donkeys. That then leaves Keita (who hasn’t adapted yet) or Henderson / Milner - neither of which are world beaters but put in 100% effort which is more than you can say for most of our players.
Then they have their front three which are twice as good as ours.
Then they have their front three which are twice as good as ours.
Thank you. I said this in another one as well, look at Spurs as well.
We need to get more from the current players.
Liverpool use their midfielders as runners to cover the full-backs and recover the ball. Their creativity is from TAA, Robertson, Salah, Firmino, and Mane. In comparison, our creativity is Pogba. Literally, nobody else in our team regularly creates chances. Martial and Rashford don't regularly make chances for each other. Our delivery from wide areas is really poor.
It seems to me we are trying to play a fluid counter-attacking style to best utilise the athleticism and pace of Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Lingard and James. This falls down when we play teams who camp on their own box. This is why people wanted to see Mata or Gomes in at no10 in place of Lingard as they are better suited to the game when it is more compressed.
It's also why Mourinho wanted Lukaku and Fellaini so he could throw the ball forward to try and disrupt a packed defense and cause chaos. It seems we are somewhat stuck between Mourinho's style and moving to a passing game aimed at unpicking these defences in that we have sold the lump it up brigade but not replaced them. If we had sold those two and signed younger versions of Aguero and Silva then we would look far better.
If we hesitated in the summer because Bruno Fernandes was another 'runner' rather than having guile then that would suggest the decision making has taken a step forward. That being said we need some serious investment as the squad is so thin. With the players sold and more likely to leave we really need to muscle to the front of the queue for the next batch of technically proficient players. Sancho, Kai Havertz, Dani Olmo, Houssem Aouar etc etc.
Liverpool’s creativity comes from their front three and fullbacks. The donkeys in the midfield are a shield for those players.
We can forget about that kind of creative output from any of our attackers and fullbacks. Not going to happen. So like any other regular non-Liverpool team, we need a creative midfielder. Not Pogba or Lingard. But an actual creative midfielder.
We can forget about that kind of creative output from any of our attackers and fullbacks. Not going to happen. So like any other regular non-Liverpool team, we need a creative midfielder. Not Pogba or Lingard. But an actual creative midfielder.
Liverpool have different style of play with attacking full back & world class trio attackers. They don't need to rely on their midfield because their full backs are very good in their final third. While our full backs are more defensive so we need to rely on our midfield especially the no 10.
We dropped a loaf by not going in for Bruno. Lingard just isn't anywhere near the quality of Bruno. But Lingard can play an important role as our first choice harasser of the opposition when the circumstance calls for it.
Without creativity in the final third, we labor to create chances. One goal against a club like Palace is absurd.
Maybe later this season Gomes becomes the answer but he's not the answer right and we've already dropped 5 points because of our obscene inadequacy in the 10 in a 4231.
Without creativity in the final third, we labor to create chances. One goal against a club like Palace is absurd.
Maybe later this season Gomes becomes the answer but he's not the answer right and we've already dropped 5 points because of our obscene inadequacy in the 10 in a 4231.