When is it ever the players' faults?

[RedSky]

When a CB is your 3rd highest goal scorer with 4 goals in 24 PL games (all games in 2018). You know the problem is the Manager. That not good enough for a team striving for a top 10 finish let alone aiming for a League challenge. Wasn't all that long ago said Manager thought our attack was fine and yet here we are.

In reality, some of our players have downed tools and have done for a while. Most cases the Manager and Players are both at fault. Same in this scenario.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Is it true though? It might be revisionism on my part buy I thought that we lacked quality under LVG but that he built a solid base to built on, the structure was interesting despite a lack of quality and the results were decent. The issue is that because LVG is really bad at purchasing players I was convinced that he would never bring the correct players and that our performances would be forever dull.

Today it's different, I have no idea about what the structure is while I also think that Mourinho brought decent players that will be useful to someone else.

At the time I thought he built a solid base too. Then again, like many here, I also thought Schneiderlin would fix a major gaping hole in the squad, yet he went on to be a totally nothing player overnight. Many thought Darmian would solve a major problem too, he came highly rated, and even started very well.

I agree about the structure now. I too don't understand what the plan is, 3 seasons in and I don't think he or the fans know our best 11. I think another manager could very quickly get this squad operating much better than it is, there are a lot of very good players, it just needs the right man, but I have no idea who that is.

 

[ErranMorad]

It was LVG's fault, sacked him.

Now it's one of the most successful manager's fault, sack him?

Out of the starting line up yesterday, he inherited: DDG, Valencia, Smalling, Shaw, Fellaini, Rashford, Martial.

DDG: world class

Valencia: great servant but now past it
Smalling: our best cb but a way below reaching the status of rio and vidic. Not a dig, he's fashioned a good career but we can do better.
Shaw: would have been sold a year ago under a different manager with less patience. Starting to come good this year.
Fellaini: good hard worker, terrible last night though
Rashford: immature young kid
Martial: moody, on his day a great player but more often than not can't be bothered.

Take into consideration that last season, these guys used to start almost every game (except Shaw who was benched). Granted Jose's signings haven't worked out, but he really inherited players not of the required quality for a club like us.

I'm sorry but if Jose Mourinho can't set this team up not to concede stupid goals and be clinical in front of goal then no one can.

What's the solution? Sell all of them and buy Jose new players? Given that he has bought players to play in some of these players positions already - Lindelof, Dalot, Fred, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez - what's the guarantee that the next set is going to work out? He also forced us to give Fellaini a new contract. Also gave Rojo a new one.

For educational purposes, what are your views on - Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Bailly, Lindelof, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Dalot & Fred?

If the next batch doesn't work out, should Jose be allowed their replacements too? Is there a limit to this or should this continue until this great manager who can do a job "no one can" can figure it out?

 

[lysglimt]

At the end of the day it's the managers job to get results. So if he doesn't get results it's because (quite simplified but still) a) he signed the wrong players or b) he can't get the players to perform

In Mourinhos case its really easy - he has failed in every aspect this season, no entertainmen, signed wrong players, not get results....so why he hasnt been fire already, I dont know!

 

[Hamadovich86]

Its the player's fault if they are out of form (not intentional though), if they fail to implement the instructions of the manager out of lack of understanding or stubbornness and if they simply dont have the quality to implement what the manager wants. Think of it as a company, if its under performing or not doing well financially its down to the executives and management and not the workers, individually you may have some who arent good enough or need additional training but it is the responsibility of leadership to turn things around thats what being a leader is.

 

[Slevs]

What's the solution? Sell all of them and buy Jose new players? Given that he has bought players to play in some of these players positions already - Lindelof, Dalot, Fred, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez - what's the guarantee that the next set is going to work out? He also forced us to give Fellaini a new contract. Also gave Rojo a new one.

For educational purposes, what are your views on - Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Bailly, Lindelof, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Dalot & Fred?

If the next batch doesn't work out, should Jose be allowed their replacements too? Is there a limit to this or should this continue until this great manager who can do a job "no one can" can figure it out?

Mkhi- good player, mentality very weak and deserved to be sold (and this is coming from an Armenian)

Pogba- immature but good talented player, lacks tactical awareness and doesn't get that he has to learn it to be considered one of the best midfielders in the world

Bailly- inexperienced, good qualities to be a beast but needs to work very hard

Lindeloff- can't read this guy, good passer, terrible in physical battles (1st requirement of a cb)

Lukaku- good striker, maybe we spent too much on him. Lacks technical quality, no crosses and slow transition pkay isn't helping his cause too

Matic- good player, midfield general.who will shield the back 4

Sanchez- high hopes, needs to play on the right and needs more fluid and quicker passing (looking at you Paul "ball hog" Pogba

Dalot- very promising, should displace Valencia soon. But its good to remember he's still 19 so Jose is rightly easing him in slowly

Fred- good midfielder, bought to seemingly unlock Pogba. Plays good quick passes in the middle.

 

[Greck]

When is what exactly ever the player's fault. Players are accountable for their own individual performance. Managers are accountable for the performance of the collective, and this applies even in non-football organisations

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

When is what exactly ever the player's fault. Players are accountable for their own individual performance. Managers are accountable for the performance of the collective, and this applies even in non-football organisations

What about when the issues cross 3 different managers and various different employees over a 5 year period? That's what leaves me scratching my head. From Mata, through Depay to Pogba and Lukaku we have players underperforming from their roles at other clubs.

 

[redIndianDevil]

This is the first ever thread I've started since lurking on here. I've always couldn't be bothered to start a thread and not sure how long this will last, but since the doom and gloom on here, all you need to do is take a quick glance on the Caf and you can see countless Mourinho threads, basically blaming him from performances on the pitch, to transfers, and press conferences. But let's focus on the match performances. I think we can safely say that if we follow the narrative of the Caf, it will be like this:

Scenario 1
If player is underperforming or demotivated = Mourinho's fault because it is his job to motivate and get the best out of players.

Scenario 2
2) If the team fails to get a result = Mourinho's fault, because the buck stops with the manager?

Scenario 3
3) If the dressing room atmosphere is bad = Mourinho's fault because he is the one who should be in control of the dressing room.

Now my question is, in what situation will it be the players' fault?

For instance, in Scenario 2, if the team fails to grab a win because Lukaku failed to convert two easy chances. Now, if Lukaku would've scored those two chances, we would've gone on to win the match and there wouldn't be much people moaning about the result and the manager. But unfortunately, Lukaku did not win the match for us, and people will once again call for the manager's head.

Likewise for Scenario 3, let's say player X is unhappy with the manager and starts to cause some disharmony in the dressing room. And he starts to convince other players to stand up against the manager. Surely, it's that player's fault? Or is still the manager's fault because he has failed to control the dressing room? Because it's always the easiest route to blame the manager, simply because we do not know exactly what is going on behind the scenes.

Basically, to cut it short, it seems to me that the popular opinion on here is that almost anything negative that happens to the club on or off the pitch is down to the manager, and not so much the players. I understand it's not an either/or situation, but there must be hundreds of threads calling for Mourinho's head. Is it safe to say that a player's job is generally safer and more secure than a manager's job, no matter what happens?

Just wish to reiterate that, I agree that Mourinho himself has a lot to answer for regarding our recent form, and this is not a thread defending Mourinho. More like an empathy thread.

For your scenario 1, if one/two players are underperforming or are demotivated, then it's not the problem of the manager but when the entire squad is struggling and a world class talent who was ripping up the premier league looks atrocious and play like a Championship level player, then the manager is at fault. For example, no one criticized when Martial was struggling under Mourinho two years back, everyone knew Martial had personal problems that year and backed the manager.


For your scenario 2, no one is criticizing Mourinho for Lukaku missing couple of chances, the problem is that those two are the only clear chances we create all game. That is why those misses are magnified. Watch the likes of City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea, their players miss as many chances but since they create so much more, their players eventually score and those misses are forgotten.

For your scenario 3, if the entire squad is happy with the way the manager is coaching the team and just one player had a problem, there won't be noise at all(only Messi and Ronaldo are exceptions and Pogba doesn't belong in this category). Take Ibra for example, look how he got out of Barcelona, that happened because the entire Barcelona squad was happy with Guardiola and only Ibra wasn't. Similarly if all was well within our squad, Pogba and his agent wouldn't be running their mouths or running to the press.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What about when the issues cross 3 different managers and various different employees over a 5 year period? That's what leaves me scratching my head. From Mata, through Depay to Pogba and Lukaku we have players underperforming from their roles at other clubs.

I think the most likely explanation is that we’ve hired the wrong manager, three times in a row. And with each failure the new manager’s job gets harder as bad habits and attitudes get more and more ingrained throughout the squad.

It’s a dreadful fecking state of affairs but you can’t get away from the simple fact that Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho have all turned out to be terrible appointments. And they’re terrible appointments without any need for hindsight. I’ve been as patient as possible with all three of them but there were blatant red flags over every one of them, from before they took the job.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Blaming the manager is a subconscious way for people to tell themselves "everything is going to be ok". If they convince themselves it's all the managers fault then that means there is a quick fix and they'll be happy again soon. If they were to accept that the players aren't good enough then it would mean accepting that this may take years to sort. People don't like that.

Agreed, good post.

 

[WensleyMU]

On the pitch? It is always the players fault.

Nobody blames Rodgers for Gerrard's slip, do they? The moment any player, at any club steps out on to the pitch, they are responsible for what happens over the next 2 X 45 minutes.

Off the pitch, players, managers, coaches and the club as a whole are to blame. They share the highs and the lows, or at least they should. In reality, one man cops it all, it's something thats part of the nature of the game, spurred largely by the rise of player power and the media who push a narrative for nothing more than selling their utterly worthless opinions. It's the easy option, it avoids difficult questions and above all else, it justifies the existence of the board at the footballing level. It screams 'look at us, we do things'.

People often claim United are just catching up with everyone else in the world of the manager merry go round, but which club has ever enjoyed the success we did through the stability we had by chopping and changing their manager every season or two? None, not a single one. The two most successful clubs in this country became so because of just two men (at each club). True dominance is achieved through stability.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

I think the most likely explanation is that we’ve hired the wrong manager, three times in a row. And with each failure the new manager’s job gets harder as bad habits and attitudes get more and more ingrained throughout the squad.

It’s a dreadful fecking state of affairs but you can’t get away from the simple fact that Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho have all turned out to be terrible appointments. And they’re terrible appointments without any need for hindsight. I’ve been as patient as possible with all three of them but there were blatant red flags over every one of them, from before they took the job.

I kind of agree but you can find red flags with any appointment if you look hard enough.

Moyes - Disaster I agree and should never have got the job and certainly not following Fergie when we needed a proven winner to get some trophies in the cabinet asap in the post SAF era. Terrible.

Van Gaal - I could see the logic especially after the Moyes debacle. Bring in a hugely experienced man used to dealing with big players and big clubs albeit without experience in England. I have to say I was excited by the majority of his signings at the time they were made. Easy to be wise after the event as I absolutely have been but I was optimistic if Im honest.

Mourinho - Again, I was happy although he should absolutely have been given the job in 2013. Again though, early signs were good and after two trophies in the first season there was every reason to look for a kick on. Signings looked hopeful too.

However as is the way every signing either fails or regresses, the football is shocking and results go downhill and we have had 5 years of it now. The problem is regardless of what we do I wouldn't bet against it continuing unless there is some dramatic change of direction but Im not even sure what that should be.

 

[JPRouve]

I think the most likely explanation is that we’ve hired the wrong manager, three times in a row. And with each failure the new manager’s job gets harder as bad habits and attitudes get more and more ingrained throughout the squad.

It’s a dreadful fecking state of affairs but you can’t get away from the simple fact that Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho have all turned out to be terrible appointments. And they’re terrible appointments without any need for hindsight. I’ve been as patient as possible with all three of them but there were blatant red flags over every one of them, from before they took the job.

It's so simple that we try to find sophisticated answers. There is a reason why no ambitious club tried to sign Moyes, why LVG was out of club football and why Mourinho had a meltdown at Chelsea. I think that Mourinho deserved the benefit of doubts and the gamble seemingly didn't pay off but it's not really surprising.

 

[JPRouve]

People often claim United are just catching up with everyone else in the world of the manager merry go round, but which club has ever enjoyed the success we did through the stability we had by chopping and changing their manager every season or two? None, not a single one. The two most successful clubs in this country became so because of just two men (at each club). True dominance is achieved through stability.

I'm not sure if you are talking about England or the world, if it's the latter then all the other big clubs have had as much success without managerial stability.

 

[WensleyMU]

I'm not sure if you are talking about England or the world, if it's the latter then all the other big clubs have had as much success without managerial stability.

England. It's very different to the rest of Europe, largely because there's far more competition for success throughout history.

Although, Real and Bayern's most successful managers were also their longest serving. Reals especially taking them through their most dominant period ever. Similar at Juventus.

So even outside of England, the most dominant period for many of the top clubs came with their longest serving managers. A period of stability that brought complete dominance.

 

[JPRouve]

England. It's very different to the rest of Europe, largely because there's far more competition for success throughout history.

Although, Real and Bayern's most successful managers were also their longest serving. Reals especially taking them through their most dominant period ever. Similar at Juventus.

So even outside of England, the most dominant period for many of the top clubs came with their longest serving managers. A period of stability that brought complete dominance.

It's actually very easy and intuitive to understand that it's the other way around, success brings stability. You have literally no reason to change manager when he is good.

 

[WensleyMU]

It's actually very easy and intuitive to understand that it's the other way around, success brings stability. You have literally no reason to change manager when he is good.

Its a bit of both. Success isn't always instant after all.

 

[simplyared]

Easy answer to the OP:
The manager takes the credit for winning trophies and therefore must also take the blame when it's the opposite.
I can only find one example where the manager cannot take the blame for a player's lack of enthusiasm, bad form, underperformance, etc.
Example: Coutinho wanting to leave Liverpool for Barcelona. Klopp had obviously nothing whatsoever to do with that.
Re Lukaku missing easy chances:
It's happened repeatedly so answer is he shouldn't have been on the field in the 1st place = manager's responsibility.
Re players starting unrest in the dressing room and generally influencing others negatively:
Roy Keane was dealt with by SAF in the best and only possible way = manager's responsibility.
However if there is a growing negativity in the dressing room which the manager cannot put an end to (as the case is looking with us) then the problem obviously goes deeper = manager's fault and responsibility of the board to replace him.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I think the most likely explanation is that we’ve hired the wrong manager

I don't really agree that Mourinho is not the right manager for this club. Whether or not, right now is the right time to be hiring this kind of manager is a different story. The common denominator is an overpaid collection of responsibility shirkers that are pretending to be football players. They might try, they might want what is best for the fans and the gaff, they might even want to win for themselves. But they damn well know if everything gets to hard and they don't come out on top then who cares? They won't get the arse, the manager will.

Lets be real. This club wasn't built on nuanced, hipster wankball. It's about fighting your balls off and running through walls to please the fans on match day and work your bollocks off. West Ham mugged us on the weekend. They weren't afraid to have a go at us because they know we have a bunch of overpaid pussies who will throw their rattle before they stand up and not let them run all over them.

This will be no easy fix. Football beauty is in the eye of the beholder, winning breeds winning, discipline breeds structure and leadership. I see absolutely none of that right now and you could bin the absolute lot of them and I wouldn't bat an eyelid to be honest.

But sure, bin the manager and lets see what somebody else can do with this lot. Good luck, if it goes down exactly the same as it did with Moyes and Van Gaal then we can just do that again if we need to.

Mourinho might be shite, he might be a dinosaur I don't know. But he is probably the closest thing to the type of football that won us games under Fergie, if the players could actually give a bollock and sack up on the football pitch and take responsibility it would be nice to at least see before taking the easy way out and bumming off another manager.

 

[Oldyella]

When one or two are out of form. And it's always pointed out in their performance threads when that is the case. When the whole team look like strangers then that's on the coach.

 

[Kapardin]

Players are at fault when the manager's tactics, selection and system is on point. For example, if Klopp fields a trio of Milner-Hendo-Wijnaldum, you can see they are coached to overcome some of their defects and that the system is tailored to their skills. Both Wijnaldum and Henderson are average players who wouldn't get into top sides (Milner is genuinely a top player). So, if on a day, either of those two perform badly and costs Liverpool games, their fans can blame them and not Klopp, who's done the maximum to get the best out of them.

But in our case, Mourinho has not implemented any system or identity that masks the defects of our players. Rather, it exposes all their weaknesses, whether it is Lukaku not being able to score or Lindelof not being able to defend. In such a case, the majority of the blame should be on the manager as it is not always possible to have world class players in every position. Some amount of adjustment is necessary if you aren't a state backed club who can buy as much as they want.

When a manager comes in and implements a perfect system, then we will see how these players play, and judge them accordingly. Until then, the buck stops with the manager.

 

[JPRouve]

Its a bit of both. Success isn't always instant after all.

But you still judge a manager on his performances, by you I'm talking about clubs. They will judge the way he performs within the facilities, how he reaches milestones that are most likely predetermined, each milestones reached is a success in itself and as long as he reaches them he will keep his job. Maybe we shouldn't use the term success and use the term performing because it's more accurate, good performances lead to stability and good performances also lead to success when you have the means to sustain them. In the end stability is a by-product when you put it first you forget what you need to do to get there.

Now we can all agree that patience, realism and good evaluation are source of stability and success because if you can't spot good/bad performances then you are in trouble.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I kind of agree but you can find red flags with any appointment if you look hard enough.

Moyes - Disaster I agree and should never have got the job and certainly not following Fergie when we needed a proven winner to get some trophies in the cabinet asap in the post SAF era. Terrible.

Van Gaal - I could see the logic especially after the Moyes debacle. Bring in a hugely experienced man used to dealing with big players and big clubs albeit without experience in England. I have to say I was excited by the majority of his signings at the time they were made. Easy to be wise after the event as I absolutely have been but I was optimistic if Im honest.

Mourinho - Again, I was happy although he should absolutely have been given the job in 2013. Again though, early signs were good and after two trophies in the first season there was every reason to look for a kick on. Signings looked hopeful too.

However as is the way every signing either fails or regresses, the football is shocking and results go downhill and we have had 5 years of it now. The problem is regardless of what we do I wouldn't bet against it continuing unless there is some dramatic change of direction but Im not even sure what that should be.

The thing is, you look at the careers of all three of them away from United and that puts what happened with us in context. Mourinho and Van Gaal both seem to be very much yesterday’s men and Moyes is Moyes.

Yes, Mourinho did get Chelsea to a league title but that was in the context of a generally shitty standard in the PL (miles off the pace in Europe, with Leicester the title-holders the following season) That one last hurrah aside, his career was in a fairly downward trajectory, as confirmed by his horrific second season.

All in all, I’m comfortable enough with the idea our problems are as simple as hiring the wrong manager three times in a row. I don’t see the need to agonise about more systemic problems when all three of them have proven to be dreadful feck-ups at clubs other than United.

 

[2mufc0]

The buck stops at the manager, he's had enough transfer windows to buy and sell the players he needs to fit his system.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

The thing is, you look at the careers of all three of them away from United and that puts what happened with us in context. Mourinho and Van Gaal both seem to be very much yesterday’s men and Moyes is Moyes.

Yes, Mourinho did get Chelsea to a league title but that was in the context of a generally shitty standard in the PL (miles off the pace in Europe, with Leicester the title-holders the following season) That one last hurrah aside, his career was in a fairly downward trajectory, as confirmed by his horrific second season.

All in all, I’m comfortable enough with the idea our problems are as simple as hiring the wrong manager three times in a row. I don’t see the need to agonise about more systemic problems when all three of them have proven to be dreadful feck-ups at clubs other than United.

I struggle with that a little simply because it absolves £700m of players from the blame and I refuse to accept that each and every one of them has regressed under the respective managers purely because of said managers. I can understand them being shackled or constrained by them but not to the extent of failure that we have seen.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Certainly the players can't remain blameless in all this, but the simple fact of the matter is i have no clue what we're even trying to do. It's not as if we got the wrong players for a system, it's that we haven't even got a fecking system.

You can't even look at us and say you can see what we're trying to do. There's nothing there. Even when we score it's almost by accident rather than by design. Yes we have players out of form. If Lukaku had finished some of his chances off in a couple of game we've had this season, then we probably would have picked up a few more points, but the systemic problems would still exist.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Ive been jumping from side to side the last few weeks on who takes the more blame, the manager or the players. Ultimately Jose bears the brunt of it because at the end of the day he is the coach and its his job to 'manage' the team (in many areas and aspects). His so called superior coaching skills need to come into effect at some point surely? im starting to believe they simply aren't there any more.

But regarding the players their mentality and workrate needs to be questioned. You could see last night after 15 minutes it was like a switch was flicked in their style. They started very positively attacking fast, then it was almost as if because they failed to score in that period, the heads dropped and they went back to the same old sh*te. No urgency, indecisiveness, no will to have a go. No more give and go, just drop deep and pass it then walk back to position. Its like they just instantly lost the belief they could win and reverted back. it only went downhill from there. I said to my mate at half time, if Valencia score this game is over, because none of them boys have the mentality to pull this back.

But then again, back to why ive been jumping between who to blame. You could come back to Jose, and say this is where he should step in and motivate them, change something up. try something new..After all thats his job! Even have them do what they did first 15mins ffs!? nah none of that.. I cant see it improving at all unless some big changes made in whats happening behind the scenes

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I struggle with that a little simply because it absolves £700m of players from the blame and I refuse to accept that each and every one of them has regressed under the respective managers purely because of said managers. I can understand them being shackled or constrained by them but not to the extent of failure that we have seen.

Managers life and die by how well players perform on the pitch. When a team performs like more than the sum of its parts (often the case under Fergie) then the manager gets deserved plaudits. So who do we blame when a team performa like much less than the sum of its parts? (consistently the case since Fergie left)

 

[Zlatattack]

If the problem is with an individual and their performance, typically its more likely to be the players fault. If the problem is with the whole team, it's likely to be the managers fault.

 

[JPRouve]

I struggle with that a little simply because it absolves £700m of players from the blame and I refuse to accept that each and every one of them has regressed under the respective managers purely because of said managers. I can understand them being shackled or constrained by them but not to the extent of failure that we have seen.

You don't have to accept a lot, most of these players have been badly evaluated, they didn't regress they were just not good enough from the beginning or not the ideal purchases. Some players weren't the finished product but expected to hit the ground running, others were average players with little added value, others probably have bad attitude either way it's the job of the managing staff to identify the correct players, players don't purchase themselves.

 

[Zlatattack]

I struggle with that a little simply because it absolves £700m of players from the blame and I refuse to accept that each and every one of them has regressed under the respective managers purely because of said managers. I can understand them being shackled or constrained by them but not to the extent of failure that we have seen.

Look at the different players we've had over 3 managers. None of them have excelled. Some of them have even improved when they've left (Depay for instance).

 

[simplyared]

The thing is, you look at the careers of all three of them away from United and that puts what happened with us in context. Mourinho and Van Gaal both seem to be very much yesterday’s men and Moyes is Moyes.

Yes, Mourinho did get Chelsea to a league title but that was in the context of a generally shitty standard in the PL (miles off the pace in Europe, with Leicester the title-holders the following season) That one last hurrah aside, his career was in a fairly downward trajectory, as confirmed by his horrific second season.

All in all, I’m comfortable enough with the idea our problems are as simple as hiring the wrong manager three times in a row. I don’t see the need to agonise about more systemic problems when all three of them have proven to be dreadful feck-ups at clubs other than United.

The last paragraph is bang on!

 

[KW2006]

When some players play bad, we blame them. When a team play bad we blame the players and the manager. When a team always playing bad, we shift more burden to the manager.

What is the point of this thread?

 

[L1nk]

Of course the players have to take some responsibility in the way things are at the club, and quite frankly I think a lot of players in squad are Mid-to-Bottom league tier players that shouldn't be anywhere near our squad nevermind first team. However, the reason most of the buck stops with the manager is that, whilst it isn't the managers fault if say they miss an open goal or misplace a pass, it's the managers job to set an environment up for the players that gives them the best opportunity to succeed, by that I mean dealing with training, tactics, team selection, substitutions, identifying players they want, identifying who they want rid of, I could go on...

Now, you only have to look at specific players, playing under different managers, to realise the vast difference having specific managers can do for you.

Paul Pogba - Played great at Juventus and is a recent World Cup winner. Arguably has shown none of this form for United and has obviously fallen out with Mourinho.
Romelu Lukaku - Just seems like double the player at Everton than he has been here.
Marcus Rashford - Stormed onto the scene under LVG, now has just kinda regressed.
Anthony Martial - Same as Rashford really, has obviously fallen out of favour with Mourinho too.
Victor Lindelof - Excellent for Benfica, a proper ball playing CB, has been largely trash since getting here.
Alexis Sanchez - One of the worlds best at various clubs. Been absolutely garbage for us.
Fred - Early days obviously so can't really judge, i don't see anything special though personally.

That's just some, if i had to list players like Scott McTominay, Jesse Lingard, Phil Jones, Ashley Young etc well I don't blame them at all, why don't I blame them? Much like Moyes shouldn't of been put in the position to become the manager of Manchester United, some of these players should not be in the position to play for this club, the club see's fit to pay average players inflated salaries and our manager see's fit to continuously play them despite the fact they are obviously not good enough, how is that their fault, they aren't going to say no are they.

Jesse Lingard - Squad player at best
Scott McTominay - Not good enough, if he wasn't a homegrown we'd sell him and if he was on another team we wouldn't buy him.
Phil Jones - Might of been decent once upon a time but he's just a calamitous crock now.
Chris Smalling - Might of been decent once upon a time and shows glimpses still but he's just not that consistently good is he.
Ashley Young - Awful, can swing in a decent cross every now and again.
Marouane Fellaini - Slow, can swing an elbow, gets the odd good goal with his head, not worth it when the main tactic becomes lump it to Fellaini every damn time.
Matteo Darmian - Just awful, despite being much promise when he signed.
Nemanja Matic - Slow, pondering, just slows the play down far too much for me, Mark Noble had him in his pocket, it's like having a worse Schweinsteiger again.
Juan Mata - Hard to see what he offers these days, but he should not be on the damn wing.
Ander Herrera - Squad player at best these days, at least shows some actual fight and passion unlike half the squad.
Marcos Rojo - Not good enough.

I mean I could go on but, we made it so we can't get rid of half this crap because we pay them too much, half of them shouldn't of been brought in in the first place, we get bent over a barrel by Fellaini and hand him a new contract. It's just a shit show from top to bottom, but Mourinho's poisonous toxic atmosphere just makes it 10x worse, his system clearly doesn't get the best out of the players, he constantly slags them off, who the hell would want to play for a manager like this, he's just narcissistic, shallow, argumentative, toxic I could go on.

But one of the main things for me is, why the manager is a lot at fault, all clubs have players on their squads that are average, maybe we have more than others, but, Liverpool have average players on their squad, so do Chelsea, hell even City don't have a full squad of World Class players, but their managers get the absolute best out of them, that's also what Fergie was good at doing, the standards have dropped so low here that we don't even expect our managers to get the best out of their squads anymore, we always have to give the managers 5 years, 1 billion to spend and a full squad of their own players before we can judge them, despite the fact every manager in world football has to run with a squad of players from a previous manager and some make a total success of it, like Conte, like Sarri, like Emery, like Tuchel, like Klopp, like Pochettino... I could go on but it's getting tiresome at this point.

 

[sunama]

Pretty sure everyone has been calling Lukaku a donkey, Valencia useless, Pogba self obsessed and not as good as he can be, Matic too slow, Lindelof inept, Bailly rash, Sanchez done for etc etc etc. God knows where this idea came from that fans don’t blame players. Looks like another one trying desperately to give manager some leeway which he doesn’t deserve.

I am not trying to give the manager leeway on this.
However, I also don't want to be one of those who believe that our players are fantastic and that when the right manager comes in, they will instantly be performing brilliantly.
IMO, last season, that squad of players got 2nd place and that was as good as any manager could've gotten out of them.

The problem is that this season, 10th place is not where this squad should be.

My worry is that we get another manager in and the same thing repeats itself and we go another 3 years without a league title, because we all believe that our players are fantastic and that it's all the manager's fault.

 

[Moonred]

I am not trying to give the manager leeway on this.
However, I also don't want to be one of those who believe that our players are fantastic and that when the right manager comes in, they will instantly be performing brilliantly.
IMO, last season, that squad of players got 2nd place and that was as good as any manager could've gotten out of them.

The problem is that this season, 10th place is not where this squad should be.

My worry is that we get another manager in and the same thing repeats itself and we go another 3 years without a league title, because we all believe that our players are fantastic and that it's all the manager's fault.

Well you'd be foolish to think our squad of players are 'fantastic'. Most don't believe that I presume. But everyone expects us to play better than how we are at the moment which you agree with in your post. We have reached stagnation and multiple people are to blame for this and firstly the manager who is deteriorating by the day while imploding and embarrassing himself and everyone who loves this club.

 

[acnumber9]

The thing is, you look at the careers of all three of them away from United and that puts what happened with us in context. Mourinho and Van Gaal both seem to be very much yesterday’s men and Moyes is Moyes.

Yes, Mourinho did get Chelsea to a league title but that was in the context of a generally shitty standard in the PL (miles off the pace in Europe, with Leicester the title-holders the following season) That one last hurrah aside, his career was in a fairly downward trajectory, as confirmed by his horrific second season.

All in all, I’m comfortable enough with the idea our problems are as simple as hiring the wrong manager three times in a row. I don’t see the need to agonise about more systemic problems when all three of them have proven to be dreadful feck-ups at clubs other than United.

While a convincing argument can definitely be made that we’ve just picked the wrong managers and this definitely plays its part, I think there are further issues.

We have a squad full of overpriced players being paid sums way beyond their ability. That boils down to Woodward’s seeming inability to negotiate particularly well and isn’t helped by him telling anyone who will listen how much money United have to spend. This has led to players signing for United solely for the wage on offer and it doesn’t come as a huge surprise that they don’t really care whether we win or not.

He has instigated a regime seeking marketable toys which he’s happy to spend untold fortunes on but has buckled at times when it comes to signing players the manager actually wants for team reasons. Nobody will be able to convince me that the money that couldn’t be found for Perisic or a centre back wouldn’t have been found if Bale was available. We have the issue where Mourinho would clearly have got rid of Martial but wasn’t allowed to do so and we’ll have the same with Pogba. I get the frustration at potentially losing very good players but it’s having a detrimental effect on how the team performs. In that case he either backs the manager or sacks him. By doing neither we have this half arsed limbo where nobody is in charge and nobody is happy.

He compounded these failings by deciding he knew better than the manager he hired and who’s contract he extended and then decided it was a good idea to tell everyone he did it. There is absolutely nothing to stop him continuing to do that regardless of who the manager is or what patsy he employs to be director of Football. Those things go beyond choosing the wrong manager.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

You don't have to accept a lot, most of these players have been badly evaluated, they didn't regress they were just not good enough from the beginning or not the ideal purchases. Some players weren't the finished product but expected to hit the ground running, others were average players with little added value, others probably have bad attitude either way it's the job of the managing staff to identify the correct players, players don't purchase themselves.

You are retrofitting the issues there though. yes most had one of the issues mentioned but they have all looked worse in a red shirt than in their previous guises with other clubs. When that happens to literally every signing made you have to look a bit deeper. The players should be better than they are. Over one or two players that don't work out I can accept that but not across £700m of players at avery stage and level of their career.

 

[SER19]

Everybody that has anything to do with the club at the moment is partially to blame. But I think as fans we are living in a hangover of fergie years where for the most part we had real professionals and the kind of guys you want to support in the team. We need to recognise that we have a nice chunk of typical modern day mercenaries who don’t seem hugely motivated by winning anything.

We happily throw shit at players at Leicester and other clubs in recent years who we accuse of downing tools to get guys like ranieri sacked but when it’s at our club we seem to throw absolutely everything at the manager to the point of just making stuff up, rather than concede it’s more complicated. It’s a lie to convince ourselves there’s a singular problem and also easy to channel anger at frustration at one person. Some people will even argue against criticising bloody Woodward if they feel it detracts from manager blame!

We saw the same with every manager post fergie. Moyes probably deserved it, but since then the profile of our players has been wrong and apathy breeds apathy.

If the level of performance given versus wolves with Ferguson back in the stand didn’t trouble you,then something is wrong. As a united fan seeing him back after nearly fecking dying gave me such an enormous rush of emotion and boost, it was widely expected the players would respond and have a bit of extra zip and effort. I couldn’t care if Louis van moyes’ corpse is the manager, what we saw that day simply cannot be put exclusively on the manager. A lot of players simply did not care or register the significance of that moment. There’s a chasm between what the club means to players and fans.