I have no illusions about a quick fix, whatever our problems, it's going to take some time to fix them.
But, do you honestly believe that our squad isn't better than what we've seen this season?
No other manager could get more out of this team?
When is it ever the players' faults?
- Thread starter Micky Targaryen
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But, do you honestly believe that our squad isn't better than what we've seen this season?
No other manager could get more out of this team?
If this was another manager some of your points might have some merit. We're talking about a guy who could start a fight in an empty room though - for the past 3 years he has bashed the players, ex-players, pundits, journalists, fans and club hierarchy. And he has previous of doing so at other clubs, where he also underachieved. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
You reap what you sow, basically.
You reap what you sow, basically.
That's why I also blame the coaching and management. If you sign players that aren't that good and you also don't coach them particularly well, you are not going to see them elevate their game, they will most likely look worse. I'm not retrofitting anything here, I'm telling you that here isn't a one fit all answer, we are witnessing a combination of bad choices from the manager, the board and the players.
It's also wrong to say that every single one of them regressed, LVG managed to put Valencia, Smalling, Blind, Martial, Shaw and Rashford in favorable roles, he failed with other players but not everyone regressed with him. We were also more cohesive but lacked any sort of attacking edge outside of Martial and Rashford which was our problem.
Not more than what we have seen last season imho. Second/third is the best we can achieve with the current squad.
Very good midfield and GK, rubbish defense and extremely overrated attack.
I think those are all fair comments. It's definitely possible that Woodward has made Mourinho's job harder, even though a lot of what you're assuming is fairly speculative.
At the end of the day, though, every manager has to cope with scenarios where he can't sign the player he wants, for whatever reason. Guardiola got gazumped for Sanchez and Jorginho (as well as Fred?) That could easily be spun as a good manager having his plans wrecked by a dithering/incompetent board but that's not happening because the team isn't playing like complete strangers.
Similarly, if Liverpool had failed to qualify for the CL this season questions could be asked about why he wait until January to sign Van Dijk, or a whole extra season to sign Keita. Plus there was the whole Fekir fiasco. In fact, Liverpool is a great example of club where everyone was convinced that the club had deep systemic problems that meant no manager could ever bring them any kind of success (remember how much we enjoyed the tough time Klopp had adapting to their transfer committee?) Then lo and behold, a top quality manager builds a great team by adding gems already at the club, or players that don't cost a bomb alongside the big bucks signings and - crucially - getting them all to believe in his vision of how to play football.
Or how about Arsenal? A club that became the poster boy for a board that didn't give a feck about winning stuff, so long as the money kept rolling on. Compounded by the upheaval of getting rid of a manager almost as ever present as SAF. Everyone assumed they were guaranteed to go into a tail-spin. They sign a manager who seems to know what he's doing and, lo and behold, pull together an opening string of results better than anything any three or Fergie's succesors have managed.
And let's not forget what's happening/happened at Chelsea/Spurs, both of whom have a reputation for pissing managers off (including none other than Mourinho himself) when it comes to their dealings in the transfer market.
Surely all of the above tells us that, with the right manager, we should be doing much better than we are, even if life under Woodward et al isn't absolutely perfect?
It’s fine for clubs to not get the players they want but there are varying degrees as to how or why those things happen. I was one of he few not pissing my pants in the summer because we hadn’t signed everyone by the end of June. The problem is not failing to get players, it’s apparently deciding not to try.
In the example of Man City it’s clear they wanted a new midfielder but couldn’t get one. It happens but their need wasn’t as great as United’s was so therefore it’s easier to just get on with it.
Liverpool got the players in the positions they needed and Chelsea got what they needed. None of these clubs to my knowledge have had their chief executive tell the press that they know better than their own manager. I’d also say that while finishing second and winning Europa the year before isn’t anything to write eulogies about I’d say it’s more than Emery has done. I’m also not sure Chelsea can be used as a good example when they will almost certainly follow the pattern they always do. Give it a go for one season and then give up.
None of these things are me claiming Mourinho hasn’t made massive mistakes when he clearly has. It’s about whether there are underlying concerns that aren’t fixed by his sacking and I’d say there are. Even if you want to break it down to the ability of the man when it comes to choosing managers. Having a new manager isn’t going to inherently change our recruitment policy.
I said every SIGNING regressed. Valencia, Smalling and Rashford weren't signed by the managers since 2013. Martial isn't getting a game and Shaw made 9 decent appearances in his United career up until this season. Blind is away and was rarely a first choice player, his career at the club wont be remembered. The point is we have spent £700m across 3 managers and really seem to have little to show for it. Of course everyone is to blame but its hard to blame players when there have been so many failures but its also hard to blame managers and coaches when there have been 3 different ones there too. Looking forward Im not sure what changes or what gives us the best chance of success because of the variety of different failure over the last 5 years.
Re: the point on Lukaku. If Lukaku keeps impressing in training, surely that's reason enough to start him. Everyone knows the quality Lukaku has in him. But the manager can't guarantee for sure that he will perform in real matches. That's where the player's mental aspects come into play. The manager can only give so much encouragement off the pitch and during training, but on the pitch it's surely up to the player already. Whether or not Lukaku is mentally strong and has the composure to perform and score, is solely up to him. I just sometimes feel it's unfair that the manager gets a huge share of the blame if a player underperforms on the pitch repeatedly.
Re: the Roy Keane point. I think it's unfair to compare SAF's reign to Jose's. Look, SAF was a god and he has full reign. He can sell players at his will. If any players undermines him, no doubt the player will be gone. Even Beckham has left, despite his marketability. That was at a pre-Woodward era, where the club did not put such a big focus on marketing and sponsors. And we look at where we are now. Let's say if Pogba undermines Jose, do you think Ed would let Jose sell off Pogba? It's a bit more political and complicated now compared to the good old Fergie days, so I feel it's unfair to compare any of the current managerial reigns to Fergie's.
I don't get your point here. I didn't blame players and I didn't suggest that you should, I simply explained that there are ways to explain why our signings haven't been good, it starts with signing the wrong managers who identified the wrong players and didn't coach them well, these managers are the responsibility of the board who hired them based on flawed criteria, none of them were on the up. And then you have the general point that transfers are often not successful.
It's not hard to blame managers you just have to look at where Moyes and LVG currently are and why Mourinho was available. If you sign the wrong manager and give him the power to buy almost all the players that he wants then you better pray that he does a good job otherwise you are screwed that's why most football clubs don't have that set up.
I agree, while I think Jose is definitely not blameless and the players are certainly better than what we've seen recently. And board issues come into it too.
I respect your points but don't agree:
If Lukaku's problem is psycological and repeats itself on matchdays when he fecks up missing easy chances, then that must be addressed by the coaching staff, who Mourinho is in charge of.
Re the Pogba situation: If it was just about Pogba being a diva, for example, I'm sure Mourinho would get the backing from higher up or even from other players. However the problem seems to have spread which puts the onus on the manager and his methods.
The players obviously have to take some responsibility but you only have to look at Chelsea the last time Mourinho left to see that he's quite clearly a majority of the problem. The season after Conte won it didn't he? And even again with Chelsea, Conte gone and Sarri in and they look like a completely new team again.
If the whole team we’re playing well and one or two are consistently playing bad then that’s obviously mostly on those specific players.
When the majority of the team is consistently playing bad then that’s obviously mostly on the manager.
If the team is consistently getting results and you have for example one or two bad performances out of 10 then that’s just a one off.
When we’re consistently performing badly like 8 games out of 10 then that’s clearly the manager.
Players obviously take some responsibility but when I see Mourinho can’t get the best out of a lot of our talented players then IMO that’s not a coincidence.
When the majority of the team is consistently playing bad then that’s obviously mostly on the manager.
If the team is consistently getting results and you have for example one or two bad performances out of 10 then that’s just a one off.
When we’re consistently performing badly like 8 games out of 10 then that’s clearly the manager.
Players obviously take some responsibility but when I see Mourinho can’t get the best out of a lot of our talented players then IMO that’s not a coincidence.
When it's an individual player, then fair enough, but when the whole team are under performing, then that's down to the manager
Is there a manager out there you consider having no red flags?
We have been saying the same since Moyes.
I’d say there’s heaps with much less blatant red flags than our last three managers.
When it comes to finding our next manager it would seem sensible to discard any cv’s sent in from managers who meet any of the following criteria a) haven’t won a single trophy in over a decade managing a top flight team b) hasn’t managed a top flight team for the previous 3 years c) was sacked from his last job after dragging one of the strongest teams in the country down to 16th place in the league after 16 games. And those are just the objective, black and white, reasons not to hire someone. It's probably also a good idea to avoid hiring anyone with a reputation for playing extremely conservative, boring football, spectacular fall-outs with players and/or the board and an obvious blind spot when it comes to developing talented youngsters.
Now I'm far from being an expert on football managers but I'd like to think there's a decent number of managers out there who might fit the bill without ticking any of the above boxes.
I think the word fault is problematic. Obviously many people can be at fault.
But only one person gets paid to be 'responsible'.
At the end of the day, Mourinho is paid to be the manager. He has power over the players. He has control over them to a certain degree.
The buck stops with the manager whether players are letting him down or not. That's part of being a manager, motivating and getting the players on side. That's why they're paid big money.
And yes, that also means that Woodward should be responsible for hiring two managers in a row that have ultimately failed to meet targets/expectations.
But only one person gets paid to be 'responsible'.
At the end of the day, Mourinho is paid to be the manager. He has power over the players. He has control over them to a certain degree.
The buck stops with the manager whether players are letting him down or not. That's part of being a manager, motivating and getting the players on side. That's why they're paid big money.
And yes, that also means that Woodward should be responsible for hiring two managers in a row that have ultimately failed to meet targets/expectations.
I'm no expert either and my knowledge of managers outside of the much trumpeted names is extremely limited. Pochettino wouldn't fit that bill as he's won nothing, the young up and coming managers have obviously not got the experience you specify and most if not all of the rest are currently engaged with their own clubs. Zidane is the only one who may fit that criteria. Unless we're biding our time and trying to poach a manager from his job in the summer, like a Simeone who plays counter attacking football.
I remember picking up on Jose's 'it was one of my biggest achievements to finish second with THIS team' comment and being alarmed at his words but people told me 'he's just being sarcastic towards the media, he doesn't mean it'. The thing that really annoys me though is that he bought a lot of these players and we couldn't shift some of the players that have been here too long. I genuinely feel that a lot of these players are nowhere near the level we should be aiming for and I do sympathise with Jose in that respect however, the point stands that HE brought in two centre backs that have been largely crap/inconsistent so far. He bought Mkhitaryan and Pogba and couldn't get the best out of them.
Can anyone pick out the duds among Jose's big purchases at his former clubs and how does that add up against his successes? To my mind his record is more hit than miss. Sadly for us it seems as if all his buys have been negatives for us so far and surely he has to take the blame for that.
Can anyone pick out the duds among Jose's big purchases at his former clubs and how does that add up against his successes? To my mind his record is more hit than miss. Sadly for us it seems as if all his buys have been negatives for us so far and surely he has to take the blame for that.
He's only been a manager for 8 years. Moyes went 11 years at Everton without a trophy, and is currently in his 20th trophyless year as a manager. So that's not really a fair comparison. I think Poch is a risk but nowhere near as big a risk as Moyes, especially when you consider how well Spurs have been playing in recent years (stark contrast to Everton in Moyes' last few years) After him, I get a bit stuck. Purely through my own lack of knowledge. Jardim maybe? Feck knows. There must be someone out there who looks like a decent fit on paper because none of our last three managers did, that's for sure!
I don't disagree with you with the appointment of Moyes or van Gaal. They were the wrong appointments. I'm still on the fence with Jose. He did improve our standing, our results, got some trophies and had players like de Gea talk about him as a winner.
I'm just curious who reasonable people want to see come into the job.
I’d probably opt for Pochettino personally. The fact that he hasn’t won a trophy doesn’t bother me particularly. If he went on and won some shite like the Carabao Cup my opinion of him wouldn’t change in the slightest. Considering he’s often 4th or maybe 5th favourite to win the Premier League every season, i don’t think the fact that he hasn’t won it is that egregious. I understand people’s reservation about him, and that’s fine, but it truly doesn’t bother me.
The fact that he’s turned Spurs into a team where you now expect them to go on and win trophies is some achievement, especially when you consider the discrepancy in expenditure between them and the rest of the top 4/5. I like the intensity in which his teams play, i like the style and he seems like a decent bloke. Can’t see him leaving Spurs in the middle of the season, but i do think we could get him in the summer.
The fact that he’s turned Spurs into a team where you now expect them to go on and win trophies is some achievement, especially when you consider the discrepancy in expenditure between them and the rest of the top 4/5. I like the intensity in which his teams play, i like the style and he seems like a decent bloke. Can’t see him leaving Spurs in the middle of the season, but i do think we could get him in the summer.
If team is playing below the sum of their parts= Manager's fault
A single player not playing well= Players' fault
If a single player is playing well for Nation but not for club= Manager does not know how to use the player
If team is playing well but poor finishing= Player's fault/ luck problems
If team has no idea how to attack= Manager's fault
If team conceding similar goals= Manager's fault
Let's be honest here, no one blamed Mou when we were not winning in the 1st season- we were unlucky, hell many of us even praised the style of play. We criticized forwards for not being clinical enough. We blamed Mkhi for being shite, we blamed Alexis when he is shite but losses vs poor teams consistently highlight that we don't know how to unlock defences of teams that are deeper and that is on manager. Consistently conceding goals from set pieces highlights that we arent addressing our issues and that is on manager
A single player not playing well= Players' fault
If a single player is playing well for Nation but not for club= Manager does not know how to use the player
If team is playing well but poor finishing= Player's fault/ luck problems
If team has no idea how to attack= Manager's fault
If team conceding similar goals= Manager's fault
Let's be honest here, no one blamed Mou when we were not winning in the 1st season- we were unlucky, hell many of us even praised the style of play. We criticized forwards for not being clinical enough. We blamed Mkhi for being shite, we blamed Alexis when he is shite but losses vs poor teams consistently highlight that we don't know how to unlock defences of teams that are deeper and that is on manager. Consistently conceding goals from set pieces highlights that we arent addressing our issues and that is on manager
I guess we are on the same page regarding the squad then: it's good enough. It's Jose who cannot seem to get the best of them. Time for him to go.
The players aren't innocent.
But if we have spent two years playing a poor style of football that can't get the best out of most of our best players, a number of players being treated unfairly compared to their game performances (whether better or worse than what they deserve), a number of players being publicly called out by the manager (once again, sometimes unfairly), transfer buys which so far seem to mostly not working out, and we don't seem to be improving at any of those aspects...and on top of all that the manager has a history of the exact same thing happening at their previous clubs? In the case of all that, that comes back on the manager most of all.
But if we have spent two years playing a poor style of football that can't get the best out of most of our best players, a number of players being treated unfairly compared to their game performances (whether better or worse than what they deserve), a number of players being publicly called out by the manager (once again, sometimes unfairly), transfer buys which so far seem to mostly not working out, and we don't seem to be improving at any of those aspects...and on top of all that the manager has a history of the exact same thing happening at their previous clubs? In the case of all that, that comes back on the manager most of all.
Similar to the above, if you see a shoddy performance in the middle of a sequence of good games you can blame the players. We've had 2 years of shite and seen the players perform for their national sides
'This squad will start performing once the new manager comes in and that will prove that it really was the manager.'
I promise you that players will be slated left and right on the media for 'letting the manager down if they had such performances in them'.
At least that's what happened at Chelsea with Gary, Jamie, Shearer and slew of TV pundits called players out for downing tools for Mou when we started winning with Conte.
I promise you that players will be slated left and right on the media for 'letting the manager down if they had such performances in them'.
At least that's what happened at Chelsea with Gary, Jamie, Shearer and slew of TV pundits called players out for downing tools for Mou when we started winning with Conte.
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When is it Woodward's fault? He and his team handle recruitment and have been able to pass blame quite successfully to three managers now. LVG and Mourinho came with incredible reputations... how many casualties must there be before there's a fundamental change in the way things are run?
Btw, not actually pinning all post-SAF trauma on Woodward... just asking the question.
Btw, not actually pinning all post-SAF trauma on Woodward... just asking the question.
For me I blame Woddward:
1. He hired a manager ill fitted to completing rebuilds, 2 years into a rebuilding job
2. He has never supported the manager to engage in the type of clear out that would have sorted put our squad holes.
3. The only thing I blame Mourinho for is losing the dressing room which manifests in lifeless performances.
Apart from that, this squad wont get much better under any other currently manager. The right flank is absolutely dead attacking wise, thus you cant ever play winning nor comisistently attractive football with one flank. We have an over abundance of 10's and strikers and no natural winger. Worst of all our mist experienced center backs like Jones, injury prone Rojo and Smalling have no business being the ones kept around to mentor the hugh end talents of Baillu, Lindeloff and Tuanzebe who will fail to achieve their potential if surrounded by the wrong mentors.
And no one can lie JM caused that to happen to the squad. It was all Woodward and his awfull recruitment since he arrived with Moyes. Since that first Moyes window, we've been playing catch up in the market.
Till we remove Woodward from football operations. No manager barring Sir Alex himself will suceed here .
1. He hired a manager ill fitted to completing rebuilds, 2 years into a rebuilding job
2. He has never supported the manager to engage in the type of clear out that would have sorted put our squad holes.
3. The only thing I blame Mourinho for is losing the dressing room which manifests in lifeless performances.
Apart from that, this squad wont get much better under any other currently manager. The right flank is absolutely dead attacking wise, thus you cant ever play winning nor comisistently attractive football with one flank. We have an over abundance of 10's and strikers and no natural winger. Worst of all our mist experienced center backs like Jones, injury prone Rojo and Smalling have no business being the ones kept around to mentor the hugh end talents of Baillu, Lindeloff and Tuanzebe who will fail to achieve their potential if surrounded by the wrong mentors.
And no one can lie JM caused that to happen to the squad. It was all Woodward and his awfull recruitment since he arrived with Moyes. Since that first Moyes window, we've been playing catch up in the market.
Till we remove Woodward from football operations. No manager barring Sir Alex himself will suceed here .
If it were as simple as your scenarios then of course it would be the individual players fault. The fact that it is virtually the whole team playing badly, and the toxic atmosphere is being brought about by the manager slagging them off publicly, with a lot of the players bought or renewed their contract under him, also regressing instead of improving, can only lead to one common denominator.
Havent Chelsea equalled Utd in trophies since the Abromovic era? They have had how many managers since then? Your argument doesnt hold up
You only have to look at the arguments in this thread to see how simplistic people's thinking on this subject is. I despair at times that people think criticising players is an excuse for the manager.
If you watch our games you can see the mistakes, the poor decisions, the lack of energy. These things are on the player, it doesn't matter if its 2 or 5. You can obviously also see all the tactical mistakes we're making that are on the manager.
Lukaku, Sanchez, Matic, Valencia, Bailey are mostly failing at the individual level.
I do agree with Minimalist that there's a seperation of fault and responsibility though. No matter who is at fault on the day, the manager needs to find a solution and this season he isn't.
If you watch our games you can see the mistakes, the poor decisions, the lack of energy. These things are on the player, it doesn't matter if its 2 or 5. You can obviously also see all the tactical mistakes we're making that are on the manager.
Lukaku, Sanchez, Matic, Valencia, Bailey are mostly failing at the individual level.
I do agree with Minimalist that there's a seperation of fault and responsibility though. No matter who is at fault on the day, the manager needs to find a solution and this season he isn't.
Yes that is the point I'm trying to get at. When we actually watch a game, and you see our players reacting so slowly on the counter, or when they failed to execute a simple through pass, or when they dribble too much and lose the ball, or when our defenders are caught ball watching, it is just so frustrating to see. I simply refuse to believe that these costly mistakes are down to Mourinho and his tactics. It's these mistakes that we as fans can observe, so I'm pretty sure Jose is aware of that too. I like to believe that he has pointed out the mistakes to the players in order not to repeat them, but it's up to the players to respond on the pitch.
We don't have a best 11, that's the problem. There was never a time during Jose's reign when even us here on the forum could agree on what it is.
I agree, and that is concerning. Especially with Jose, who has made a career of having an established first team, often playing the same 11 in many consecutive games, and especially so with an established back four. Several transfer windows in, he should have been able to cement that by now. He brought in enough of his own players to do that. He looks no closer to settling on a best 11, or even a best back four, than he did when he took over from Van Gaal. His lack of a plan and a vision for where this team is heading is a major concern.
the rotten apple syndrome...
We don't even have consistent center back pairing let alone best 11, I honestly can't remember a top team where the 2 center backs changes constantly each game, it is honestly mind-boggling.
I think another perspective on this, is that people take a dislike to those who shun any responsibility. With Mourinho, we play badly most of the time currently and he will blame anyone for the poor form bar himself. However, when we are playing well he will happily take the plaudits and responsibility.
I honestly think we wouldn't be in this mess if after the first loss he had taken responsibility publicly, and taken the pressure off the players, it would have made it easier for the players to bounce back. Another effect is it may help keep their motivation higher, may have them chasing the ball etc. When your manager says its all your fault, it makes that next game that much more difficult.
I'll be interested to see Liverpool's next result for example, after the loss to Napoli last night Klopp has taken the blame and taken the pressure off his players. If they lose again I'll be proven completely wrong of course …
I honestly think we wouldn't be in this mess if after the first loss he had taken responsibility publicly, and taken the pressure off the players, it would have made it easier for the players to bounce back. Another effect is it may help keep their motivation higher, may have them chasing the ball etc. When your manager says its all your fault, it makes that next game that much more difficult.
I'll be interested to see Liverpool's next result for example, after the loss to Napoli last night Klopp has taken the blame and taken the pressure off his players. If they lose again I'll be proven completely wrong of course …
Personally I think any player can have a dip in form or even have difficulty adjusting to a certain style of play or tactics but that must improve with time and game time. When you have several players under performing and regressing over time instead of improving then it is the manager.