When The Winning Stops - What Then?

TomClare

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“Sing when you’re winning, you only sing when you’re winning………” How pertinent that little ditty is today, and especially when aimed at a certain number of Manchester United fans. Here we are, as I write this, top of the Premiership by six points, into the knock out stages of the European Champions League, and also into the Fifth Round of the F.A. Cup. 75,000 fans plus, inside the stadium for each home game – life couldn’t be rosier, or the future more brighter - or so it would seem.

Talk to a lot of United fans these days and they are only interested in what is going on out on the pitch. The good name of the Club, its history, the way it conducts itself, the albatross of debt that hangs around its neck does not seem to bother them too much. “We can’t live in the past and worry about things like that. It’s today that matters!” The Glazers? “Nothing to worry about there mate, they’ve done nothing wrong so far”. The debt? “What debt? It’s not impacted the Club as yet, so what’s there to worry about? They’re managing the interest payments quite comfortably, it’s not our concern really” I’m sure we could all tell tales of similar conversations that we have had with friends, colleagues, and other fans throughout this season? Frustrating? You bet your sweet Fanny Adams it is.

My own take on the situation is that the terrific success that Manchester United experienced during the 1990’s, and on into the early years of this century, has helped breed a new type of fan. Today, we have a whole generation that have never known anything other than success. Even though the Premiership title has not been won since the 2002/2003 season, United have been moderately successful, challenging almost each year since, and in the domestic Cup competitions have also seen some success, winning two Finals, and losing another. There is now a kind of “blind allegiance” or to put it more simply, “blind loyalty,” especially with the younger fans, to everything that is Manchester United. So they sing whilst they are winning.

“Blind Allegiance” or “blind loyalty”, is, in my honest opinion, a very dangerous road down which to travel. For United fans, it provides a fixative to the current regime, and also to their “lackey” based at Old Trafford, who does their bidding for them. It saddens me so much to have to admit to this, but the Glazer family have achieved part of one of their objectives already, and that is “to divide and conquer” the fan base. For me, this was done all too easily, as it set Red against Red, which is something that I honestly thought that I would never ever see during my lifetime. Divided it, they most certainly have – conquered it – that has yet to be seen.

Certainly, this “allegiance/loyalty” has been fuelled by misinformation and spin that we have seen since May 12th 2005. Everything that has spun out of Florida, and Old Trafford, has been treated as “the gospel”. Unfortunately in this day and age, a large number of United fans tend not to look at things in any depth, and don’t think enough to scratch below the surface layer, before forming a measured, structured, opinion . “They must be doing something right – the stadium is full every week, the team is top of the League – what more do you want? We just want to go to the game, support the team, and to hell with the politics in the Club?” How often do we hear this? Too regular for my liking. And so they sing whilst they’re winning.

But can any of them honestly, with their hand on heart, please tell me, or show to me, one single, tangible, good thing, that the Glazer’s have done for Manchester United since their arrival in May of 2005? Because if they can, then I have missed something somewhere along the line, and I must need to go and consult with my optician. I have honestly searched around to see if there is anything that the Glazer’s can be credited with during their tenure which that has been done for the good of Manchester United – I still can’t find a single thing! Still, I suppose I could sing whilst they’re winning?

But have these people who share this “blind allegiance/loyalty” really given any deep thought as to what happens when the winning ceases? The majority of us know that success is not for ever. It’s so sweet when it arrives, and yes, it’s there to be enjoyed. When you have a long period of prolonged success, it tastes even sweeter, especially after years of comparative famine. But it can become an albatross around the neck in that we see a new breed, a different kind of fan emerging - fans who are only concerned with “success” and “winning”, and that is all that matters, to them and to hell with everything else.

They are not even interested in the changes that are going on in the game at present, and that have gone on during the past, especially since the advent of the Premiership. They share a common selfishness. In my honest opinion, the game in England is heading fast towards a huge abyss in the years to come, and if things are not addressed in the near future, it may well be that football as we have known and loved it throughout its history, will be lost and gone forever. In this past week or so, we hear of another 900 million pounds being pumped into the Premiership from t.v. contracts – not a peep from anybody about the obscenity of it, and the impact that it will have on grass roots football. The elite get to dine at the top table every year, and the rest can like it or lump it and dine off the scraps, and look on helplessly as the gap grows even wider between the Premiership and lower divisions. Will that extra revenue flow unabatedly back into the game? Will it heck as like! Players salaries will be increased, agent’s fees will increase, transfer fees will get even more inflated, ticket prices will keep on increasing, and of course, the “suits,” with their rich pickings from their fat contracts, will be made into even bigger millionaires – and of course at United, the vast majority of it will go to servicing the debt. For a large number of United fans, it won’t matter one iota what happens to that extra revenue increase. We have seen during the past 19 months that there is little revenue for investment in top quality players. Gill said just recently that there are no further plans at this time to invest in the stadium and facilities. The spin will still come spiraling out of both Florida and Old Trafford, and we’ll be told that all is well again, and that United couldn’t be in better shape. And all the time, the fans will still sing whilst we’re winning – and the money comes rolling in – and out just as fast!

Fans are blinded by success, there’s no doubt about that. This season United have as realistic a chance as they have had for the last three years to lift the Premiership title again, and maybe even the European Champions Cup, and maybe, just maybe, even the F.A. Cup – a second, unique treble. I don’t think that there is one single United fan who would not like to see this happen. Winning the Premiership again would suffice for most, winning two trophies would be wonderful, and to do the treble again – well, it’s just another dream. Nobody who supports United, irrespective of the turmoil that the takeover has caused, especially within the fans bodies; bodes the team any ill will. We all want to see them win, and the simple reason for that is because we are all Reds. It’s this emotional attachment that we all, as fans, feel for our beloved Club, that not only the Glazer’s, but the F.A. and Premiership moguls also, are so readily, and easily, able to exploit – which is what they shamelessly do! And all the time, the fans sing along whilst we are winning!
 

TomClare

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But wait a moment – as of this minute, we don’t happen to have won anything, and between now and the end of the season, so much can happen. Football as we all know, has a habit of turning on you and kicking you in the pants. Everything has really gone United’s way so far this season. We have been fairly lucky with injuries. Chelsea has been showing signs of imploding, Arsenal and Liverpool were slow out of the blocks, and there has been no other club appear from the rest, to mount any kind of serious challenge. For all those clubs outside the top four, their main ambitions focus on finishing 4th, 5th or 6th – and avoiding relegation at all costs! Can fans really be so blind as to what the obscene amounts of money that have poured into the game since 1992 have done to the Premiership? Realistically at this moment in time, only three clubs have a chance of actually winning the title. The league is as uncompetitive as it’s ever been. The gap between the lower divisions also grows wider and wider, and the damage to the game at the lower levels will, if it already hasn’t happened, be irrepairable.

The biggest single losers since day one of the Premiership’s existence have been the fans! Their pockets have been emptied unashamedly by the piranhas that would have you believe, act on their behalf. Just look back at the main players involved in the administration of their Clubs and the game, since the advent of the Premiership, and see how well they did, or are doing; for themselves. Edwards, Scholar, Johnson, Dein, Sugar, Hall, Shepherd, Ellis, Gold, and their ilk. The jobs that it created for “the new kids on the block” - Kenyon, Scudamore, Barwick, Richards, Gill, Lowe etc; the men in “suits” who now appear in our sports pages and media outlets so regularly. Most of them, you certainly wouldn’t invite around to your home for Sunday lunch! Some of their track records in private business certainly don’t stand up to close scrutiny, and when you dig deep, the carnage and debts that they left behind, and which affected ordinary people’s lives, beggars belief. Remorse? Not a single bit of it in any way, shape or form. They just moved on to richer pickings – in football, and all the time, this was allowed to go about unchecked. A lot of those mentioned made their fortunes from the game without giving anything at all back to it, and once they had achieved this, they scuttled away with their gains. Now, we see this other new breed – “the suits” who are today, having even more of an impact in the administration of the game – many with conflicts of interests in the posts that they now hold. They didn’t enter football because of their love for it, or for the love of any one Club. They are there because they saw opportunity for a career path that would offer enormous salaries and with it, power, and a degree of “celebrity” status. Look at their backgrounds and where they came from. Were they ever interested in the game before? They may be able to read balance sheets, but football? What they really know could be written on a postage stamp. And where the fans are concerned? They are like Fifty Pence coins – seven sided and two faced! Still we can all sing whilst we’re winning.

But when will the singing stop and the whining begin? As I said earlier, there are a large number of fans today who know nothing but success. They have never experienced the feeling of being down amongst “the also rans.” One day, they will have to endure this. Football is cyclical and “success” isn’t forever. So what will this new breed of fan feel then? The Club being plunged into enormous debt doesn’t bother them. The systematic destruction of what we all loved so much – the “United Family” – doesn’t bother them. The Premiership has bred this “instant success” syndrome, and also a game with a lack of patience. The newspapers, and media fuel this ravenously. So what will happen when the winning stops? The JCL’s and Day Trippers, won’t stay around – of that I am almost certain. What will happen to the corporate side of things during these times? Has anyone ever given any thought as to what would, or could happen if the bubble bursts, as one day it surely will? Loyalty to clubs has been built up throughout the history of the game by the generations of working class fans, passing their club allegiance from generation to generation. The transformation of the game away from the working class support is cutting the new generation off from watching live football. Interest rates are rising as is inflation. What would happen then if a recession was once again to hit the country? It could lead to clubs going even deeper in debt, more and more would be put into the hands of the receivers or even go bankrupt, and this certainly includes some of the so called bigger clubs. Today there is so much emphasis put on corporate hospitality, but in the event of a recession jobs would be cut, corporate hospitality would be the first thing a company would slash, and suddenly all that revenue would be lost to the clubs. There would also be unemployment on a large scale obviously affecting the ‘bread and butter’ supporter and even more revenue from the grass roots support lost. Television revenue would also be hit. In a recession luxuries such as satellite subscriptions would again be hit on a large scale – companies such as Sky would suffer huge losses of customer revenue. The actual revenue on offer to the Premier League from television companies would be vastly reduced and that would certainly affect future deals with the Premiership. A lot of this is all hypothetical I know – but it could happen, and where would that leave the Premiership and the Clubs? You only have to look at the outcry that happens these days whenever results don’t go United’s way. Carnage on the various message boards, and a lot of it is quite vitriolic. It doesn’t bear thinking about as to what will happen when United eventually do suffer a few lean years and how that will affect the financial situation at the Club. I suppose also that telling time may also start when Sir Alex finally decides to call it a day. The singing will certainly stop and the whining will begin with a vengeance.

This last week or two I have been involved in several discussions regarding football and the way it is going, and also United’s precarious financial position, plus MUST, and its goals and aims. Unfortunately, a lot of people are very shortsighted. They cannot see for a moment, that one day, there will come a day of reckoning, both for the game that we all love so much, and for Manchester United. The Golden Goose will not lay its egg forever and some when in the future, the Premiership, in my honest opinion will implode upon itself and the fallout will be catastrophic. At Old Trafford, the debt will never ever go away and again, in my honest opinion, will keep on increasing as the owners try to service it. In my own eyes, I fervently wish and hope that United are successful for at least the next 10 years or so, because the moment that they aren’t, will see the screw start to tighten and tighten until there is no leverage left.

Football will eventually come to the crossroads. For those that aren’t worried about the game and its future, the Club and what happens within it, and just want nothing more than success – I suppose that they’ll keep on singing whilst they’re winning. But what then?
 

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Hapi

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Beautifully written article which implores you to think. Right now though United is the biggest club in the world and we have the most 'cosmopolitan' fan-base in the world but it is true that most of our foreign 'fans' are youngsters. I agree these young fans have known nothing other than success but I believe that the 'romance' of United will keep them loyal even when the chips are down.
Born in 1971, I was 'introduced' to United by a neighbour of mine. Ever since then for some inexplicable reason I started supporting United. We won next to nothing in the early years but I kept the faith. Its just something in your heart, When you see United win the league after such a long time, that makes you say "Come on you reds". And when you see a buisnessman take over your beloved club your heart does burn.
But I believe that many of the 'younger' fans you speak of were there when Glazer took over and I'll eat my hat if their heart didnt burn. I believe that the romance associated with United will keep them heathen United fans forever. ONCE A RED, ALWAYS A RED.
 

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an absolutely brilliant read tom.

very good overriding point that if success dries up it could have serious consequences with the debt repayments.

i think the indifference from a lot of fans (including myself) towards the glazers is that we just don't know what they are up to or what their plans are. their PR is absolutely abysmal and their failure to communicate with the fans/media means that we can only idly speculate on the long term fortunes of the club.
 

blythy

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Agreed. Good read.

The evidence is clear for all to see on this very forum; Speculation about possible transfers, new kits and 'what Mourinho has said this week' gets far more attention than ticket price increase, increase in debt repayments and so on.
 

crappycraperson

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It was well written but the main points were poorly argued.

1) The new age fan: Somehow in past few years, it is suggested that anybody who started following United in 90s is a lesser of a fan. Whilst it's true, that those who have followed from 70s and 80s are more to be respected. But to resort to :" You haven't seen the 80's, you know feck all" doesn't help anyone. The current generation of fan will get their chance to show how loyal they are when we go through a bad patch, even more likely now due to the Glazers. Untill that happens, it is unfair to make any generalizations about the 90's fans. To say they only sing whilst winning is wrong since they have not gotten the chance to show they can support the team while losing.

2) Fans being apathetic to Glazer/debt: 2 sets in these. Firstly, the match going ones, who can't be bothered about stuff off field and concentrate on on field things. Other, armchair ones who can't be bothered since it doesn't affect them directly. I know may match going ones whilst bemoaning the whole debt scenario, still go to matches admitting they are addicted to United to do anything else. They has accepted, they will pay Glazers as long it's in their limit. Most people follow football club to bring some sort of excitement in their life other than daily boredom. Given the choice between a downer over Glazer or excitement over treble, most opt for latter. Especially since many fans think, there is little they can do now to dislodge Glazer and they don't have enough willpower to boycott.

3) The whole point about premiership and change in football:
Nobody moaned before the Glazers came along did they? Very few protested against club turning into PLC, kudos to them, they are the ones who saw it coming. Because that's when we turned into a football club cum business. Apart from playing football, we had to generate profits and pay dividends to our shareholders. The premiership thing has happened, you can't change it. Attendances could drop and it won't burst the bubble. Why? Because TV income is the future for club owners now. Juve, Barca, Real are already cashing in. English clubs will follow soon. Look at other sports like cricket, attendances don't matter, all the money comes from TV.
 

Balboa

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stop taking the piss lads even though i can't be arsed to read all of it but i'm sure Tom has posted a brillient post because of his good reputation of posting class threads
 

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Agreed. Good read.

The evidence is clear for all to see on this very forum; Speculation about possible transfers, new kits and 'what Mourinho has said this week' gets far more attention than ticket price increase, increase in debt repayments and so on.
i think the issue of season ticket price increases doesn't hit the vast majority of the fans on the caf - seeing as though there are so many foreign fans on here.

i think its human nature for us to concern ourselves with the more trivial matters are these are the issues here and now and seem at the forefront of our hopes this season. i for one, know that it is easier to say "lets not worry about that" in relation to the problems of a massive debt because it is worrying when you do think about it. the problem is, brave rhetoric will do very little and the fans, individually and collectively, can do little to reduce the debt. IMO, boycotting the club does it nothing but harm. it's really a case of getting on with it.

as for the argument that the glazers have done nothing positive for the club. well, as far as i am concerned, they may not have, but neither did the PLC. ultimately, in the last year of the PLC, season ticket prices went up and their primary concerns were the shareholders interests and not really the fans either.
 

Frosty

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Brilliantly written piece. Unfortunately too much attention is paid to the propaganda from the Glazer camp telling everyone that everything is alright.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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hysteria and complete speculation. how about for your next piece you write about "whilst the winning continues and the debt shrinks"? It would be equally as speculative and no less informative.

Germany experienced a collapse in TV money and the Bundesliga is in fine form. The teams may not be as competitive as they once were but the stadiums are full and there are promising youth players coming through the ranks, the league and its teams are coping. Football is adaptive, like most eveything else humankind does, and should tv money dry up or revenue shrink as a club slides further down the league tables so too will the English game adapt. Manchester United is an Institution, not just a club. Any bank that may take the club as a result of the Glazer debt surely would recognize that, even if that statement is as speculative as the rest of Tom's article.
 

Crumpsall Red

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There are some people who think they have a monopoly on how to be a United fan, what you must have experienced in order to be a real fan, what you've got to think in order to truly bleed red blood, where you have got to come from to really understand what it is to be a red.


To those people I say .......


feck off you arrogant twats!
 

Shane B

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Great post Tom, I agree 100% with your sentiments, and I think some of the carefree repsonses you get to this thread will be an ironic confirmation of what it is about.
 

Uzi

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money is increasing
our lowest attendance sthis season was 65,000, rooney and roon ae on LT contracts, we have a brilliant crop of kiddies coming through along with the best of the old boys network (i mean giggsy at 33 runs like he's flippin 13!!!) multi talented multi award winning stellar star squad.

debt, hmm, well, i think 3m a home game in profits (i think profits) should be adequate enough to cover that. Also no one gets them selvs into almost 800m gbp of debt without knowing what they are doing... come one now, who honeslt ythinks the glazers will let man utd fail? My personal opinion is that we are better run in our current situation as opposed to us as a plc. Secret soundings rather than notifications to the bloody stock exchange...

the worst has happened for us as pls. too beurocratic and too much money tied up in assets. glazers freed up a lot of the cash and are progressing to make us efficiently run, business like per se.

i prefer man utd as we are now than we were as a plc
 

fredthered

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That article is spot on...

In fact its the most truthful and honest appraisal of the situation I have seen yet.

That post should be made a sticky and left there to remind people of what is truly happening underneath the surface.
 

fredthered

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money is increasing
our lowest attendance sthis season was 65,000, rooney and roon ae on LT contracts, we have a brilliant crop of kiddies coming through along with the best of the old boys network (i mean giggsy at 33 runs like he's flippin 13!!!) multi talented multi award winning stellar star squad.

debt, hmm, well, i think 3m a home game in profits (i think profits) should be adequate enough to cover that. Also no one gets them selvs into almost 800m gbp of debt without knowing what they are doing... come one now, who honeslt ythinks the glazers will let man utd fail? My personal opinion is that we are better run in our current situation as opposed to us as a plc. Secret soundings rather than notifications to the bloody stock exchange...

the worst has happened for us as pls. too beurocratic and too much money tied up in assets. glazers freed up a lot of the cash and are progressing to make us efficiently run, business like per se.

i prefer man utd as we are now than we were as a plc
So what differences are there now that werent there under the PLC. Things you can substantiate with proven facts or figures ?

SHow us all how we are better off now than under the PLC....
 

Shane B

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crappycraperson said:
1) The new age fan: Somehow in past few years, it is suggested that anybody who started following United in 90s is a lesser of a fan. Whilst it's true, that those who have followed from 70s and 80s are more to be respected. But to resort to :" You haven't seen the 80's, you know feck all" doesn't help anyone. The current generation of fan will get their chance to show how loyal they are when we go through a bad patch, even more likely now due to the Glazers. Untill that happens, it is unfair to make any generalizations about the 90's fans. To say they only sing whilst winning is wrong since they have not gotten the chance to show they can support the team while losing..
Have you took a look around at OT at the type of fan who is there? I am not necessarily picking on the young generation, but the fan in general...
I have been going since the early 80s and I have seen lifelong reds being forced out and replaced by people who wouldn't have dreamt of watching football until Sky Sports and the media circus made it a trendy and corperate night out.
Trust me Crappy... take the silverware away, and those fans will leave too.

crappycraperson said:
2) Fans being apathetic to Glazer/debt: 2 sets in these. Firstly, the match going ones, who can't be bothered about stuff off field and concentrate on on field things. Other, armchair ones who can't be bothered since it doesn't affect them directly. Most people follow football club to bring some sort of excitement in their life other than daily boredom. Given the choice between a downer over Glazer or excitement over treble, most opt for latter. Especially since many fans think, there is little they can do now to dislodge Glazer and they don't have enough willpower to boycott, this is true of many who despise Glazer..
The sentence in bold is what makes me especially sad.
Some people treat a trip to OT like a trip to the theatre, it was never like that, it is fecking horrible... United are not a form of entertainment to me, they are not a good day out... United is my club and my religion.

crappycraperson said:
3) The whole point about premiership and change in football:
Nobody moaned before the Glazers came along did they? Very few protested against club turning into PLC, kudos to them, they are the ones who saw it coming. Because that's when we turned into a football club cum business. Apart from playing football, we had to generate profits and pay dividends to our shareholders. The premiership thing has happened, you can't change it. Attendances could drop and it won't burst the bubble. Why? Because TV income is the future for club owners now. Juve, Barca, Real are already cashing in. English clubs will follow soon. Look at other sports like cricket, attendances don't matter, all the money comes from TV.
To say that attendances don't matter is naive. Let's calculate a home game as being £35 and multiply it by 76,000.... that is £2.5m per game... without taking into consideration the additional revenue for the odd hotdog here and there....
Also to compare a footballe'rs wage to a cricketer's wage is being really silly... our wage bill alone is more than £1m pw... do you think Sky will cover that?
 

benst86

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So what differences are there now that werent there under the PLC. Things you can substantiate with proven facts or figures ?

SHow us all how we are better off now than under the PLC....
PLC's and football clubs were never going to last, hence virtually everyone of them lasting under 20 years, those are the facts Fred. I could go into reasons for this...but I'm not going to because I've spent the last 3 months of my life researching it for my dissertation, and quite frankly never want to see the words "Manchester United" and "business" in the same sentence again.

:D

Not to patronise, but there are literally hundreds of academic journals, surveys and books on football economics if you want to read into this. These debates aren't for the fans because we hold no sway.
 

Chapster

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whilst I don't see what the glazers have done, they haven't turned united into the train wreck everyone was predicting

and as said, you don't get yourself into debt if you don't know what you are doing
at least, you don't get as rich as the glazers if you had no clue
 

Shane B

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whilst I don't see what the glazers have done, they haven't turned united into the train wreck everyone was predicting

and as said, you don't get yourself into debt if you don't know what you are doing
at least, you don't get as rich as the glazers if you had no clue
Have you never heard of Millionaires overspeculating and going bust?
 

Johnno

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nonsence, pure nonsence. Written by a militant Glazer-hating lesbian with obvious self-loathing issues.
We only sing when we're winning do we? Strange, I remember as a ten year old lad getting a hammering at Anfield and when we were 4-0 down, the United fans were singing 'We'll support you ever more'. That was September 1990. We also had on average up to 1992 for 28 out of thirty years up until when OT was redeveloped during the 1992-93 season the highest average attendance in England, including the season we spent in Division Two. Everyone goes on about United's prawn-sandwich brigade and fickle fans whilst nothing is said for the other team's Dolce & Gabbana, Stone Island wearing fans.
 

Johnno

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You're living proof that Snow White and Dopey had a son.
So you're calling all United fans as hypocrites then? What are you trying to get at? When I watch United and feel like a bit of a song, whether they're winning, drawing, losing or whatever, does that make me one of the band wagoners? You ramblings in the thread are superbly written with a fine number of superlatives but you don't exactly state anything and have no evidence for your statement that United are in decline - if that's even what you're trying to say, because I don't think anyone, including yourself, know what your point is mate, the only thing you had going for you is your sledging of the Glazers which was bound to win you a few numpties to agree with you. The past few years, I've never been more of a United supporter than when I was a kid, probably due to long lost passions stirred due to the apparent lack of success as opposed to previous seasons, but then again I feel I am more and more in love with United this season due to the way they're playing, you cannot fault people if they look at the way we're playing and decide they want to be United fans, this is the exact reason many from outside Manchester began to support us in the fifties and sixties because of our style of football, not because we've won anything which we haven't yet.
 

Bearded but no genius

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Do you expect us to not talk about the football and just sit around and ponder shit we have no idea about whilst lamenting the good old days when capitalism was nowhere to be seen?

Yes Glazer is a problem.

But the football is the whole fecking point of the club.

You seem to be claiming anyone paying attention to that is beyond your contempt.
 

Johnno

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Pay no attention, they seem to think that by discussing the evil deeds of Glazer that makes them United afficionadoes of uncomparabale levels to the the weak mass who watch the games
 

dmode

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Good read... too long... took me 20 mins to figure out everything... oh and i can't afford spending 20 mins to read one thread... please summarise next time...
 

Transfer United Till I Die

I am totally in the know, honest
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Do you expect us to not talk about the football and just sit around and ponder shit we have no idea about whilst lamenting the good old days when capitalism was nowhere to be seen?

Yes Glazer is a problem.

But the football is the whole fecking point of the club.

You seem to be claiming anyone paying attention to that is beyond your contempt.
Exactly. The place where all these fervent anti-Glazer types fall down is that they tar anyone who doesn't agree with them completely with the same brush - that of being an inbecilic sheep. There are plenty of very intelligent United fans who have assessed the situation and decided to take a different line. Their viewpoint is just as relevant as yours.
 

fredthered

I want Peter Kenyon back
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whilst I don't see what the glazers have done, they haven't turned united into the train wreck everyone was predicting

and as said, you don't get yourself into debt if you don't know what you are doing
at least, you don't get as rich as the glazers if you had no clue
So millionaires dont ever go bankrupt eh ?