Who made you more stoic about hot prospects?

Back in the day, I though Ben Thornley was going to be top class. Then when we saw that Sky Sports video of Forlan I thought, "wow, look at this guy". Then when he played it was more like "wtf is this guy?". Think Forlan was the one who really made me realise that you always have to temper your expectations of young players and give them time to grow.

Obviously you also have some extreme examples like Sancho and Greenwood who've probably dicked up their whole careers by being absolute idiots off the pitch.

In general I think every few years you have aa player who is tipped to be the next big generational talent and then all of a sudden the potential just seems to disappear and you end up with what could have been. But, in real terms they've done more than 99.9% of footballers will ever do.

Off the top of my head, here's a few who were touted as being world class stars but they just dropped off into oblivion.

Denilson
Jeremy Menez
Gui Assulin
Drenthe
Rodwell
Saviola
Bojan
Pato
Bojinov
Mutu
Mastour
Balotelli
Giovinco
 
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NZT-One said:
Yeah, that is my take as well. I think, for young players their breakout season should be seen in a certain way. Because when they come into the team, them being an unknown quantity, maybe underestimated, certainly opponents not being prepared to deal with them, plays a huge factor in their early success. And this is not me wanting to take something away from for example Januzaj, Greenwood or now Garnacho - it requires a certain level of talent and the right attitude to have a great breakout. But there comes a time, when opponents will be prepared for their tendencies, for their strength and weaknesses. They setup their teams to kill strength, emphasize weaknesses. Also some youth players gain their reputation due to being superior to their U21 counterparts due to their physicality, this also fades as soon as the highest level is reached. It requires a lot for a young player to stay in the game, reinvent to a degree. It is really rare for a reason.

I think, Götze is a great shout. He really faded away... From a United perspective, I think it were Tosic, Powells, Will Keanes and Ravels stories, that made me realise, that standing out in the youth leagues is a nice thing to have but it means very little... Latest example being Ethan Laird.
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Exactly. There is a huge difference between the levels. That’s why I always tell people to calm down when they are talking about unproven kids being the saviours. Example, Mainoo, barely kicked a ball for the first team yet completely overhyped already. Based on what?
 
Oranges038 said:
I think every few years you have this player who is tipped to be the next big generational talent and then all of a sudden the potential just seems to disappear and you end up with what could have been. But, in real terms they've done more than 99.9% of footballers will ever do.

Off the top of my head, here's a few.

Denilson
Jeremy Menez
Gui Assulin
Drenthe
Rodwell
Saviola
Bojan
Pato
Bojinov
Mutu
Mastour
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Rodwell is a great shout.

injuries ruined Pato, he really was bound for the very top otherwise
 
golden_blunder said:
Rodwell is a great shout.

injuries ruined Pato, he really was bound for the very top otherwise
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Yeah, Pato was really unlucky.

Rodwell, maybe injuries played their part, but he really just seemed like he couldn't give two fecks. 70k a week for 2 years at Sunderland and he didn't kick a ball for them.
 
Some stage in the mid to late 00s when I realised 99% of academy players were not going to be the next class of 92 or even good enough to be long term squad players.

Then also during LVG reign. He gave debuts and consistent starts to 3-5 academy players. The fact he finished top 4-5 with them is actually a credit to him and not them when you consider where they are now. I remember reading on Twitter how Mcnaire and Blackett etc were the next big thing.

Nostalgia for a specific type of legacy is the Achilles heel for United. Whether it’s that SAF/SMB type figure, or the class of 92 resurrected.
 
Oranges038 said:
Yeah, Pato was really unlucky.

Rodwell, maybe injuries played their part, but he really just seemed like he couldn't give two fecks. 70k a week for 2 years at Sunderland and he didn't kick a ball for them.
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This is the thing. A lot of players are in this game to change the lives of their nearest and dearest as well as themselves and the fire that burned so ferociously when they were broke burns out pretty rapidly once they've made it, and by made it I mean made more money than they ever could in multiple normal lifetime's.

Secure properties, cars and enough for trinkets and holidays as well as invest properly, and they've completed working life from a working man's perspective. They're then in a semi-retirement mindset whilst playing football, having less desire for that grind because they don't need it anymore, certainly not like they did as prospects, anyway.

It's a very shortsighted way to look at things, especially in terms of maximising earnings, but it's part of the human condition and I should imagine if you never particular loved the game in the first place, it isn't hard to mentally check out from.

If investments are going well off the pitch and money's still good/great, I doubt they have regrets or consider it a failed career, whilst fans may do.

Let's say Sancho is in line with the above; to the layman he's thrown a career away; to the young, broke version of himself he was, he's made the kind of money from the game generations of his family can prosper from and has ultimately made it, no ifs or buts. From the fan perspective, he's tanking a career and it's unfathomable given his age and what he's throwing away.

Rodwell is more than set for life if he isn't daft; I wonder how much that plays into the career he's had that is unbelievably poor given his projections.

David Bentley also comes to mind. Retired before 30 with no love for the game left in him. Invested well and is living the life of his dreams in Spain now at 39.
 
Fortitude said:
This is the thing. A lot of players are in this game to change the lives of their nearest and dearest as well as themselves and the fire that burned so ferociously when they were broke burns out pretty rapidly once they've made it, and by made it I mean made more money than they ever could in multiple normal lifetime's.

Secure properties, cars and enough for trinkets and holidays as well as invest properly, and they've completed working life from a working man's perspective. They're then in a semi-retirement mindset whilst playing football, having less desire for that grind because they don't need it anymore, certainly not like they did as prospects, anyway.

It's a very shortsighted way to look at things, especially in terms of maximising earnings, but it's part of the human condition and I should imagine if you never particular loved the game in the first place, it isn't hard to mentally check out from.

If investments are going well off the pitch and money's still good/great, I doubt they have regrets or consider it a failed career, whilst fans may do.

Let's say Sancho is in line with the above; to the layman he's thrown a career away; to the young, broke version of himself he was, he's made the kind of money from the game generations of his family can prosper from and has ultimately made it, no ifs or buts. From the fan perspective, he's tanking a career and it's unfathomable given his age and what he's throwing away.

Rodwell is more than set for life if he isn't daft; I wonder how much that plays into the career he's had that is unbelievably poor given his projections.

David Bentley also comes to mind. Retired before 30 with no love for the game left in him. Invested well and is living the life of his dreams in Spain now at 39.
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Yeah, you are probably right, back in the day a lot of players were playing for their livelihood every week on not a hell of a lot more than your average person. They weren't earning enough to retire at 25 and still be comfortable for life.

Now they can earn so much more, up 10 times that a week. In some cases it removes a lot of the hunger and desire to keep getting up and putting in maximum effort every day. I'm sure we all know people in work who get comfortable and do the bare minimum. Footballers are probably no different.

I'm sure some will look back and wish they had done more and won more, but probably not from a financial point of view.
 
Oranges038 said:
Yeah, you are probably right, back in the day a lot of players were playing for their livelihood every week on not a hell of a lot more than your average person. They weren't earning enough to retire at 25 and still be comfortable for life.

Now they can earn so much more, up 10 times that a week. In some cases it removes a lot of the hunger and desire to keep getting up and putting in maximum effort every day. I'm sure we all know people in work who get comfortable and do the bare minimum. Footballers are probably no different.

I'm sure some will look back and wish they had done more and won more, but probably not from a financial point of view.
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I try to avoid that 'too much too soon' narrative I've seen flung out at players if they have a rocky patch, but it does have merit for some players, and as you've said, it can be obvious why. Everything a top prospect does is of their own volition and desire now, which is very different to back in the day where they didn't see life-changing money until their mid-20's and had to do a lot more grafting to become comfortable.

It also crosses over with the formative development in a footballer's career life cycle; they're generally seen as mature by 25 and taking off the training wheels between turning pro and hitting 23'ish, and I wouldn't bet against a lot of these disconnected players being the prodigious types who were earning big money in that earlier age bracket where others are not. Rodwell definitely fits the bill, as does Sancho, but where they might deviate is in not going beyond that formative stage in terms of looking at career opportunity as a whole - as talented as either are/were, they would have had to wait longer to hit the bigger paydays in the past, and I really doubt we'd have the petulance of a Sancho and his "strike" if he had yet to hit jackpot money and his potential future earnings were being severely compromised by his current actions.

Still, don't wanna taint all with the same brush because there are more with that kind of standing as youngsters who cope just fine and that's where it's that deviant mindset that's the driver and not the money in and of itself. I highly doubt a Bellingham, as driven as he seems to be, will suddenly turn around and say feck this and coast, for example.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Anderson for me. Came here as a golden boy. Amazing YouTube highlights. Expected to be the next big thing. turned out to be a lazy fat feck who couldn’t really do much other than run around a bit before getting tired and needing to go off.
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This! I was so excited when he came here :(
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
I was young when Possebon was in the academy, but he was the first player I thought naively that he would make it in the first team. Him and Magnus Wolfe Eikrem.
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I'd seen Possebon for the reserves several times and he was absolutely head and shoulders above everyone on the field. I was certain he was going to be incredible and the early signs looked good when given minutes in the first team. Then the tackle from Pogatez and his career went into total decline.
 
Definitely Martial for me. I was so sure he'd make huge strides and be a world beater. Seeing us sign him was so exciting and then his debut! He just looked so confident in his ability and it seemed there were huge things to come.

In the end he was very lucky to stay with United due to our own incompetence when he's a mid-table player at best. If he hadn't had the injuries, and if he'd been more willing to work on himself then I still believe he would have been a top talent though.
 
MackRobinson said:
I break it up into two camps. Injury and non-injury related.

Jack Wilshire for the former. I remember telling a friend he would be playing for Barcelona in a few years.
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Jack Wilshere is the big one for me, mostly as an England fan. The lad seemed to have everything and was the type of player England still havn't really started producing regularly. Would have added so much more control and quality to the midfield over the past 10 years, he's levels above Phillips for example. A stretch so say he would have made the difference, but against Italy in the Euros final for example, he's the type of player we needed.
 
Fortitude said:
I try to avoid that 'too much too soon' narrative I've seen flung out at players if they have a rocky patch, but it does have merit for some players, and as you've said, it can be obvious why. Everything a top prospect does is of their own volition and desire now, which is very different to back in the day where they didn't see life-changing money until their mid-20's and had to do a lot more grafting to become comfortable.

It also crosses over with the formative development in a footballer's career life cycle; they're generally seen as mature by 25 and taking off the training wheels between turning pro and hitting 23'ish, and I wouldn't bet against a lot of these disconnected players being the prodigious types who were earning big money in that earlier age bracket where others are not. Rodwell definitely fits the bill, as does Sancho, but where they might deviate is in not going beyond that formative stage in terms of looking at career opportunity as a whole - as talented as either are/were, they would have had to wait longer to hit the bigger paydays in the past, and I really doubt we'd have the petulance of a Sancho and his "strike" if he had yet to hit jackpot money and his potential future earnings were being severely compromised by his current actions.

Still, don't wanna taint all with the same brush because there are more with that kind of standing as youngsters who cope just fine and that's where it's that deviant mindset that's the driver and not the money in and of itself. I highly doubt a Bellingham, as driven as he seems to be, will suddenly turn around and say feck this and coast, for example.
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I remember someone on here telling me Brian Robson came round to their shop looking for parts to fix his power washer or something like that. Cannot find it now. But that was different times I suppose.

I am fairly sure George Best said with the European Cup final win, he was in the shower after and that was the point he knew that was it for him, it was all down hill from there, football was never getting going to get any better. He'd reached the pinnacle of his career.

I think that sort of thinking must hit a lot of players, more money than you could ever dream of at 20 years of age on a big fat 5 or 6 year deal. Easier to Bogarde it than try and fail to live up to the pressure and expectation that comes with earning that sort of money.
 
This started way back for me with Freddy Adu ln the MLS. Guy was spoken about as the next guaranteed Pele. Of course nothing like that ever came close to happening and his career turned out incredibly mediocre as far as a professional footballer is concerned.

Im saying mediocre because even players who "only" make it to the Championship are firmly in the 0.001% success percentile in world football.
 
appleman said:
Someone posting the video on the Pogba thread made me realize one thing about what he meant for me.

For years and years I thought he could still have his break, or perhaps in his case the break would be realizing a higher consistency and composure during games.
Even before the summer he left I still noticed some parts of me hoping he'd still make it, that talents of his level would be unleashed to the level it should have.
What if he just needed the right playing style? The mental touch to click just right once? Whatever, if you've been on this forum, you've seen plenty of theories behind his potential staying locked.

But the move to Juventus came, the injuries grew, now the doping ban. He practically disappeared off the podium entirely.

Of course, there have been plenty who came before. We have Cassano, who couldn't hold an attitude for more than 2 games. Rossi at Villarreal.
Oliver Torres before his big injury was a big one for me at Atlético, and I still feel sad when I see him being a decent midfielder for Sevilla. (Perhaps he was my pre-Pogba now that I think of it – hadn't been this convinced about a worldbeater before as I thought he would be)

More recently we have the Greenwood and Sancho issues. They were ready to be stars. Sancho's hype wasn't far behind Bellingham's, we all know how we felt about Greenwood before the news came out.

But, with those two it already became much easier to let go of their career prospects. No one is meant to be a star, nor is any of that written in the stars (to be fair, I'm far from fluent in star).
Perhaps it could be better for players too. Before the social media/extremely consistent marketing presence and presentation seemed to be easier, based on how trainers who used to be players themselves talk about how players have to be way more perfect than they used to be in their free time. The rugs just aren't that wide anymore. Sadly, the hype and the eternal comments online will probably never cease (still not fluent) – so that theory is useless either way, at least from a falsifiability standpoint.

However, I cannot be the only one who was Pogba'd into not expecting players to shine more than they've shone.

Who is a player who helped you realize a career is not set in stone, and any talent could just fade like that into apparent obscurity?
Maybe subquestion if you feel like typing a lot: is there also a reverse? A never-would-be who proved you wrong big time?
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I remember all the Oliver Torres hype when he was 16, and then he came back from loan and looked to have broken into the Atletico team. Such a waste.

A few years back I like everyone at the time was convinced Asensio was going to be one of the top 5 players in the world by now.
 
Oranges038 said:
I remember someone on here telling me Brian Robson came round to their shop looking for parts to fix his power washer or something like that. Cannot find it now. But that was different times I suppose.

I am fairly sure George Best said with the European Cup final win, he was in the shower after and that was the point he knew that was it for him, it was all down hill from there, football was never getting going to get any better. He'd reached the pinnacle of his career.

I think that sort of thinking must hit a lot of players, more money than you could ever dream of at 20 years of age on a big fat 5 or 6 year deal. Easier to Bogarde it than try and fail to live up to the pressure and expectation that comes with earning that sort of money.
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It's definitely a slither of relatability to normal folk in that there comes a point where only you and your desire are the driver of your actions, but turning it on the collective we, it's things like going to the gym or maintaining your own discipline in terms of diet or focus on a plan of your own devising. If you're fortunate enough to have made enough money, also in terms of how much you'll tolerate at work instead of giving the v's and walking out the door.

Professionalism is supposed to be a given for these players we deem privileged and in an enviable position, but that's going to be testier for some over others. I think checking out whilst really young is going to be seen as a new phenomena, but I think the difference between the times of these big contracts for younger players and the past is that their version of checking out would be to play within themselves and get by with as little scrutiny as possible - funnily enough, a version of what people do in the 'real world' where they turn up and do the bare minimum to get by and get paid. Unfortunately, with the wealth that comes with contracts like Sancho's, he doesn't even have to pretend to phone it in; he can literally take months off and not even overly concern himself with the fallout from that. Reminds me of Tevez when he went on his golfing jollies mid-season without a care in the world!

re. Rodwell and his demise


this bit:

Although he can, there is no guarantee that he will, and all available evidence suggests Rodwell’s peak years actually came at Everton well over a decade ago. The court of public opinion has long since found him guilty of squandering his immense talent, a particularly heinous crime in football circles. Only he knows if his unfulfilled potential is the result of bad luck, bad decisions or a bad attitude, although the smart money may be on a combination of all three.

Your last paragraph is always going to be the roulette wheel with these players. Clubs can vet all they want, but how are you genuinely going to know if you've got a player who is highly likely to check out at a time when they might mature and go in the other direction? There are plenty of petulant youngsters who simply grow up and mature; these guys who do just plummet at that stage are the anomaly, hence they're in threads like this with all of us scratching heads, wondering how that's happened.
 
So many.

Cleverley, after a brilliant spell on loan at Watford I think it was. I thought he was gone be a mainstay

pereira I thought was brilliant as well. His technical ability was always noticeable in the youths.

Tosic also looked a tidy player on the ball for the reserves and it drove me mad he barely got any chances.

Wilson I thought would be our very own version of Harry Kane given his goal scoring exploits in the reserves

angel Gomes - it was only a matter of time before he made the step up and showcased his skills at the highest level. Doh

fosu-mensah looked an absolute machine when he was starting a few games under LVG

I’m sure there’s loads more.

I’ve given up trying to predict/hope for youth players. take Mainoo for example. He looks like he could be a baller…but in my mind I’m cautious to expect him be our answer to RMs Bellingham. If he fails…like so many before him meh…and if he thrives, he’ll have my full support
 
Pughnichi said:
So many.

Cleverley, after a brilliant spell on loan at Watford I think it was. I thought he was gone be a mainstay

pereira I thought was brilliant as well. His technical ability was always noticeable in the youths.

Tosic also looked a tidy player on the ball for the reserves and it drove me mad he barely got any chances.

Wilson I thought would be our very own version of Harry Kane given his goal scoring exploits in the reserves

angel Gomes - it was only a matter of time before he made the step up and showcased his skills at the highest level. Doh

fosu-mensah looked an absolute machine when he was starting a few games under LVG

I’m sure there’s loads more.

I’ve given up trying to predict/hope for youth players. take Mainoo for example. He looks like he could be a baller…but in my mind I’m cautious to expect him be our answer to RMs Bellingham. If he fails…like so many before him meh…and if he thrives, he’ll have my full support
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Came to post Cleverley.

I remember going to a game at OT when he was young and on the bench.

The subs were doing a rondo nearby during the warmup and I couldn’t believe his close control, it was amazing. I thought, this kid has to be a star.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
I was young when Possebon was in the academy, but he was the first player I thought naively that he would make it in the first team. Him and Magnus Wolfe Eikrem.
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Seamless transition to hyping up another triple named Norwegian in Isak Hansen-Aarøen though.
 
Scott McTominay and Darren Fletcher on the reverse trajectory for mr. Thought they were both terrible when I first saw them and didn't think either would be around for very long.
 
There's been many at United. I remember feeling so optimistic about some of Ferguson's latter starlets - Foster, the twins, Evans, Jones, Smalling, Cleverley, Anderson, Welbeck etc. Some of them had decent careers but none really lived up to the potential they seemed to have. Some got cast off really quickly after Ferguson left.

One of the main ones was, weirdly enough, James Wilson. I remember seeing him at 16 and texting a mate to say that I'd just seen England's next top striker. Injuries affected him but ultimately, I don't think he'd have made it anyway and it just shows the big gap between impressing at youth level and senior level. Those 18-23 years are so crucial to development.

Outside of United, I saw Victor Moses and Reuben Loftus-Cheek for England underage sides and they were unbelievable. Both have had decent careers (and RLC is seemingly flourishing at Milan) but not close to the level I expected.

Back to United, I don't have a lot of faith in our current youth setup to be honest. We've got a superb record and will continue to produce a few but I can't help thinking that a lot is missing and we could be way better. I don't see Nick Cox (or, more aptly, hear him on the High Peformance Podcast) and think 'best in class'. Maybe I'm wrong. Basically, I'm feeling quite pessimistic and, while it's easy to want to see the likes of Mainoo as beacons of hope in the current United doom and gloom, I am most cynical now than I've been for a long time about our youngsters.
 
RE: Rodwell

I remember this place had a huge hard on for Rodwell and Barkley all those years ago. So much some has them as our future midfield partnership, and I remember getting sucked into their hype as I watched as many Everton game as I could trying to figure out why they were so good.

Time really does fly.
 
Who remembers Renato Sanches. Looked liike an absolute beast of a midfielder. Strong, quick, good range of passing and generally technically very good. Looked like there wasn't anything he couldn't do, got his big move to Bayern and just faded into a top flight journeyman.
 
2 players come to mind about talent fading so quickly - Adriano and Deli Alli (both apparently due to Mental Health), it's scary what happened especially Adriano People believed he will Surpass R9 by the end of his career. as for United academy for me it's Macheda, but that might have been the goal effect vs Villa and another goal he scored a week after
 
Rossi and Morrison. Both looked like players that would be at United for the majority of their careers. Both very special players but for different reasons it didn't work out. Just goes to show that you need luck as well as hard work to make it. Talent will only get you so far.
 
A lot of names mentioned already, would agree with several. Will throw another into the hat - Tom Thorpe. Thought he would become at the worst, a rotational option. A shame, injuries at the wrong time.
 
I wouldn't say it impacted me particularly, but when Walcott scored that hat trick against Croatia I thought he'd become a monster of a player
 
Thought Anderson was going to grow into a top player for us but instead got fat and retired by 30.
 
I had a weird introduction to football were we sold all my favourite players for a bunch of kids like giggs, beckham, scholes. It didn't take long to cop that was very irregular though. There was some guy called Terry Cook or something that looked quite good for his 30 minute senior football career. Loads of midfielders who got a game or two in dead rubber champions league games after winning the group.
A lot of them were good players and had long successful careers elsewhere, it was always going to be the exceptional few who made it near our first team and the exceptional few of them who took their chance.
 
Perhaps it’s simply a case of being a United fan post Fergie but I hold little hope for any young player developing into some outstanding player. I think the hype rarely matches the outcome (particularly with United) though this might broadly be the case with young talents from other teams.

From United’s perspective, Adnan Januzaj is a prime example that comes to mind. A player with a modicum of top tier talent that looked like the saviour of a struggling side brimming with underperforming attacking players. Of course, if he contributed some notion of dangerous attacking play we might consider him as someone with a bright future. Ultimately, those hopes dissipated extremely quickly.

Garnacho’s the player we’re pining some of our attacking hopes on now. I definitely think he’s got more natural ability than Januzaj and seems more accustomed to Premier League football, as he has much more pace and dynamism, but the hype could just as easily still fizzle out. With my slightly pessimistic hat on, I think he’ll have a role in the squad for a few years but then maybe leave.

Looking at some other examples, there are some interesting ones.

Take Rashford for example. A player that is still heavily criticised for failing to evolve his game and lacking some very basic football IQ at times. Yet, I don’t think anyone could question his overall output since breaking through. I’m not sure I would have anticipated that.

Diallo and Pellestri are others that are interesting to watch. Diallo undoubtably has higher expectations than Pellestri but I suspect both will linger for a couple to a few years (at max) before going elsewhere.

In short, I’m a pessimistic, miserly bastard who doesn’t expect much from any emerging talent. Perhaps that speaks more about me than the players themselves.
 
I’ll throw a random one out there. I really liked Larnell Cole who was a diminutive midfielder who reminded me of Scholes. Now when I say that I didn’t think he was destined for anything but he turned well in tight spaces, could pass well short and long, and also chipped in with a goal. However he just didn’t progress.

Another random name but Hedwigs Maduro was a young player who came out of the Ajax academy. Was the captain at youth level and seemed destined for the top. It was around this time other teams youth programs caught up and showed me even with the best coaching and environment nothing is a given.
 
The one I’m surprised hasn’t been spoken of is Ronaldo. At the time his knee blew out, the only question regarding his greatness was whether he’d become the best player of all-time outright. The game and the world audience were robbed of ever finding out the answer to what could have been.

Ever since him, there’s a cautionary tale around any player on the trajectory to absolute greatness. For this generation, it’s the literal equivalent of Messi have a career defining injury at 21/22 and us never having got to witness all the insane feats he went on to accomplish.

Another one, on a club level, is Rooney. He was never the same player after the metatarsal injury. He went on to have what can be considered a spectacular career, but organic trajectory was gone and we never got to see what that player with total abandon and athleticism could have gone on to become. He’s the only player England have had that could’ve taken Sir Bobby’s crown, for my money, and whilst he took his goal scoring records, he didn’t outdo him as a player. I think he would’ve done if not for the injury.
 
GazTheLegend said:
Wasn't it in the world cup he was immense?
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Nah, he was a sub and came from a mediocre season at Bayern. He only really excelled during those couple of seasons at Dortmund under Klopp.

Deisler was probably the first one for me. Scholl even before that (great talent, lots of hype, smart personality but never really kicked off). Deisler was another beast though, but got wasted + not made for the inevitable limelight.
 
Ravel Morrision never making it still stings now. The talent he possessed was quite frankly ridiculous, but he just couldn't step away from his bad influences.

As a name that's not been mentioned the hype around Shoretire was huge when he was in the youth sides. He's just never really progressed to adapt to the men's game, but shockingly he's still really young despite being around for what feels like 10 years
 
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