Who told Rangnick No

[Chripper]

You can't be buying players for an interim manager. Not when the next managerial appointment has not been confirmed.

Someone should've pointed that out to him when he was moaning about it. I'm not one of those guys who are blaming him for the results but I disagree with him here.

Once we went the interim route, there should be no signings made until the next manager comes in. We don't even have a proper dof structure to be signing players without managers tbh.

Is the correct answer.

 

[Ralph1386]

No I read the quotes mate but they don't contradict anything they also don't mean what you seem to think they mean. They don't prove that Ralf didn't have the power to stop Martial leaving on loan which as manager of Man Utd he obviously does.

They prove that he wanted to keep him and he couldn’t, which obviously proves that he couldn’t stop it.

 

[Ralph1386]

Err...

Err if he wasn’t available most of the time then another back-up striker was needed which is why the interim manager asked for one when the Greenwood situation unexpectedly happened (leading to what we are discussing in this thread)

 

[roseguy64]

Anyone who actually believes this from Ralf is delusional.

This is clearly a quote made to distract from his terrible tenure and you're all eating it up.

All of those players were agreed/announced before the Greenwood situation came to light. Secondly if you think we had a chance to sign Diaz ahead of this current Liverpool, again you're deluded.

He didn't say that we should have signed those players. He was giving examples of strikers who moved in that window.

 

[Ralph1386]

So what is it exactly you have been trying to argue mate?

When I said the midfielders suggested by Ragnick cost peanuts, you asked “Perhaps if those suggested midfielders wanted to actually come to United. Did they?” ==>
but if the club never went for them you would never know if they were interested, and it’s not their interest or lack-of interest that stopped us from signing them for a low price.

It’s the club’s decision. So at that point it didn’t even matter if the players Ragnick suggested were interested or not to come to United because the club wasn’t.

 

[stevoc]

They prove that he wanted to keep him and he couldn’t, which obviously proves that he couldn’t stop it.

It doesn't but we'll agree to disagree. A manager of Manchester United will always have the power to stop a player under contract from going on loan. Are you trying to tell me if the Greenwood incident had happened 5 days earlier the cub would have still loaned Martial to Sevilla?

Come on mate.

Err if he wasn’t available most of the time then another back-up striker was needed which is why the interim manager asked for one when the Greenwood situation unexpectedly happened (leading to what we are discussing in this thread)

So we agree he's a decent back-up when fit yes?

Ralf can't predict the future though and let's not forget he reportedly went to great lengths to convince Cavani to stay. So he must have been planning for Edinson to be Ronaldo's back-up. And we still had Rashford too, so 3 players should have been enough to fill one spot for a few months of the season.

When I said the midfielders suggested by Rangnick cost peanuts, you asked “Perhaps if those suggested midfielders wanted to actually come to United. Did they?” ==>
but if the club never went for them you would never know if they were interested, and it’s not their interest or lack-of interest that stopped us from signing them for a low price.

It’s the club’s decision. So at that point it didn’t even matter if the players Rangnick suggested were interested or not to come to United because the club wasn’t.

I don't disagree with any of that mate which is why I'm not sure why you spent about 10 posts trying to argue that Juve wasn't Zakaria's preferred destination.

 

[Ralph1386]

So we agree he's a decent back-up when fit yes?

Absolutely pointless to debate this ‘when fit’ because he was more often unavailable than available over the entire season.

let's not forget he reportedly went to great lengths to convince Cavani to stay. So he must have been planning for Edinson to be Ronaldo's back-up.

If he did it was mainly because we were already short in that department and he wasn’t going to shoot himself in the foot. Did you expect him to ask Cavani to leave, on top of losing Martial and Greenwood (and the club not replacing either of them)?

I don't disagree with any of that mate which is why I'm not sure why you spent about 10 posts trying to argue that Juve wasn't Zakaria's preferred destination.

I was making the point that Juve were his only serious destination. It needed to be clear that he did not prefer them over United because never bid for him. Glad we agree on that point.

 

[Ralph1386]

It doesn't but we'll agree to disagree. A manager of Manchester United will always have the power to stop a player under contract from going on loan.

Unfortunately since SAF left, players have had more power than we would want to believe. Another example is Lingard going on holiday even though Ragnick had said no, but the club overruled him behind his back.

I can agree to disagree with you on that point, but needed to show you where my point was coming from.

 

[stevoc]

If he did it was mainly because we were already short in that department and he wasn’t going to shoot himself in the foot. Did you expect him to ask Cavani to leave, on top of losing Martial and Greenwood (and the club not replacing either of them)?

Don't think there was ever a chance Ralf would have asked Cavani to leave when he was obviously planning on him being Ronaldo's main back-up.

Unfortunately since SAF left, players have had more power than we would want to believe. Another example is Lingard going on holiday even though Rangnick had said no, but the club overruled him behind his back.

I can agree to disagree with you on that point, but needed to show you where my point was coming from.

It's been a problem but not to the extent that they can just unilaterally decide they're going on loan without the managers blessing. Do you think he'd have still went to Sevilla if his loan move hadn't been completed by the time the Greenwood news broke?

 

[Ralph1386]

Don't think there was ever a chance Ralf would have asked Cavani to leave when he was obviously planning on him being Ronaldo's main back-up.

He wasn’t obviously planning on anything. This the squad he inherited whether he liked the players or not.

It's been a problem but not to the extent that they can just unilaterally decide they're going on loan without the managers blessing.

With the club’s blessing they can overrule the manager even in this case. Also, players that managers wanted to sell in the past have been kept against the manager’s will by the club hierarchy. They have often backed players over managers.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You conveniently look over the fact that I was talking about loans and cheap players that wouldn't be difficult for the next permanent boss to move on.



That is a fair point and I can understand where you're coming from. It's all hypothetical in either case. My point is we could have tried a cheap option to help out the interim manager and not throw the season away. Whether it would have worked or not is hypothetical as there are examples that both prove and disprove it.

Fair enough.

 

[stevoc]

He wasn’t obviously planning on anything. This the squad he inherited whether he liked the players or not.

So why did he take the time to convince Cavani to stay if he wasn't planning on using him?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/foot...ster-united-cavani-rangnick-transfer-26227616

With the club’s blessing they can overrule the manager even in this case. Also, players that managers wanted to sell in the past have been kept against the manager’s will by the club hierarchy. They have often backed players over managers.

Pretty sure that only happened towards the end of Jose's reign. But that's slightly different than overruling a manager (and an Interim one at that) who would want to keep a player from going on loan. Having said that Rangnick was obviously happy enough for Martial to leave. Had the Greenwood news broke a week earlier then Ralf and the club would have obviously blocked Martial's loan move to Sevilla.

 

[Ralph1386]

So why did he take the time to convince Cavani to stay if he wasn't planning on using him?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/foot...ster-united-cavani-rangnick-transfer-26227616

Because he had no other option, and had to deal with what he inherited. As I already said.

 

[stevoc]

Because he had no other option, and had to deal with what he inherited. As I already said.

Well he could have let him leave that was an option. So Cavani was obviously in his plans as a back-up to Ronaldo.

 

[Ralph1386]

Having said that Rangnick was obviously happy enough for Martial to leave.

No he wasn’t because he tried to convince him to stay.

 

[stevoc]

No he wasn’t because he tried to convince him to stay.

Yeah but allowed him to leave after he realized how determined Martial was to go. Even refusing to play in games.

 

[Ralph1386]

Well he could have let him leave that was an option. So Cavani was obviously in his plans as a back-up to Ronaldo.

No that was not an option because he had no other number nine if Ronaldo got injured. Rashford is not a number nine anymore. Ragnick had no other choice but to work with what he had.

 

[Ralph1386]

Yeah but allowed him to leave after he realized how determined Martial was to go.

No he had no other option and, as you said, Martial was refusing to play sometimes.

 

[Ralph1386]

Even refusing to play in games.

Exactly. Player power. Ragnick couldn’t keep a player he wanted but who was refusing to play. Martial had already made his mind up and forced it. Ragnick had no say and the club allowed it to happen.

 

[stevoc]

No that was not an option because he had no other number nine if Ronaldo got injured. Rashford is not a number nine anymore. Rangnick had no other choice but to work with what he had.

Seem like you've got yourself bogged down in arguing semantics mate.

If he had to convince him to stay then letting him leave was obviously an option. Yes?

And when he convinced him to stay then he was obviously planning on having him as an option. Yes?

What exactly is it you are disagreeing with?

 

[stevoc]

No he had no other option and, as you said, Martial was refusing to play sometimes.

Exactly. Player power. Rangnick couldn’t keep a player he wanted but who was refusing to play. Martial had already made his mind up and forced it. Rangnick had no say and the club allowed it to happen.

Disagree with your entire opinion on this Rangnick/Martial situation mate. No real point discussing it any more at this point.

I think Ralf ideally wouldn't have minded keeping him even though Martial wanted to leave. Martial threw a hissy fit and refused to play in a game Ralf probably got pissed off with him after that so allowed him to leave. If you disagree no worries.

 

[Ralph1386]

What exactly is it you are disagreeing with?

My point is he was forced to talk an unmotivated Cavani to stay as a back-up because he had no other back-up option. He did it because he had no choice, not because that’s what he really wanted.

 

[Ralph1386]

Disagree with your entire opinion on this Rangnick/Martial situation mate. No real point discussing it any more at this point.

I think Ralf ideally wouldn't have minded keeping him even though Martial wanted to leave. Martial threw a hissy fit and refused to play in a game Ralf probably got pissed off with him after that so allowed him to leave. If you disagree no worries.

No worries. Agree to disagree. I think Martial had already made up his mind beforehand and Ragnick was forced into the situation, so I wouldn’t use it against him personally.

 

[stevoc]

My point is he was forced to talk an unmotivated Cavani to stay as a back-up because he had no other back-up option. He did it because he had no choice, not because that’s what he really wanted.

I don't know mate Ralf's generally been a straight shooter with what he says in public. I think he really wanted Cavani to stay.

Rangnick said: “We had a few conversations in the last couple of weeks – probably the player with whom I have spoken most. I told him from the first day that he is a highly important player. He is probably the only one who can play as a striker back to goal and face to goal.

“His professionalism, his work ethic is amazing and I told him that I desperately want him to stay until the end of the season. He also knows how highly I rate him and respect him, and that was also the reason why I played him from the beginning together with Cristiano [against Burnley].

“He knows that I will definitely not let him go. I would rather have another Edi on top of that but for me it’s clear that Edi has to stay. With regard to the other players [leaving in the transfer window], yes, our squad is maybe a bit big with regards to numbers but we still have Covid, we have three competitions.”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ext=I told him from the,the end of the season.

 

[Ralph1386]

I don't know mate Ralf's generally been a straight shooter with what he says in public. I think he really wanted Cavani to stay.



https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jan/02/rangnick-says-edinson-cavani-definitely-staying-at-manchester-united#:~:text=I told him from the,the end of the season.

There’s no point going back and forth on what choices he had or didn’t have because we clearly disagree over how much say he had in the end. I still think Ragnick wanted an extra striker but had to work with what he had.

 

[stevoc]

There’s no point going back and forth on what choices he had or didn’t have because we clearly disagree over how much say he had in the end. I still think Rangnick wanted an extra striker but had to work with what he had.

Fair enough on the first part mate. And I don't necessarily disagree with your second point, he definitely wanted one when Greenwood was suspended we know that much at least.

 

[cyril C]

Why would anyone agree to a Jan purchase? For an interim manager, on a limited no. of available players?

Or worse, why if the new incoming manager think the new striker doesn't suit his strategy, so we end up with another Berbatov, Lukaku that need to be rid of 6 months later.

Withdrawing the sale of Lingard was the right decision, even if we end up missing out on a few million pounds. At the end of the day, it is RR's responsibility in preparing and using attacking players like Rashford, Lingard, Cavani, Sancho, Elanga, CR. They ones that should be accountable, are the health department, training department, that fail to prepare our players.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Why would anyone agree to a Jan purchase? For an interim manager, on a limited no. of available players?

Or worse, why if the new incoming manager think the new striker doesn't suit his strategy, so we end up with another Berbatov, Lukaku that need to be rid of 6 months later.

Withdrawing the sale of Lingard was the right decision, even if we end up missing out on a few million pounds. At the end of the day, it is RR's responsibility in preparing and using attacking players like Rashford, Lingard, Cavani, Sancho, Elanga, CR. They ones that should be accountable, are the health department, training department, that fail to prepare our players.

The DOF's job is to be able to have the vision and strategy to implement a style of play to ensure continuity in the club by appointing the right manager and players for the club. Man City has been recruiting players to suit Pep's style before he was appointed. Otherwise, we would be back to the old days when everything was depended on the manager. We were lucky to have SAF but Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole & Rangnick shows that we need to modernize our football structure. We should have done something even on loan given the Greenwood situation.

 

[Waynne]

I'm just happy ETH is coming in soon and this dumpster fire of a season is coming to an end.

 

[cyril C]

Great plan keep burying our head in the sand stuff , United have bought so many defenders over the years but have always looked vulnerable and shaky at back no matter who we have played only constant amidst this chaos has been you guessed it right your Mr reliable De Gea .
Its about time that we change our Strategy a bit and get a better All round keeper before wasting money on another Center Back .

The DOF's job is to be able to have the vision and strategy to implement a style of play to ensure continuity in the club by appointing the right manager and players for the club. Man City has been recruiting players to suit Pep's style before he was appointed. Otherwise, we would be back to the old days when everything was depended on the manager. We were lucky to have SAF but Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole & Rangnick shows that we need to modernize our football structure. We should have done something even on loan given the Greenwood situation.

You are saying that our DOF already know who will be our next manager as early as Jan?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You are saying that our DOF already know who will be our next manager as early as Jan?

I think his point is that we shouldn't recruit players based on who the manager happens to be at any given point.

Rather, we should recruit players based on a long-term strategy which doesn't change with whoever happens to be in charge of picking the XI on a weekly basis.

 

[Ekeke]

You can't be buying players for an interim manager. Not when the next managerial appointment has not been confirmed.

Someone should've pointed that out to him when he was moaning about it. I'm not one of those guys who are blaming him for the results but I disagree with him here.

Once we went the interim route, there should be no signings made until the next manager comes in. We don't even have a proper dof structure to be signing players without managers tbh.

Yes you can. In fact Chelsea bought most of their current team with Lampard as manager, who they then fired and got a new manager in to make use of the signings made under his management. Its part of the job of a new manager to make use of what he inherits. Thats why you are looking to get the best manager not any old person who will work for a budget fee.

Lukaku is the only signing Chelsea made (and Saul on loan) since Thuchel arrived. The complete rebuild took place before him and the results came after he arrived.

So not only can you do it, our rivals just did it. It takes ambition. Thats the problem and what we've lacked

 

[NinjaZombie]

Yes you can. In fact Chelsea bought most of their current team with Lampard as manager, who they then fired and got a new manager in to make use of the signings made under his management. Its part of the job of a new manager to make use of what he inherits. Thats why you are looking to get the best manager not any old person who will work for a budget fee.

Lukaku is the only signing Chelsea made (and Saul on loan) since Thuchel arrived. The complete rebuild took place before him and the results came after he arrived.

So not only can you do it, our rivals just did it. It takes ambition. Thats the problem and what we've lacked

See my last sentence.

There wasn't a proper setup back in January for us to be doing what Chelsea did.

 

[stevoc]

The DOF's job is to be able to have the vision and strategy to implement a style of play to ensure continuity in the club by appointing the right manager and players for the club. Man City has been recruiting players to suit Pep's style before he was appointed. Otherwise, we would be back to the old days when everything was depended on the manager. We were lucky to have SAF but Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole & Rangnick shows that we need to modernize our football structure. We should have done something even on loan given the Greenwood situation.

So who's that at United?

 

[roseguy64]

So who's that at United?

John Murtough

 

[George The Best]

Pretty obvious they wanted the next permanent manager to have a say on recruitment, not a temp.

 

[stevoc]

John Murtough

I know is was more of a rhetorical question.

Don't know about anyone else but I'm not sure I want Murtagh deciding which players we should buy without consulting the manager.

 

[cyril C]

I think his point is that we shouldn't recruit players based on who the manager happens to be at any given point.

Rather, we should recruit players based on a long-term strategy which doesn't change with whoever happens to be in charge of picking the XI on a weekly basis.

Easy said than done. If you are talking about a 20 years old 30m valued players, that is true. But if you are talking about a 50-70m valued players in his prime, like Lukaku Berbatov, or worse, someone at 28+ years old, it is not the same story.

In fact, such players won't want to talk to you until you have a permanent manager.

 

[Ekeke]

See my last sentence.

There wasn't a proper setup back in January for us to be doing what Chelsea did.

There was a better setup for us than Chelsea had, because Ragnick will remain in his position as consultant whereas Lampard was fired. This allows for better long term planning than a manager who is sacked after half a season. Thats the entire point of hiring someone who will then stay on in that role.