Who's good enough?

[Ali Dia]

The problem is the players beyond the starting eleven as others have said.

Dalot, TFM and Williams are not good enough back ups at full back at this level. Not even close.
Bailly and Tuanzebe are never fit so basically no back ups at CB.
McTominay and Fred are not good enough to be playing holding midfield in a top four side. Matic isn't good enough to be playing in a title winning side either, he's horrific when he's played too often.
Lingard and Pereira are barely good enough to be on the bench for a relegation side, let alone us. Mata doesn't have the physicality to play Prem football.
James and Chong are Championship players.

this is fairly brutal but you’re not totally wrong. Obviously a few of those players would or could take it up a few levels if they were trusted in the team for a few games in a row but a few definitely aren’t good enough or able to stay fit long enough be getting rotation matches here anymore.
I think our first 11 is fine. Our second 11 should be full of the worlds best youngsters and players we are actively looking at transferring out and eventually replacing with those youngsters.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Under a top manager they can all be good enough. Under Ole I am not sure many of them are.

You must be one of those people who called for Ole out prior Bruno's signing and underappreciated that he managed to improved our players. Ole managed to get the best out of James, Fred, McTominay, Pereira & Lingard, made them look good enough to beat Spurs, City, Chelsea and drew to Liverpool.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Don't be silly now.

But your opinion on Shaw is extremely lazy and dated. If you can't see the contribution he makes to our attacks and overall play im not sure what you're watching.

Our attacking play has fell off a cliff since his injury.

If you look at stats alone it doesn't tell the true story of the players influence on the pitch. Iniesta always springs to mind. One of the best midfielders to have played the game but his stats wouldn't suggest that if you looked at them in isolation.

He’s missed 16 games this season through injury. I’ll concede that we look better with him than with Brandon Williams at left back, but he’s not good enough in my opinion and if we’re going to challenge for proper trophies, we need to upgrade.

 

[romufc]

Too often he overlaps the winger, gets the ball and stops & passes it backwards to the midfield. If he was more direct and had a good cross/attacking potential he'd be decent, but he doesn't. He's a typical player we've settled for at United, not someone who is going to win you a game or score/assist that important goal. He'd be useful as a squad player, but for me, regarding Luke Shaw, that's about as far as it goes unfortunately.

Yes, because we do not usually have like 2/3 players in the box. It really is quite frustrating that fans cry about patterns of play, whereas when Shaw is working the ball, we play one-twos around the box and work the ball into the box rather than cross it in.

How often has Shaw got into the box or played one twos with the forward lines and they have got into the box and won a penalty after?

If we are relying on our left back to score / assist important goals then we are going in the wrong direction considering the wealth of talent we have on the pitch.

 

[Infra-red]

To challenge for the League & CL, you'd really be looking to upgrade six of the starting eleven. I don't think it's on our immediate horizon.

 

[b82REZ]

He’s missed 16 games this season through injury. I’ll concede that we look better with him than with Brandon Williams at left back, but he’s not good enough in my opinion and if we’re going to challenge for proper trophies, we need to upgrade.

Who then, in your opinion, is an upgrade on Shaw? There isn't a wealth of top young fullbacks out there who would offer the attributes Shaw brings.

I concede his injuries are huge issue but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player. Plenty of players had recurring, niggling injuries in their early twenties and went on to have hugely successful careers. I get the impression you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater just over his injuries.

 

[Pjisared]

I can't believe the number of people who are on here saying we need a new LB as a priority. Luke Shaw has actually been one of our better players, I think there is so much to come from him.

If he can stay fit, I can see him being England's first choice too.

Couldnt agree more, until getting injured he's been one of our more consistent performers. I have more problem in an attacking sense with AWB. Yes he is a good defender, but his crossing and final ball is woefull. Could improve with age but not so sure.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Who then, in your opinion, is an upgrade on Shaw? There isn't a wealth of top young fullbacks out there who would offer the attributes Shaw brings.

I concede his injuries are huge issue but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player. Plenty of players had recurring, niggling injuries in their early twenties and went on to have hugely successful careers. I get the impression you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater just over his injuries.

I think Digne would be an upgrade, but I think he would cost too much.

 

[TR1985]

Surprised shaw is getting some stick, really thought he had improved since the break and I don't think its a coincidence that since he has been injured we have struggled a little more and Rashford can't have scored many.

We need an attacking option (Sancho) to give flexibility across the front 3. We need an option to rest Fernandes, CDM and right backup.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

You must be one of those people who called for Ole out prior Bruno's signing and underappreciated that he managed to improved our players. Ole managed to get the best out of James, Fred, McTominay, Pereira & Lingard, made them look good enough to beat Spurs, City, Chelsea and drew to Liverpool.

I disagree that he got the best out of those players. I think they can do better. Just like Young and Lukaku is doing better for Inter than what they did for us last season.
We did well in the big games with Fred and Mctominay doing very well in midfield. He deserves some credit for that with the counter attacking football we played.
Although the football we play overall I don't think is enough to win the league under him. We will have too many days when our strikers is not having the best day and we will struggle to get the wins. Or we will be dominated by weaker sides too.

 

[romufc]

I disagree that he got the best out of those players. I think they can do better. Just like Young and Lukaku is doing better for Inter than what they did for us last season.
We did well in the big games with Fred and Mctominay doing very well in midfield. He deserves some credit for that with the counter attacking football we played.
Although the football we play overall I don't think is enough to win the league under him. We will have too many days when our strikers is not having the best day and we will struggle to get the wins. Or we will be dominated by weaker sides too.

Yes at Inter. Italian league, a slower league, I don't think anyone is surprised at their performances.

Yes those days were there prior to Christmas, how often has it happened since? which game were we dominated by weaker side?

 

[Sandikan]

If we could put the main 11 out every week and they played to their capabilities, you have a team who can compete for the title.

But obviously, we won't be able to do that.

The backups aren't as appalling as people suggest.

McTom and Fred certainly have their uses.
Bailly still has a chance if he can just stay in one piece.

The rest probably fall into being "useful in the right game". James, Mata, Lingard etc.

That's the sketchy bit, as when is the right game, and how often does it come?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Yes at Inter. Italian league, a slower league, I don't think anyone is surprised at their performances.

Yes those days were there prior to Christmas, how often has it happened since? which game were we dominated by weaker side?

Spurs . Chelsea . Southampton in spells. Even Palace, but we won the game. Maybe Everton too for periods.
The point is that the way we play open up for other side to put us under pressure. Our defense has done very well to cope with it, but it might not be the same next season.

 

[Skills]

Front 5 and back 4 (back 5 if de regains form)

Weakest links in order:

1. Coaching staff
2. DM
3. GK (current version of de gea)

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I disagree that he got the best out of those players. I think they can do better. Just like Young and Lukaku is doing better for Inter than what they did for us last season.
We did well in the big games with Fred and Mctominay doing very well in midfield. He deserves some credit for that with the counter attacking football we played.
Although the football we play overall I don't think is enough to win the league under him. We will have too many days when our strikers is not having the best day and we will struggle to get the wins. Or we will be dominated by weaker sides too.

Why are you comparing Lukaku & Young with the likes of Pereira & Lingard? Lukaku was our 2nd top scorer under Ole last season while Young was actually performing well under Ole.

Ole got the best out of Martial & Rashford and both performed better than they ever did before, he improved our players. If Ole could made them better this season, what makes you think Ole couldn't do it with Lukaku this season?

 

[Smores]

People overestimate what's needed to win the league and certainly overestimate the quality of squad options we've had down the years.

If we sign Sancho it's easily a title winning team and squad. I find it odd people think otherwise.

 

[romufc]

Couldnt agree more, until getting injured he's been one of our more consistent performers. I have more problem in an attacking sense with AWB. Yes he is a good defender, but his crossing and final ball is woefull. Could improve with age but not so sure.

Exactly, when Luke Shaw gets the ball in the oppo half I am not like concerned however with AWB, I am not sure what he will do.

Next season we will see how they improve.

 

[meamth]

Yes at Inter. Italian league, a slower league, I don't think anyone is surprised at their performances.

Yes those days were there prior to Christmas, how often has it happened since? which game were we dominated by weaker side?

Until Ole won something, there's no need to convince them...

 

[Bastian]

Bruno, Pogba and the front three. Maguire probably too.

That leaves five spots where we can significantly improve in the first XI. For years Dave was the most consistent player, but this passing out from the back style is not his bag at all.

I worry @Adnan is right, our full backs (and I would include Shaw) aren't good enough for the modern attacking game. But I still love AWB.

 

[JakeTheRed]

Yes, because we do not usually have like 2/3 players in the box. It really is quite frustrating that fans cry about patterns of play, whereas when Shaw is working the ball, we play one-twos around the box and work the ball into the box rather than cross it in.

How often has Shaw got into the box or played one twos with the forward lines and they have got into the box and won a penalty after?

If we are relying on our left back to score / assist important goals then we are going in the wrong direction considering the wealth of talent we have on the pitch.

No crying coming from my direction, I'm simply stating my opinion about Luke Shaw. In my eyes, it's frustrating that fans are settling for mediocrity, such as Luke Shaw.

I'm not saying we should be dominantly playing through our full backs and crossing the ball in. He needs to be running into the space behind the opposition defender, so he can get his head up and play a ball into a striker that can tap it in, but it's very rare he does this.

A simple pass to an attacker that wins a penalty does not suffice as a reason to continually stop the aggressive runs and play tippy tappy one two's on the edge of the box. Luke doesn't win those penalties, the attackers do.

Obviously I'm not implying that we should rely on our left back to score/assist. If you think that's what I'm getting at you'd be wrong. But what I'd like to see is at least an option there when we're attacking, like aforementioned, he kills our attacks by passing it backwards. Also, you mention that we shouldn't rely on our full backs. Perhaps you've been hiding under a rock this season, but Liverpool have absolutely dominated, with the two best full backs in the league. It's actually an important position in today's game.

Here's the main question though, do you truly feel like Luke Shaw is a good enough player to be in a Man Utd team that can challenge for the PL &or CL?

 

[Forevergiggs1]

People overestimate what's needed to win the league and certainly overestimate the quality of squad options we've had down the years.

If we sign Sancho it's easily a title winning team and squad. I find it odd people think otherwise.

Why's it odd? To win the league you need to be very consistent in about 80% of games. We're nowhere near that. What I can say is we have a young team which very well could gel in a couple of seasons and find the consistency needed but in this moment in time it's no where near as black and white as you make out even if we do sign Sancho which is looking increasingly unlikely.

I think you're underestimating what it takes to win the league. We did it once with youngsters, true enough but you just have to look at the world class talent around them and then look at what we have now to understand the difference. It's night and day which is why I don't have the same confidence as yourself.

Don't get me wrong. I'm looking forward to next season to see whether or not players can reach their maximum potential and if they do then I may become as confident as you but at the minute I'm afraid I'm sitting on the fence on this one because personally I think we need at least 4 or 5 top players before we even think about winning the league.

 

[Revan]

Given Ole's seemingly preferred 11:

DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw
Matic-Pogba
Greenwood- Fernandes Rashford
Martial

Who do people think is good enough RIGHT NOW to start in a team that can challenge for the Premier League/Champions League?

Personally I think only Shaw, Pogba and the front 4 are good enough and that we have a team that could be up there and put up a challenge but unless we upgrade 4 or 5 positions we won't be winning either trophy in the next 3-4 years. Thoughts?

The bolded ones are good enough to start for any team. The italic ones might starts for teams that win titles, but not both of Maguire and Lindelof IMO (they are good, but realistically you would like a better defender next to them).

De Gea at his best starts for any team, but not right now. Shaw without injuries could start for title-winning teams, but he is unreliable fitness-wise. Greenwood IMO could start too.

I think that AWB is the weak link. There isn't a top team that can afford to have a player (regardless of position) that is as poor as him with the ball, and still win trophies.

I would say though, that an even bigger problem is the lack of depth. If Matic or Pogba is injured we have to play McTominaty or Fred who are just okay, but not more. If Lindelof/Maguire gets injured, we have to play Bailly. When Shaw gets injured we play Williams. And when any attacker gets injured we have to play Lingard or James. Many of these players are not good enough even as squad players.

 

[TheReligion]

Given Ole's seemingly preferred 11:

DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw
Matic-Pogba
Greenwood- Fernandes Rashford
Martial

Who do people think is good enough RIGHT NOW to start in a team that can challenge for the Premier League/Champions League?

Personally I think only Shaw, Pogba and the front 4 are good enough and that we have a team that could be up there and put up a challenge but unless we upgrade 4 or 5 positions we won't be winning either trophy in the next 3-4 years. Thoughts?

It's not all about having the best players in the world. It's about having a team.

I'd say we are a full back, a centre back and a DM from having a pretty complete team.

 

[Revan]

My thoughts below.

Spoiler

Player​	Good?​	Reasoning​
David de Gea	Yes	Last chance, if he continues to make errors this season then it's Hendos turn in 21-22
Dean Henderson	Unknown	Out on loan again.
Sergio Romero	Yes	Decent backup.
Lee Grant	Unknown	Does he get a game?
Joel Pereira	Unknown	See above.
Harry Maguire	Yes	Boss, needs more goals next season but excellent.
Victor Lindelöf	Yes	Much improved this year, solid first choice CB.
Eric Bailly	Debatable	Injury prone, shake it off this year otherwise sell next summer.
Chris Smalling	No	Will probably be sold.
Marcos Rojo	No	See above.
Axel Tuanzebe	Unknown	Not seen enough to know if he's capable backup. Injury prone.
Phil Jones	No	Should be sold, injury prone, cannot be relied on.
Luke Shaw	Yes	Defensively excellent, ok going forward. Really needs to shake off those injuries.
Brandon Williams	Unknown	He's young but needs to improve all areas of his game to become a decent backup.
Aaron Wan-Bissaka	Yes	Defensively brilliant, bad going forward but slowly improving. Very young and inexperienced still.
Diogo Dalot	No	Not good enough as a squad player.
Timothy Fosu-Mensah	No	A bit harsh but from what i've seen he's just not good enough as a fullack. Perhaps ok as a CB option, but not seen enough of him playing in that position.
Ethan Laird	Unknown	Hopefully will get chances next season.
Nemanja Matic	Yes	Experienced leader, when he plays we look much more composed.
James Garner	Unknown	Probably heading on loan.
Paul Pogba	Yes	Clearly good enough.
Scott McTominay	Yes	Decent squad option but needs to improve his passing as at times is very, very bad.
Fred	Yes	As a squad option he's ok.
Bruno Fernandes	Yes	Awesome.
Andreas Pereira	No	I still think he will be given another year. But he isn't good enough.
Juan Mata	No	Worst case scenario and he has to play more than once a week we'd be fecked.
Marcus Rashford	Yes	Clearly.
Daniel James	Unknown	Jury still out on James, he's regressed after his excellent start. His end product is very bad.
Jesse Lingard	No	We all know he's not good enough.
Tahith Chong	Unknown	Going out on loan.
Anthony Martial	Yes	Clearly.
Mason Greenwood	Yes	Double clearly.
Odion Ighalo	Unknown	Isn't used enough to know how good he is, I don't think we'll see much more of him.

Basically, our defensive depth is terrible, along with our attacking depth.

Good post. Mostly agree except for AWB which IMO is under debatable (as starting player, definitely good enough for cover).

We need depth probably more than we need quality on the first team. We actually showed that we can play well vs top league teams. The problem was more that we are one injury away in attack and defense from playing players who are not good enough. I hope that Laird and Tuanzabe play a role next season.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

To challenge for the League & CL, you'd really be looking to upgrade six of the starting eleven. I don't think it's on our immediate horizon.

Six?!

I think the biggest upgrade we need in our starting eleven is a much better right back on the ball and a holding midfielder.

 

[Revan]

I know that we shouldn't do these, but IMO a joined XI wit Liverpool would be:

Alisson

Alexander-Arnold Maguire Van Dijk Robertson

Henderson Pogba

Salah Bruno Mane

Martial​

And with City:

Ederson

Walker Maguire Laporte Shaw

Fernandinho Pogba

Sterling De Bruyne Martial

Aguero​

Not sure, if the front four is optimized. Sterling might need to be put in the left, in which case Martial replaces Aguero in attack, and Mahrez/Silva or even Greenwood goes in the right.

In any case, we would be okayish represented in both joined teams. The biggest problem is that we have nothing in the bench, while City have many, and Liverpool's crazy system allows them to play their first XI all the time.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Who then, in your opinion, is an upgrade on Shaw? There isn't a wealth of top young fullbacks out there who would offer the attributes Shaw brings.

I concede his injuries are huge issue but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player. Plenty of players had recurring, niggling injuries in their early twenties and went on to have hugely successful careers. I get the impression you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater just over his injuries.

I don’t know who is an upgrade on Shaw, but that’s not the question in hand. I think Shaw is quite good, but I don’t think he contributes enough to help us win a title. He had a dreadful injury, I know that, but he has averaged 23 games for us in his 6 seasons at the club. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say he’s not reliable enough to feature in our first choice 11.

I think ultimately we lack the squad depth to challenge at the moment, but I don’t think our first choice team has what it takes at the moment. Shaw isn’t a youngster any more. I’m obviously not going to change your mind on him, but when we play inverted wingers, as is Ole’s wont, I think the fullbacks need to contribute more in an attacking sense than Shaw currently does.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Lindelof needs an upgrade, we need a lot more pace at the back. Shaw also needs an upgrade, he’s way too limited going forward but, unlike AWB, isn’t a wall at the back either.

Beyond that, the first team is okay, though we need squad options all over the show really.

 

[romufc]

Spurs . Chelsea . Southampton in spells. Even Palace, but we won the game. Maybe Everton too for periods.
The point is that the way we play open up for other side to put us under pressure. Our defense has done very well to cope with it, but it might not be the same next season.

Chelsea and Spurs, they are weaker teams? Chelsea that finished same points as us? Spurs who finished above us for the last how many years?

Palace - we had 60% possession 17 shots to their 13, yet we got dominated?

Stop making things up please

 

[romufc]

No crying coming from my direction, I'm simply stating my opinion about Luke Shaw. In my eyes, it's frustrating that fans are settling for mediocrity, such as Luke Shaw.

I'm not saying we should be dominantly playing through our full backs and crossing the ball in. He needs to be running into the space behind the opposition defender, so he can get his head up and play a ball into a striker that can tap it in, but it's very rare he does this.

A simple pass to an attacker that wins a penalty does not suffice as a reason to continually stop the aggressive runs and play tippy tappy one two's on the edge of the box. Luke doesn't win those penalties, the attackers do.

Obviously I'm not implying that we should rely on our left back to score/assist. If you think that's what I'm getting at you'd be wrong. But what I'd like to see is at least an option there when we're attacking, like aforementioned, he kills our attacks by passing it backwards. Also, you mention that we shouldn't rely on our full backs. Perhaps you've been hiding under a rock this season, but Liverpool have absolutely dominated, with the two best full backs in the league. It's actually an important position in today's game.

Here's the main question though, do you truly feel like Luke Shaw is a good enough player to be in a Man Utd team that can challenge for the PL &or CL?

Luke has actually been good this season, I agree that his output in the assists and goals is not good enough and he needs to improve. If you watch the game, he actually make our left side flow alot better when he is in the team than when he isnt.

I do feel Luka Shaw is good enough yes.

 

[MrEarl]

Much of the criticism of Shaw and AWB stems from a lack of clarity over the strategy behind the formation to be employed. There are at least three very different approaches.

1) Liverpool plays with a narrow front three and width provided by their excellent fullbacks. Central midfield is combative and intelligent.

2) Guardiola uses two wingers, fullbacks that are defensively oriented on both width and central. Their attacking central midfielders are wonderfully creative.

3) The classic system uses wingers, two-way fullbacks and aggressive central midfielders including a number 10.

Shaw and AWB probably couldn't make it to the Liverpool bench but they would fit right into starting positions under Guardiola. Under the classic, maybe even old-fashioned, system, Shaw and AWB would be okay. Good on the defensive side and not so much on offense.

It certainly looks like the United goal is the Guardiola system. Add a right wing and the rest of the team fits the mold. The two current fullbacks are quite good with that system. But if they are judged on their ability to fit into the Liverpool system and, to a lesser extent, the classic system, the criticism is quite valid.

 

[Devil81]

It's easier to quickly same the names of the players that aren't good enough to be squad players at the club.

Jones, Dalot, Periera, James, Fosu Mensah.

People will throw Lingard into the mix but I still feel there is a squad player in there if he can cut out the nonsense and get his head straight from a personal point of view. The Lingard that scored the screamer for England at the World cup was a good team player, I think he can get back to that given a chance.

 

[freeurmind]

My thoughts below.

Spoiler

Player​	Good?​	Reasoning​
David de Gea	Yes	Last chance, if he continues to make errors this season then it's Hendos turn in 21-22
Dean Henderson	Unknown	Out on loan again.
Sergio Romero	Yes	Decent backup.
Lee Grant	Unknown	Does he get a game?
Joel Pereira	Unknown	See above.
Harry Maguire	Yes	Boss, needs more goals next season but excellent.
Victor Lindelöf	Yes	Much improved this year, solid first choice CB.
Eric Bailly	Debatable	Injury prone, shake it off this year otherwise sell next summer.
Chris Smalling	No	Will probably be sold.
Marcos Rojo	No	See above.
Axel Tuanzebe	Unknown	Not seen enough to know if he's capable backup. Injury prone.
Phil Jones	No	Should be sold, injury prone, cannot be relied on.
Luke Shaw	Yes	Defensively excellent, ok going forward. Really needs to shake off those injuries.
Brandon Williams	Unknown	He's young but needs to improve all areas of his game to become a decent backup.
Aaron Wan-Bissaka	Yes	Defensively brilliant, bad going forward but slowly improving. Very young and inexperienced still.
Diogo Dalot	No	Not good enough as a squad player.
Timothy Fosu-Mensah	No	A bit harsh but from what i've seen he's just not good enough as a fullack. Perhaps ok as a CB option, but not seen enough of him playing in that position.
Ethan Laird	Unknown	Hopefully will get chances next season.
Nemanja Matic	Yes	Experienced leader, when he plays we look much more composed.
James Garner	Unknown	Probably heading on loan.
Paul Pogba	Yes	Clearly good enough.
Scott McTominay	Yes	Decent squad option but needs to improve his passing as at times is very, very bad.
Fred	Yes	As a squad option he's ok.
Bruno Fernandes	Yes	Awesome.
Andreas Pereira	No	I still think he will be given another year. But he isn't good enough.
Juan Mata	No	Worst case scenario and he has to play more than once a week we'd be fecked.
Marcus Rashford	Yes	Clearly.
Daniel James	Unknown	Jury still out on James, he's regressed after his excellent start. His end product is very bad.
Jesse Lingard	No	We all know he's not good enough.
Tahith Chong	Unknown	Going out on loan.
Anthony Martial	Yes	Clearly.
Mason Greenwood	Yes	Double clearly.
Odion Ighalo	Unknown	Isn't used enough to know how good he is, I don't think we'll see much more of him.

Basically, our defensive depth is terrible, along with our attacking depth.

Great post.
Does Maguire or Lindelof start for another major side in Europe? It's probably unfeasible to replace both or even one of them but I remain unconvinced despite our defensive record.

 

[RedSky]

Great post.
Does Maguire or Lindelof start for another major side in Europe? It's probably unfeasible to replace both or even one of them but I remain unconvinced despite our defensive record.

I think Maguire would start for every Premier League team tbh, he gets a lot of stick on here but given this is his first season at United he's been excellent. Lindelof wouldn't, but he's forming a decent partnership with Maguire right now so we should allow that to continue to develop. If by end of next season we're still questioning them then the club will probably look at bringing in a new starter (to replace Lindelof).

 

[Robertd0803]

Maguire.
Pogba.
Bruno.
Rashford.
Martial.
Greenwood.

Question mark on De Gea/Matic depending on form and fitness.

AWB isnt offering enough just yet going forward. Shaw will never be reliable enough. McTominay/Fred Id keep but not sure about starting.

Wouldnt be against upgrading Maguires partner, DM and left back. Not to mention any current Dortmund players.

 

[themanguydude]

All of the first XI are good enough. It's whether Ole can coach them into a cohesive unit.