Hahaha, glad someone didn’t read that and think what the feck he been smoking
Why are Man United playing worse than last season?
- Thread starter Bearded One
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Podcast with Romano getting latest from Mark Ogden
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Performances weren't great last season in all honesty, we got lucky with a few penalties and some moments of individual brilliance.
I think bringing in the like of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo has pushed Ole to play more expansive style of play, which I don't think he knows how to do. Playing a park the bus and counter tactic was one of his game plans and probably the reason why he's still in the job, but like I said you cant play like a mid table team when you have world class players in your line up. All in all, he's been found out and shown he is way out of his depth.
I think bringing in the like of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo has pushed Ole to play more expansive style of play, which I don't think he knows how to do. Playing a park the bus and counter tactic was one of his game plans and probably the reason why he's still in the job, but like I said you cant play like a mid table team when you have world class players in your line up. All in all, he's been found out and shown he is way out of his depth.
One thing I see people do on here is state how easy changing a system/ formation/ style is on here. The truth is, it takes skill and management to get a group of players to perform an approach of a play as a unit. In order to implement that plan you would have to know the right training techniques and set ups that would allow them to follow through as easy as possible. That's why you have world class coaches and poor to average coaches. It's not about the plan, anyone can play football manager and come up with a tactic, it's about training players in a way that implements that style/system/formation.
That leads me to say, despite all this talk of us sacking managers and going round and round, we haven't actually hired a manager that has proven to employ a winning or entertaining system in the modern Era outside of mourinho( who we were unlucky with since he broke down right before we get him). Mourinho and Van Gaal had systems they could no longer employ or had not employed for years. Moves and Ole did not have any feasible past systems to showcase. City for example could look at Mancini's, Pellegrini's or Pep's work within the 5 year period prior to their employment and could the have faith that they knew how to impose the way they wanted to play in the modern game and with modern players. Chelsea hired Mourinho, Conte, Saari, Lampard and Tuchel, and outside of Lanpard, there was always previous evidence of being able to impose an attractive or winning playing style. This is not to say we should only hire managers with a record of winning ( there aren't many like that). But we can hire managers who have imposed and successfully implemented systems prior to their appointment. That way you have an understanding of what they are trying to do and the knowledge that they have the ability to implement it since they have done it before and recently. Realizing problems with a mourinho is excusable, but not LVG, Ole or Moyes.
point it out, yes. Lay all of the blame and ignore every other part of the team, no.
we simply cannot play Ronaldo, Rashford, Greenwood and Bruno against top teams. Or even decent teams. None of them track back let alone press. I do not care about the press even if they track back and stop their man. They do not do that.
Other teams have sussed us and they know how to play against us. Ole does not have the tactical nous to get around that. He should play Matic, McFred and DVB in midfield and go two up with Ronaldo and Bruno slightly behind him. That would give us solidity in midfield.
Other teams have sussed us and they know how to play against us. Ole does not have the tactical nous to get around that. He should play Matic, McFred and DVB in midfield and go two up with Ronaldo and Bruno slightly behind him. That would give us solidity in midfield.
In no sense.
It's kind of weird to see Ronaldo's name pop up as much as it does. All of last season everyone had the lack of a marquee striker as why we couldn't expect to contend, Gary Neville the hypocrite he can sometimes be a few weeks ago grilled the club for not bringing in a top striker. Now he can't shut up about Ronaldo being a distraction. The club did just what was asked and now it's treated as a luxury we should have never considered. I think people are well within their rights to change their minds but there's some hindsight dishonesty involved here. We were likely going to have a crapshow of a season without him. When you can concede 4 in a half there are big big systemic problems that go beyond one position.
I can't even imagine what Ole would do if a big ego like Zlatan was at the club. He has no business managing a huge club if these personalities are too big for him. Personalities like Keane or cantona would have had him begging for dismissal. Moyes had a team full of title winners striking over a snack ban, some people just have no business in these roles.
What I enjoyed most about that was in the first 10 seconds where Fabrizio says "we're really super super happy..." and Ogden starts smiling at such a wonderful introduction and then Fabrizio carries on "because we're going to talk about Manchester United" and Ogden stops smiling.
For me it went south due to Ole not being able to hide behind negative tactics.
We all know is is easier to park that bus and counter than have a progressive style, until this season Ole did that under the excuse of not having enough quality.
This summer we made some really impressive signings which demand we play on the front foot and Ole and his coaches just aren't up to it tactically.
I don't actually think last season what good and our league position flattered us greatly. The way we exited the last two cup competition a were telling, in that both against Leicester and Villarreal we were miles off it. For me, if he can't raise the game for those games it's pretty telling
We all know is is easier to park that bus and counter than have a progressive style, until this season Ole did that under the excuse of not having enough quality.
This summer we made some really impressive signings which demand we play on the front foot and Ole and his coaches just aren't up to it tactically.
I don't actually think last season what good and our league position flattered us greatly. The way we exited the last two cup competition a were telling, in that both against Leicester and Villarreal we were miles off it. For me, if he can't raise the game for those games it's pretty telling
Hahaha, for a second Ogden started having visions of being represented by Raiola
Well said. People often blame things on one magical position, last year it was the lack of RW, this year no CDM or having Ronaldo. Truth be told if one or even two positions is genuinely the answer to the problems the rest of the team will still be playing well and performing their roles cohesively.
The frustrating thing is about this place and pundits is so many people act like we need an absolutely perfect 11 to look like a competent football team.
Liverpool came to Old Trafford with a 36 year old James Milner in midfield.. If we put James Milner in our midfield in place of one of Fred or Mctominay, we'd have people saying the reason we're shit is because the likes of Milner aren't good enough. Pep got 100 points with Fabian Delph as his left back, Conte got 93 points turning Victor Moses into a wing back... Good managers make the most of what they've got and don't need a star in every single position to get decent performances from their team.
We have maybe 2 or 3 positions where we don't have exceptionally talented players, but we still have good solid premier league level players in those positions. Not having a world class 11 is not an excuse for looking like a Sunday league team every game and getting outplayed by Wolves, Southampton, Villareal, Everton, Villa...
If we actually looked like a cohesive football team and we just fell short of the league/CL, then you'd say fair enough we've probably fell short because we need reinforcements in a couple of positions. But we're not just falling short, we're absolutely miles off the pace and look genuinely dreadful in most games.
It's even funnier when you consider that the guy didn't play the first 3 league games of the season! And we were outplayed in two of them, with the exact same problems that have blown up in our faces this month.
Southampton away.
Conte got on fine with Lukaku who doesn’t work overly hard.Yeah that'd be spectacular and hilarious to see
Only problem is imo it'll happen with us instead. Conte vs Ronaldo would be pretty spectacular I think.
I think the 3 major factors are
1. Ole thought it was time to take the shackles off after being criticised for being too conservative in his approach. He's tried to play a more expansive risky game with attacking players higher up the pitch but he doesn't know how to coach a pressing style which has left us with teams playing round us and cutting through us with ease. He'd have been better off going with a more defensive counterattacking style and hoping the Varane/Ronaldo/Sancho signings were enough to take us up a level on their own.
2. The players expectations were high with the signings of Varane/Ronaldo/Sancho - they believed it was time to make the step up. When results and performances have gone sour, the players have started the question what the manager is doing. The higher the expectations, the bigger the doubts over the manager when we don't meet those expectations. The players have probably given Ole a pass for the poor coaching the last 2 years because they maybe recognised as a group they weren't ready to be the elite team in the league, but they have run out of patience. This has caused too much unrest and negativity in the dressing room, it's almost impossible to have a good season when there is hostility in the dressing room
3. We've allowed the squad to become too bloated in certain areas so too many players aren't getting any game time. Far too many attacking players means many have to be left out, Donny frozen out as there's no realistic place with Pogba/Bruno already in the squad, unwillingness to use Bailly even when Maguire was injured - this has caused discontent in the dressing room. You obviously need a big squad but you need to keep them all happy so there's a balance.
And it's probably worth noting, we've been pretty shit for the entire time Ole has been here. xPTS in the 60s both seasons, don't create anywhere near enough chances, poor defensive record, can't defend set pieces, couldn't get out of the CL group stage last years... I was confused by anyone who thought we were going anywhere under this manager. I suppose this season's meltdown is worse than expected, but we weren't suddenly going to turn into a well coached side just because we made a couple of good signings.
1. Ole thought it was time to take the shackles off after being criticised for being too conservative in his approach. He's tried to play a more expansive risky game with attacking players higher up the pitch but he doesn't know how to coach a pressing style which has left us with teams playing round us and cutting through us with ease. He'd have been better off going with a more defensive counterattacking style and hoping the Varane/Ronaldo/Sancho signings were enough to take us up a level on their own.
2. The players expectations were high with the signings of Varane/Ronaldo/Sancho - they believed it was time to make the step up. When results and performances have gone sour, the players have started the question what the manager is doing. The higher the expectations, the bigger the doubts over the manager when we don't meet those expectations. The players have probably given Ole a pass for the poor coaching the last 2 years because they maybe recognised as a group they weren't ready to be the elite team in the league, but they have run out of patience. This has caused too much unrest and negativity in the dressing room, it's almost impossible to have a good season when there is hostility in the dressing room
3. We've allowed the squad to become too bloated in certain areas so too many players aren't getting any game time. Far too many attacking players means many have to be left out, Donny frozen out as there's no realistic place with Pogba/Bruno already in the squad, unwillingness to use Bailly even when Maguire was injured - this has caused discontent in the dressing room. You obviously need a big squad but you need to keep them all happy so there's a balance.
And it's probably worth noting, we've been pretty shit for the entire time Ole has been here. xPTS in the 60s both seasons, don't create anywhere near enough chances, poor defensive record, can't defend set pieces, couldn't get out of the CL group stage last years... I was confused by anyone who thought we were going anywhere under this manager. I suppose this season's meltdown is worse than expected, but we weren't suddenly going to turn into a well coached side just because we made a couple of good signings.
I don’t accept that you can’t play four attackers. What you can’t do is have them playing they were are currently. Half ass tracking back and abject positioning.
A simple improvement would be Bruno being told to drop into RCM when possession is lost upfield. Currently he is often pressing ahead of Ronaldo by himself leaving. Our midfield two exposed. If he dropped back to form a three then Pogba/Fred covers LCM. McTominay is the CDM and Bruno covers RCM.
In attack he can stay in the no10 position.
At the same time as Bruno drops the two wingers should also be getting back 5-10 yards to track the opposition full back.
As points of comparison Man City regularly have 5 attackers plus one of the full backs in attacking positions. Liverpool also attack with their front three and both full backs really high. City use a full back coming central to create an extra body in midfield. Liverpool use to runners in midfield (Henderson and Keita/Milner) to cover for the attacking full backs.
Right now we encourage our full backs to attack. Central midfielders aren’t playing as two holding midfielders they are both paying box to box. Plus we have four attackers. We basically have 8/10 of our outfield players with license to get forward. It’s too many.
I didn’t think I’d ever say this but our summer signings. With Ronaldo and Varane we’ve changed from a counterattacking team to what ever he’s trying to do team. Problem is it’s not just style of play that’s the problem he’s bought in Varane after Bailly was given some sort of promises and the same with Cavani. Then you’ve got Sancho who’s turning into VDB 2.0 and these sort of things can break the spirit of the team. I know you said you don’t want to hear “Ole is shit” etc but he’s created these situations. We’ve just got away with individual brilliance and Ole is the luckiest person on earth, he could pick 6 numbers and win the national lottery and that wouldn’t surprise me.
Ole enjoyed some incredible luck for two seasons, and this season it ran out.
Filled in the part you missed out.
Watch the highlights of the game against Arsenal new years day 2020. We lost 2-0. We've been playing like this for a long time. It's just been highlighted because of our transfer window.
He should open a casino after the end of his managing career. The amount he got lucky and bailed out by the players on weekly basis are unbelieveable. Finally his luck has ran out and the result shows itself.
Ole just jumped straight from a counter attacking side to a pressing team. He should have done this earlier in his term and done it more gradually. I think he thought Ronaldo and co would score enough goals to buy more time for the team to adjust. He also alienated alot of the players by not giving them a chance at a first team place.
Ole should have implemented the style he wanted in the beginning but he was just too scared to lose his job. He just hasn't taken enough risks. He has neen hiding behing "The Utd Way" and failed to stamp his authority on the team.
Ole should have implemented the style he wanted in the beginning but he was just too scared to lose his job. He just hasn't taken enough risks. He has neen hiding behing "The Utd Way" and failed to stamp his authority on the team.
Agreed.
They just make it up as they go along. The team is failing because >insert most recent event< happened. Let's take a count shall we, (i) Poor fitness (ii) didn't buy a ballplaying cb, (iii) needs a preseason, (iv) preseason not long enough, (v) wasn't backed to buy Sancho, (vi) wasn't allowed to buy a top striker, (vii) was forced to buy a top striker, didnt need one.
1) New players: Ronaldo, Sancho, Varane requires some change to the way we play (even if there is such a thing in the first place)
2) Liverpool and Chelsea have found their mojo
3) Our manager is still tactically very poor to average
4) We have inexperienced first team coaches in Carrick and McKenna
5) Our board is forever reactive and not proactive
2) Liverpool and Chelsea have found their mojo
3) Our manager is still tactically very poor to average
4) We have inexperienced first team coaches in Carrick and McKenna
5) Our board is forever reactive and not proactive
I think the only time we had a system and balanced selection of players was when Lingard, Pereirra and James were starting every week. We've gradually moved away from being a hard working, high pressing, quick team step by step by bringing Pogba back in after his injury. Bringing Matic in when McTominay was injured. Rashford and Martial looking increasingly fatigued and doing less work off the ball week after week. Greenwood coming through and pushing James out of the team.
Cavani came in and readdressed the balance a bit but then we swapped him out for Ronaldo and wound up even further away than when we started and we hit a crisis point.
We still play in much the same manner but we have about 5 passengers who aren't hard working or especially quick or defensively sound.
Passengers is a really harsh term but its been tolerated each step of the way. Players see that Rashford isn't running because hes tired and overplayed but its hard to expect them to be enthusiastic about running when its so ineffective without everyone else doing the same. Like we have a ridiculous situation where bruno being willing to press is becoming a liability because of how ineffective it is with the 3 ahead of him and how it makes it easier to pass through our midfield. Which should be fine with 2 exclusively defensive players behind him but they're all over the place, their positioning is terrible, so aren't. When your talking about protecting your 2 defensive midfielders your team is borked.
Cavani came in and readdressed the balance a bit but then we swapped him out for Ronaldo and wound up even further away than when we started and we hit a crisis point.
We still play in much the same manner but we have about 5 passengers who aren't hard working or especially quick or defensively sound.
Passengers is a really harsh term but its been tolerated each step of the way. Players see that Rashford isn't running because hes tired and overplayed but its hard to expect them to be enthusiastic about running when its so ineffective without everyone else doing the same. Like we have a ridiculous situation where bruno being willing to press is becoming a liability because of how ineffective it is with the 3 ahead of him and how it makes it easier to pass through our midfield. Which should be fine with 2 exclusively defensive players behind him but they're all over the place, their positioning is terrible, so aren't. When your talking about protecting your 2 defensive midfielders your team is borked.
It's not just the workrate, but also the contribution to the general play which Ronaldo is very limited these days. Lukaku might not work really hard, but he does contribute to the general play and has a much better workrate than Ronaldo. It's not like Lukaku has the same workrate with the current Ronaldo. For example have a look at the pressing rate of the PL strikers and you'd see.
In the past he might got away with that because he'd guarantee you basically a goal a match, even against the best opponents. That can't be said about him now.
feck me, suddenly Lukaku, a player the huge majority on here couldn’t wait to see the back of due to his shit touch and awful build up play, adds more to the general play than Ronaldo.
You almost couldn’t make this shit up.
Now this is where the lights start flashing for me in an otherwise solid argument. We've played counterattack football for the past two years? I don't think that's right, and hasn't been right at least since Bruno's arrival. Fairly direct, yes, to an extent. Emphasising breaks, yes, but so do a lot of teams whom no one would describe as CA teams. Liverpool for example. And we have demonstrably not struggled particularly to break down low block teams. Our record against bottom half teams last season was second only to Citys. Our record for wins from losing positions tell the same story. As does the fact that the great majority of our pl goals last season were not CA goals. Whatever the problem is, it's not that we've transitioned away from a CA style to something different.
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We have not by any stretch of imagination been "sitting deep and counterattacking" earlier. And we are pressing less than before in the oppo third, not more. I agree we're playing more offensively with greater risk, and that there is something very wrong with our pressing, shape and implementation generally, but it's not this.
Ronaldo's arrival. Not blaming him per se. I just feel that his arrival truly exposed the levels of the manager, coaches and certain team mates. I think we believed our own hype before he returned. Biggest club in the world and all that nonsense. All I have to do is turn up. I think Ronaldo has called everyone out for how shit they are. I know even Ronaldo has been sub par but lets be honest, he would have twice as many goals had he gone to City.
I like your basic notion here - ie, that's it not about something being done radically different, but that it's more a "tipping point" type of problem: an existing flaw deteriorating further to a point where it starts impacting on everything else. But I think you're slightly harsh on McFred, who are really being put in an impossible position.
Yeah that's correct.
We played with a counter attacking style in season 2019-2020. And we bloody killed many top 6 teams with that style, finishing with the top 2 in the top 6 mini table, second only to Liverpool. But we struggled massively to beat the so called low blocks. Thus the infamous "Ole doesn't know how to break a low block" discussion.
Season 2020-2021 we started to play with a highline and try to push forward much more. That and the fact top teams were scared to attack us because of the last season, while we're not strong enough to dominate and score against them resulted in many 0-0 draw against the top 6. But we, to an extent, managed to fare much better against the so called low blocks.
Signing Ronaldo was the wrong choice, and his presence makes the whole situation harder to solve in my view. Despite the authority and clutch goals he provides. We have an absurd, unsolveable glut of talent up front while at the same time we desperately need to add exactly the things Ronaldo doesn't contribute (but Cavani does). It was just a horrible fit.
It was a mix of panic buying and nostalgia when a CDM was clearly the option needed. I also think his levels scare other players too. It might sound stupid but they only had to answer to Ole and co before and could relax and play their game. Now it's like everyone is scared to make a mistake, which causes mistakes. I'm not saying we were amazing last season but we were a lot better. Since that Euphoric Ronaldo return we have been abysmal.
The amount of “Ronaldo” answers in here tell me an enormous portion of fans had their heads so firmly buried in the sand last season and versus Southampton and Wolves at the start of this.
Yeah because the Ronaldo transfer is nothing to do with it. Sorry.