Jamie Redknapp? Are you from the mars?
Why are modern day football supporters so bitter and paranoid?
- Thread starter Plan M
- Start date
Well I have an exam tomorrow so I'll type it up after that. Not sure if I'll pull up some of my old research but I think some of you will find it interesting.
Too many game shows and reality TV shows that involve frenzied whooping and tearful breakdowns. People have been conditioned into seeing hysteria as emotion.
Football's always been tribal, but now it can be like listening to a game of "more tribal than thou" one-upmanship, as fans try to prove that they belong to those select minorities, the true fan or the fair-minded fan, either by being blind to a club's faults or alternatively by overstating its flaws.
Football's always been tribal, but now it can be like listening to a game of "more tribal than thou" one-upmanship, as fans try to prove that they belong to those select minorities, the true fan or the fair-minded fan, either by being blind to a club's faults or alternatively by overstating its flaws.
Not forgetting the baiting by the media of everyone from club managers ("Arsene, you've lost two games in a row - d'you think you'll be fired tonight?") to fans ("Piers Morgan says Fergie's a decrepit old mummy, even though United just beat Arsenal 8-2 - phone in NOW & rip the f*ck out of him - or Fergie!").
Cheers mate
Fandom: An Intriguing Paradox (1/2)
So I dont have time to really delve into all the details. Although after looking over my paper on football fandom spanning from the 1950s to the present, I think there will be some interesting ideas and concepts as well as patterns that I hope can be of use in this discussion. My paper was 11 pages long and based on the actual thread, I'll keep the scope of my paper towards modern football fandom. If you would like to read more about what I wrote, just PM me.
This post will be split into two parts. The first part will address football fandom in general. The second will address the concerns highlighted by the OP. Enjoy.
Football fandom is an interesting topic within itself. One that encompasses different types of experiences. What I will focus on is the football and symbolic experience that arises from choosing to support a club. As a result, it can often lead to the establishment of an identity with the club. As the club becomes increasingly intertwined in an individual's life, their emotions and thoughts seem to become less balanced. In a sense, fans see themselves as mini-ambassadors of the club they support. So much so, that in some of their actions, they seem to portray that they take the club's problems as their own. Fans can be construed to be less balanced in their views as it as seen as sticking up for their club. Hence, why we see some of the actions that we do in recent times.
In a general sense, the football experience of fandom comes from different mediums. Mediums which can be accessed via media or by attending the game live. Although going to the match versus watching it on television is not the same, the experience in watching a game of football is shared. This provides the individual an opportunity to enter into a world that is potentially different from their own. For the matchgoers, there are plenty of examples that encompass the football experience. This arises even before the match has started.
When the match gets underway, vociferous chants, flag waving, scarf holding, video and image captures and more ensues. By partaking in these activities, fans encompass the ideal of the common experience. For some, experiencing the drama that comes with a football match with other people becomes more important than the match itself. It is often a series of events that one finds to be quite unforgettable. However, this is only one avenue of the common experience.
Watching the game in a local pub provides another opportunity for the common experience. In a more relaxed setting with beers and eyeballs fixated on the TV screens, fans share a similar experience to those at the match. Although they are restricted by camera angles and replays that might miss out on some occasions that the matchgoer would be able to savor.
Nonetheless, this shared experience gives the individual a chance to become acquainted with the routines for how one can express their fandom. The diversity in which this is expressed can also be argued based on the environment a set of fans stem from, however that is not the main premise nor idea that is central to football fandom. More importantly, it presents the opportunity to learn more about and discuss the state of the club and its performance on and off the pitch. In some ways, it is an arena to air one's views and see how they compare and contrast with others. For an individual that is relatively new to this type of experience, they almost become as impressionable as a child as they take in the sights and sounds and behaviors of the other fans surrounding them. There is something about tapping into this sort of identity that channels this behavior modification that so many seemingly undergo. Not only does it bring about a sense of identity but also a sense of unity.
This brings the individual to the symbolic experience. The symbolic experience enhances the football experience by bringing further meaning to simply watching a football match.
Let's take Manchester United for example. Beyond watching matches, there is another aspect of supporting the club. The social and political implications suggest that it's about more than what occurs on the field. Implications such as who the club affects as well as the conduct that the club carries on a daily basis. With the rise of the Internet and social media, fans now have more access than ever before in terms of learning about the club, players, staff, coaches etc. In this sense, it allows for one to learn about important events in the club's history (i.e. 1958 Munich Air Disaster). Furthermore, one can become further acquainted with the club's ideals, values and its mission. It can be looked upon as a company. One that connects with a wide variety of people and is of high value to them. By becoming further acquainted with the club in this manner, it becomes easier for one to integrate the identity they've established with the club into their own life. Therefore, when the attention shifts back onto watching United play in a match, the individual now subconsciously has a perspective or in other words, a compass that integrates the symbolic experience they've chosen to embrace with the football experience that is already of some importance.
Hence, this is why symbolic experience enhances the football experience. It becomes a justification for the manner in which one chooses to go about their version of fandom. When a disparity arises between the two experiences (football and symbolic) we get incidences like FCUM or the Green and Gold Campaign where what happens on the pitch is not as important as what's happening off the pitch. This puts the individual in a troubling situation as feel they have only two options (FCUM or Manchester United) despite the fact that they have more choices.
Now onto part 2.
Here's my post as promised:Cheers mate
So I dont have time to really delve into all the details. Although after looking over my paper on football fandom spanning from the 1950s to the present, I think there will be some interesting ideas and concepts as well as patterns that I hope can be of use in this discussion. My paper was 11 pages long and based on the actual thread, I'll keep the scope of my paper towards modern football fandom. If you would like to read more about what I wrote, just PM me.
This post will be split into two parts. The first part will address football fandom in general. The second will address the concerns highlighted by the OP. Enjoy.
Football fandom is an interesting topic within itself. One that encompasses different types of experiences. What I will focus on is the football and symbolic experience that arises from choosing to support a club. As a result, it can often lead to the establishment of an identity with the club. As the club becomes increasingly intertwined in an individual's life, their emotions and thoughts seem to become less balanced. In a sense, fans see themselves as mini-ambassadors of the club they support. So much so, that in some of their actions, they seem to portray that they take the club's problems as their own. Fans can be construed to be less balanced in their views as it as seen as sticking up for their club. Hence, why we see some of the actions that we do in recent times.
In a general sense, the football experience of fandom comes from different mediums. Mediums which can be accessed via media or by attending the game live. Although going to the match versus watching it on television is not the same, the experience in watching a game of football is shared. This provides the individual an opportunity to enter into a world that is potentially different from their own. For the matchgoers, there are plenty of examples that encompass the football experience. This arises even before the match has started.
Meeting up with mates/fellow fans before the game.
Pre-match discussion as the stadium fills and the atmosphere builds
An opportunity for banter between different sets of fans
Exploring the stadium and taking in the atmosphere of the occasion
When the match gets underway, vociferous chants, flag waving, scarf holding, video and image captures and more ensues. By partaking in these activities, fans encompass the ideal of the common experience. For some, experiencing the drama that comes with a football match with other people becomes more important than the match itself. It is often a series of events that one finds to be quite unforgettable. However, this is only one avenue of the common experience.
Watching the game in a local pub provides another opportunity for the common experience. In a more relaxed setting with beers and eyeballs fixated on the TV screens, fans share a similar experience to those at the match. Although they are restricted by camera angles and replays that might miss out on some occasions that the matchgoer would be able to savor.
Nonetheless, this shared experience gives the individual a chance to become acquainted with the routines for how one can express their fandom. The diversity in which this is expressed can also be argued based on the environment a set of fans stem from, however that is not the main premise nor idea that is central to football fandom. More importantly, it presents the opportunity to learn more about and discuss the state of the club and its performance on and off the pitch. In some ways, it is an arena to air one's views and see how they compare and contrast with others. For an individual that is relatively new to this type of experience, they almost become as impressionable as a child as they take in the sights and sounds and behaviors of the other fans surrounding them. There is something about tapping into this sort of identity that channels this behavior modification that so many seemingly undergo. Not only does it bring about a sense of identity but also a sense of unity.
This brings the individual to the symbolic experience. The symbolic experience enhances the football experience by bringing further meaning to simply watching a football match.
Let's take Manchester United for example. Beyond watching matches, there is another aspect of supporting the club. The social and political implications suggest that it's about more than what occurs on the field. Implications such as who the club affects as well as the conduct that the club carries on a daily basis. With the rise of the Internet and social media, fans now have more access than ever before in terms of learning about the club, players, staff, coaches etc. In this sense, it allows for one to learn about important events in the club's history (i.e. 1958 Munich Air Disaster). Furthermore, one can become further acquainted with the club's ideals, values and its mission. It can be looked upon as a company. One that connects with a wide variety of people and is of high value to them. By becoming further acquainted with the club in this manner, it becomes easier for one to integrate the identity they've established with the club into their own life. Therefore, when the attention shifts back onto watching United play in a match, the individual now subconsciously has a perspective or in other words, a compass that integrates the symbolic experience they've chosen to embrace with the football experience that is already of some importance.
Hence, this is why symbolic experience enhances the football experience. It becomes a justification for the manner in which one chooses to go about their version of fandom. When a disparity arises between the two experiences (football and symbolic) we get incidences like FCUM or the Green and Gold Campaign where what happens on the pitch is not as important as what's happening off the pitch. This puts the individual in a troubling situation as feel they have only two options (FCUM or Manchester United) despite the fact that they have more choices.
Now onto part 2.
Exactly. I think it's more of an internet phenomena in general than something specific to football. We're still finding our way with this new style of discourse, and it's inevitably going to veer towards the extremes as participants try to distinguish themselves. Add to that a mobbish tendency as, like all good hearted people, most of us are supporting United and so are of a like mind.
Anyway, hopefully it's temporary and things will get a bit more sober with time. Hopefully.
Well, it's probably has always been this way. It's merely the polarization of opinion created by mass cleavages struck from years and years of rivalry. Football and fandom divides people. It's just that with the accessibility of the Internet, it's an easier platform for people to spout their partisan bullshit.
Sorry if this is irrelevant to the conversation by the way; I only had time to read the OP
Sorry if this is irrelevant to the conversation by the way; I only had time to read the OP
Enjoyable read, thanks again mate.
depending on how the day goes, i'll see if i'll have time to write part 2. For me personally, it's a bit more interesting as it comprises of more factors that we dont necessarily see but are all around us. It's made modern day football fandom an absolute paradox imo.
And thanks for reading. I spent a whole semester on that paper so it's nice to know that my work is somewhat appreciated.
Always been like this tbh. As with everything, internet has just made it more noticeable.
That's not necessarily true. We'd have to look at the history of fandom for different countries to really say it's 'always been like this'. The reason I say this is because from a cross-cultural perspective, it seems that it would have different effects on people since they come from different cultures.
Still and yet, it is possible for people from different areas to express the same/similar emotions based on the effect of the game of football as being viewed as a somewhat universal effect.
The internet has a lot to do with it, in my opinion. In person, I doubt you'd hear people saying this sort of stuff. Because they can hide behind an online persona though, they're able to get away with it.
Many people always exaggerrate their feelings as well. When they say they hate someone like Jamie Redknapp or Ray Wilkins, what they really mean is that they mildly dislike them and find them irritating.
Many people always exaggerrate their feelings as well. When they say they hate someone like Jamie Redknapp or Ray Wilkins, what they really mean is that they mildly dislike them and find them irritating.
In the 60s it wasn't unusual for a United fan to go and watch City play, and vice versa - and not just to cheer on the opposition.
Oddly I think it became more extreme as fans mixed more. If you grew up in Salford, chances were you were a United fan and so were all your mates at school. Maybe you had relatives who were City fans or you knew a couple at work, but you could go months without meeting a Liverpool fan
These days fans mingle more, not just the "glory hunter" phenomenon distorting regional patterns but also the larger number of people moving around, for education / work or any other reason.
The internet's probably the ultimate example of mingling. Wherever you are you can identify with your own football tribe and find examples of the stupidity of rival tribes.
It should be noted that most people who are incredibly bitter....barely use the internet outside of facebook to my knowledge. And some of the Facebook arguments I see that these fans think are 'banter' are beyond ridiculous and aggressive.
By 'always' I didn't mean legit always, just like it's not something thats suddenly happened, football fans in my experience have always been the most aggressive and bitter. This is coming from someone whos a huge fan of American sports, they seem to have a slight understanding of the difference from aggressiveness fandom and light banter. I mean I'm not a regular in America or anything(but I've been there without any hassle despite wearing rival jerseys at times), but I have friends from America who have been here and think on similar lines.
By 'always' I didn't mean legit always, just like it's not something thats suddenly happened, football fans in my experience have always been the most aggressive and bitter. This is coming from someone whos a huge fan of American sports, they seem to have a slight understanding of the difference from aggressiveness fandom and light banter. I mean I'm not a regular in America or anything(but I've been there without any hassle despite wearing rival jerseys at times), but I have friends from America who have been here and think on similar lines.
I used to go to football regularly in the late 70s & 80s and without the Internet thing it still became really tedious
Then i started watchin non league football regularly at Woking, all the things i first enjoyed about fotball were still there, everybody was happy and it was great
It's worth giving it a go
Then i started watchin non league football regularly at Woking, all the things i first enjoyed about fotball were still there, everybody was happy and it was great
It's worth giving it a go
I'll look forward to it.
The fan phenomenon does interest me, because the emphasis on the tribal seems to trivialise it. Football links people together as well and not always on club partisan lines. It's a conversation opener, a shared understanding and a safe way of letting off steam. Which last task is also probably part of the reason it sounds like paranoia at times.
One of my favourite football fan psychology experiments was done by Lancaster University, see:
http://www.psych.lancs.ac.uk/people/uploads/MarkLevine20041022T120434.pdf
Summarising its results. If you talk to United fans about United and then stage an accident - the fan is more likely to help someone wearing a United shirt than someone who isn't, though they don't treat a Liverpool shirt wearing fan worse than someone in an unbranded shirt.
If you talk to United fans about being a football fan and then stage an accident - the fan is more likely to help someone wearing a football club shirt than someone who isn't, even if it's a Liverpool shirt.
*rubbing chin* that is very interesting. not sure what part of the world you're in but I think I'll be able to write the second part tonight and I think you'll see some similarities with what you've posted above.
Hey guys I have a musical performance tonight. I also got hella homework. I'll try and get it up tomorrow before the liverpool game because I have two upcoming exams next week.
it's not just the fans:
Vieira: Passion needs protection | Football365 | Premier League News
and he's not exactly a dyed-in-the-wool bertie
Vieira: Passion needs protection | Football365 | Premier League News
and he's not exactly a dyed-in-the-wool bertie
Part 2 will have to wait for sometime this week or maybe even next weekend. Uni sucks
Will be writing part 2 later on
That would be it for me. I've found it hard to enjoy football at the highest level for a while now. Watching my local team gives me a connection and also pride. I started following Liverpool when I was a lad and the large Irish contingent and success of the 80s helped influence me greatly as a lad but I dont see football at the top level in the same way anymore. Over exposure in every sense. Players being analysed and over analysed along with managers. You no longer get the occassion of a youth team player you've never heard of pop up in the first team and really impress. Watching my local club I find myself more accepting of mistakes by all on the park (even the ref!) and willing lads to do better even though you sometimes feel that they may be restricted from a playing point of view. I think what I'm trying to say is that I dont have an expectation of winning when I watch and a win is a bonus for me, which is why I get the feeling of joy when watching a win but similarly a loss doesnt knock me to the point of depression. It just leads to commiseration and a chat about the game down the local afterwards with the opposition in tow drinking soup provided by dedicated people.