Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

[Fts 74]

I'm fed up of us making average teams look like prime Barca,

I'm fed up of 25 different ole threads,

I'm fed up with an inquiry after every match whether ole is good enough,

I'm fed up of the term "top red",whatever the feck that is,

I'm fed up with ole smiling after another crap performance,

I'm fed up with excuses,

Basically I'm fed up.

 

[Shark]

I'm fed up of us making average teams look like prime Barca,

I'm fed up of 25 different ole threads,

I'm fed up with an inquiry after every match whether ole is good enough,

I'm fed up of the term "top red",whatever the feck that is,

I'm fed up with ole smiling after another crap performance,

I'm fed up with excuses,

Basically I'm fed up.

I'm tired Robbie..

 

[stefan92]

Demanding excellence from the team isnt 'want us to just be some soulless entity'. Would you call Bayern Munich soulless? Barcelona soulless? Juventus soulless? Real Madrid soulless? Do you expect any of them to tolerate 'one of their own' the way we did Solskjaer these past 3 years?

Just to emphasize this point: Bayern had 7 managers in the last 10 years (ignoring Sagnol who only was responsible for one game). In this period they won two CL titles and countless national titles. They did this, because they did not accept failure and were quite trigger happy when things went down. Ancelotti and Kovac did not even get two years before they were fired.

 

[sparx99]

I know we've been shit, I'm just not sure why Chelsea are being heralded as if they're storming past every team 4-0.

Posts earlier in the thread talking about how they were winning with a weakened team and would go on to win comfortably.

Yeah, I wasn’t really calling you out more agreeing in fact as some posts on here will say look at City or Chelsea or Liverpool beating so and so like it’s the same game.

 

[JPRouve]

Just to emphasize this point: Bayern had 7 managers in the last 10 years (ignoring Sagnol who only was responsible for one game). In this period they won two CL titles and countless national titles. They did this, because they did not accept failure and were quite trigger happy when things went down. Ancelotti and Kovac did not even get two years before they were fired.

Also the club culture and long term plans do not rely on the head coach, they exist despite him.

 

[AneRu]

Not sure how you stretched to all that from my post.

The Glazers/Woodward make a lot of bad decisions but what you are saying is that they would rather throw millions away on Ole and the players he wants rather than getting this (un named) manager in who would magically turn what we have into gold.

They'll have access to the best analysts and advisors in football, if there was a sure thing they'd do it. In reality there is just a merry go round of managers like Ancelotti not making that much difference despite their reputations because of past glories.

A bit like Ole then, spend hundreds of millions just to deliver a couple of CL qualifications? You said in the absence of a Pep/Klopp obvious choice they wouldn't bother and I am saying a better manager can help us take on Pep and Klopp just like Chelsea are doing.

Now that Ole is proving he is not good enough and won't win us stuff having got the players he wanted the new default position is to cast doubt on other managers because the ones we hired from outside were failures and they wouldnt do much against Klopp and Pep. Where were Pep and Klopp when Zidane was grabbing CL title after CL title? Didn't Tuchel beat the fabled Pep to the CL?

We have a very good squad, bring in a better coach who can implement a better tactical plan and we too can compete.

 

[Adnan]

Because very little thought is given to the actual coaching/vision side of the game which imo should be part of the fundamental criteria when appointing a head coach.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Just to emphasize this point: Bayern had 7 managers in the last 10 years (ignoring Sagnol who only was responsible for one game). In this period they won two CL titles and countless national titles. They did this, because they did not accept failure and were quite trigger happy when things went down. Ancelotti and Kovac did not even get two years before they were fired.

And to belabor that point further,

Niko Kovac was fired on 3 Nov 2019, after 3 draws and 2 losses in the first 10 league games, with Bayern sitting at 4th on the table, having won the domestic double the previous season. Bayern ended the season Treble winners.

Carlo Ancelotti was fired on 28 Sept 2017, after a 3-0 defeat to PSG in the CL group stage, after just 4 league games when Bayern drew once and lost once, having won the league the previous season. Bayern ended the season as BL winners, DFB Pokal runners up and CL semi finalists.

Not only are they trigger happy and dont accept failure, they also act decisively before letting things spiral out of the control in order to salvage the season, none of this not making top 4 bullshit. You have to be on top of your game all the time or out the door you go.

 

[UnitedFan93]

I think we all know Ole isn't a world class manager but because he's a legend here we want him to do well. It was the same with Lampard at Chelsea, their fans wanted him to do well. If Gerrard managed Liverpool, Liverpool fans would be as patient as ours; Arsenal fans would be the same if Henry was their manager. We aren't some unique breed of football fans desperately hoping for him to turn into a world class manager, we just want a legend to do well.

The problem is the board and their complete lack of ability to assess suitable managers. It's why we have missed out on Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Pochettino etc since Fergie retired. The board have been fecking useless in their recruitment and the time taken to sack unsuitable managers.

 

[Ralph1386]

He went from Molde to Salzburg, then to Dortmund and then he’ll got to a big club.

He didn’t go from Molde straight to United.

 

[The Purley King]

It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?

Because many have a misguided notion that you must support the manager no matter what.
You get many of the same people supporting lame ducks like martial week after week.
The same dogshit “performances” time after time and you must stick with them otherwise you aren’t a proper fan.
Other people can’t/won’t put up with incompetence/lack of effort.
Takes all sorts………….

 

[Leftback99]

A bit like Ole then, spend hundreds of millions just to deliver a couple of CL qualifications? You said in the absence of a Pep/Klopp obvious choice they wouldn't bother and I am saying a better manager can help us take on Pep and Klopp just like Chelsea are doing.

Now that Ole is proving he is not good enough and won't win us stuff having got the players he wanted the new default position is to cast doubt on other managers because the ones we hired from outside were failures and they wouldnt do much against Klopp and Pep. Where were Pep and Klopp when Zidane was grabbing CL title after CL title? Didn't Tuchel beat the fabled Pep to the CL?

We have a very good squad, bring in a better coach who can implement a better tactical plan and we too can compete.

Just your opinion. If I thought it was a sure thing I'd be all for it, but it's not. Examples of winning a cup competition don't prove anything. What about the 100's of managerial changes who won nothing?

 

[AneRu]

Just your opinion. If I thought it was a sure thing I'd be all for it, but it's not. Examples of winning a cup competition don't prove anything. What about the 100's of managerial changes who won nothing?

But they prove a lot, there are lot of good coaches not named Pep and Klopp that can, have and are still winning the most coveted trophies. To procrastinate whilst the season is slipping away is madness.

 

[Leftback99]

But they prove a lot, there are lot of good coaches not named Pep and Klopp that can, have and are still winning the most coveted trophies. To procrastinate whilst the season is slipping away is madness.

I was told Poch would definitely turn our season around last season if we got him in, but then he couldn't even win the French league with PSG (after the golden boy Tuchel himself had been sacked).

 

[jm99]

United fans have been spoiled by a manager like SAF, a manger who is literally beyond once in a generation, which means they think that any future manager should be given the same amount of time. But SAF was once in 3 or 4 generations, and shouldn't be used as a standard to judge future managers

 

[Bastian]

Also the club culture and long term plans do not rely on the head coach, they exist despite him.

Which is something our club has taken some steps towards changing.

 

[NWRed]

He went from Molde to Salzburg, then to Dortmund and then he’ll got to a big club.

He didn’t go from Molde straight to United.

Yeah, great point, this future great who has torn up every league he's played in would have been a massive failure if we'd signed him as a youngster.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I was told Poch would definitely turn our season around last season if we got him in, but then he couldn't even win the French league with PSG (after the golden boy Tuchel himself had been sacked).

1) Ancelotti failed to win Ligue 1 first try with PSG, went on to win La Decima for Madrid 3 years later. Tuchel came to this league and immediately secured Chelsea both top 4 and the CL. A manager can fail at one club for whatever reason yet still have success at another.
2) If we were to get one in and he fails to turn our fortune around, there's nothing stopping us from firing him and get another in, besides whatever compensation written into his contract. Other big clubs have been sacking managers for years and it never detered any from joining them once vacancies opened up.

 

[AneRu]

I was told Poch would definitely turn our season around last season if we got him in, but then he couldn't even win the French league with PSG (after the golden boy Tuchel himself had been sacked).

Two can play that game: Ole couldn't win the Europa despite facing a team assembled for less than the money invested on his defense. For what it's worth I was never really into Pochettino myself just as I am not into Zidane and Conte.

 

[Ralph1386]

Yeah, great point, this future great who has torn up every league he's played in would have been a massive failure if we'd signed him as a youngster.

I never said or implied he would be a failure. I said Haaland had to move up the ladder step by step before reaching the big leagues, and this is how it should be. You don’t go straight from Molde to Man United. It doesn’t work like that.

 

[Leftback99]

Two can play that game: Ole couldn't win the Europa despite facing a team assembled for less than the money invested on his defense. For what it's worth I was never really into Pochettino myself just as I am not into Zidane and Conte.

Who do you want then? I don't really care whether we sack Ole (we won't because he's what 7 weeks in to a 3 year contract) but I'm not naive enough to think the next guy or the one after that will likely do any better expecially from the current options.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I would always keep the same level of judgment regardless of the manager. Selling Lukaku was easy, selling Smalling was easy, selling Young was easy, buying Varane was easy, buying Maguire was easy, buying Ronaldo was easy etc etc...
It's not agenda driven to say those decisions were all non brainers. Tell me which signing in terms of in or out truly surprised you positively.
The closest I could say is Bruno but it's not like he was an unknown quantity.
If Ole is praised for that, after all that money available to him then we are scrapping the barrel

I think there's some merit in giving him credit for building a good squad for the next manager to work with. But I'm not a huge fan of the praise for 'cultural rebuilding' and that type of thing. I've said it before, Ole gets praised for performing some very basic functions, and it's odd. Some of the lingo used to praise him is far too wolly and broad.

 

[AneRu]

Who do you want then? I don't really care whether we sack Ole (we won't because he's what 7 weeks in to a 3 year contract) but I'm not naive enough to think the next guy or the one after that will likely do any better expecially from the current options.

If a decision has to be made I'd have Ten Hag as my first choice. He plays a good brand of football that is a nice blend of direct and possession based football. His Ajax team of two years ago was sensational.

What does Ole being 7 weeks into an undeserved 3 year extension have to do with anything other than optics? Surely if results continue to be this inconsistent what you rather do? Write off another season like we did with Moyes or try and rectify the situation? Yes pastures are not always green but surely the club isn't that insecure that they would rather keep an underperforming manager because they are too scared to get it wrong again. That's just weak.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Spot on, mate. Would be lovely to win things under him. Came here and was a breath of fresh air with both football and personality.

These days he's almost starting to be dislikable which is sad given how much we love Ole the player. That smile today made me genuinely swear at him .

I don't know that I could ever dislike him. But, I'll admit that the longer he's been here, the less I've enjoyed listening to him. Some on here make out he's hilarious, but I find him odd tbh.

I'll always love him as a player, but when he goes, I'll look back on his managerial spell fairly indifferently.

 

[Shark]

Who do you want then? I don't really care whether we sack Ole (we won't because he's what 7 weeks in to a 3 year contract) but I'm not naive enough to think the next guy or the one after that will likely do any better expecially from the current options.

Why is that though. The managerial options available have all won CL's and titles in the best leagues on the planet. Why is it naive to think they'll do better with the best squad United have had since SAF's retirement? You fans act as if we're doomed to failure as a club when we have Ronaldo, Cavani, Rashford, Fernandes, Sancho Pogba and Varane in our squad. Is it not nonsensical that you think someone properly qualified couldn't come in and do better?

 

[Robbie Boy]

Let's be perfectly clear. United failed to have regular success outside of Sir Matt Busby and Sir Alex Ferguson both happen to be two of the very best managers in Football history. United as a club has never built long term success, in fact United as a club has chronically failed to even build moderate success without these two great managers, one of the reason is that United instead of doing what every other big club has done which is not rely on managers but rely on technical directors that would build the club and maintain its culture while the head coach simply coaches the team that he is given.

And we should stop with this nonsense about soulless entity, there is nothing soulfull about doing a frankly moronic thing like relying on a single person for the culture and success of a club or any entity. It's also an insult to all the people that work, have worked, play and have played for United. United has historically picked the most volatile option, the one that create the weakest foundation, the weakest club culture and wannabe Top Reds actually cheer for it.

Well said. Far too much nonsense being spouted by a certain cohort that is being spun to look like a fact.

 

[hobbers]

Kind of ironic some people saying we are too loyal to managers.

Alex Ferguson hand-picked a successor and asked the fans to back him during his final speech.

"I would like to remind you this club stood by me in bad times, the players and the staff," he said. "Your job now is to stand by the new manager."

We hounded said replacement out of the door before a year had even passed.

We had a perfect guy in the mould of Busby and Ferguson, and we chucked him overboard at the first sign of trouble. Ferguson would have been jettisoned too under the modern fanbase. It takes time to for a manager to impliment ideas. Klopp and Pep were wise to give the role a wide berth.

Moyes wasn't picked by Fergie and wasn't in the mould of Fergie.

This is common knowledge by now.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Louis and Jose say Hi.

They were past it when we got them

 

[Amir]

Moyes wasn't picked by Fergie and wasn't in the mould of Fergie.

This is common knowledge by now.

I'm struggling with the idea that United looked around and decided on Moyes by themselves without Fergie's 'slight' involvement.

 

[hobbers]

I'm struggling with the idea that United looked around and decided on Moyes by themselves without Fergie's 'slight' involvement.

Common knowledge Fergie would have preferred Klopp or Pep or even Jose to Moyes.

Moyes was literally 4th choice. Fergie's little soundbite about standing by the new manager was probably partly because he didn't have all that much faith himself.

 

[Amir]

Common knowledge Fergie would have preferred Klopp or Pep or even Jose to Moyes.

Moyes was literally 4th choice. Fergie's little soundbite about standing by the new manager was probably partly because he didn't have all that much faith himself.

I believe a lot of this common knowledge is simply based on what Fergie wrote in one his books.

Anyhow, I'm willing to accept that we looked around - I believe Ancelotti and someone else, maybe LVG - were also looked at and weren't possible at the time. I just can't beiieve the club's next option would have been Moyes.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I believe a lot of this common knowledge is simply based on what Fergie wrote in one his books.

Anyhow, I'm willing to accept that we looked around - I believe Ancelotti and someone else, maybe LVG - were also looked at and weren't possible at the time. I just can't beiieve the club's next option would have been Moyes.

That appointment was the most crucial one, and we royally fecked it. Had we made a much better appointment back then, I've no doubt we would have at least another title or two, and not be in the position we are in now.

 

[manutddjw]

I’m still ole in. My biggest problem is who replaces ole. I think we’d get Zidane and I really don’t rate zidane despite his impressive trophy haul. We’d essentially replace ole with ole. I don’t think Zidane is a tactical expert.

 

[Amir]

I’m still ole in. My biggest problem is who replaces ole. I think we’d get Zidane and I really don’t rate zidane despite his impressive trophy haul. We’d essentially replace ole with ole. I don’t think Zidane is a tactical expert.

While I have my question marks over Zidane as well, you don't need a tactical expert. You don't have to have a Pep and create a side that plays a very specific brand of football. But you do need someone to set some sort of structure that gets the best out of the best you've got and masks the weak spots.

 

[RedPed]

They were past it when we got them

No they were not. They were hailed as the second coming at the time and destined to bring us greatness when they were first appointed.

 

[manutddjw]

While I have my question marks over Zidane as well, you don't need a tactical expert. You don't have to have a Pep and create a side that plays a very specific brand of football. But you do need someone to set some sort of structure that gets the best out of the best you've got and masks the weak spots.

exactly that’s why I said replacing ole with ole.

 

[Massive Spanner]

exactly that’s why I said replacing ole with ole.

Ole would never have done what Zidane did with Real so the idea that they're on the same level is ludicrous.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Because we don't know what its like to be successful while hiring and sacking managers, so United fans are terrified to sack the one manager that has been the best since Fergie.
Also If we sack Ole people fear we will hire the wrong manager and the worst will happen because we've experienced the this more than once already. Our worst = No top 4 and building a shit squad.

What we need to do is put ourselves in a position where hiring the wrong manager and the worst happening is actually still a decent season. For example if Madrid hires the worst manager they could possibly get they will still make top 4 and pass the group stages of CL and the most important thing is their squad will still be strong for the next manager to come and turn things around.

I think that is the problem and why we fear a manager merry go round. United fans from experience dont have that assurance like Madrid does that even if they hire the worst manager they will still make top 4 and the squad will still be strong for the next manager to come in and turn things around quickly.

 

[beer&grill]

Yeah, great point, this future great who has torn up every league he's played in would have been a massive failure if we'd signed him as a youngster.

Are you feckin serious? Can’t you see why your logic is flawed? Is Ole a rookie manager? There’s a reason he was managing Molde after a 10 years career. Would you a take a 28 year old CM from Molde to replace Fred? Are you Ole in guys gonna defy any logic to defend him?

 

[Foxbatt]

Are you feckin serious? Can’t you see why your logic is flawed? Is Ole a rookie manager? There’s a reason he was managing Molde after a 10 years career. Would you a take a 28 year old CM from Molde to replace Fred? Are you Ole in guys gonna defy any logic to defend him?

He certainly bought some Nowergians to play in Cardiff and they all flopped. `he wanted to buy Josh King but his club did not sell him.