Not sure if this is a good excuse though or even a good reason
Why did we change the starting XI?
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Yep. Yet people will want him to play more at the 10 position when he's been doing just fine on the wing. I think he's better out there as it gives him more space to torment the opposition. He's not getting enough support from our wingers or CMs anyway. Just expecting the boy to do it by himself is silly. He's 18.
kagawa and fletcher rested for the league cup. moyes bigger priority it seems, maybe. i don't know what is moyes thinking actually.
If Fletcher was dropped because he isn't yet able to complete two games in one week then surely he should have been rested against Swansea, in preparation for Chelsea, which was a much bigger game.
I can handle not winning all the time, but I can't handle dire performances and looking as though we are playing without a plan or tactical approach really. For the first time in my life, I chose not to watch all of the match yesterday. After the third goal went in, I went back to bed.
We need a serious shake up - including a couple of new signings, getting rid of some deadwood and a definitive way in which Moyes wants the team to play. As long as these long term goals are being moved towards, then I'll be happy with the work of the manager, but I'm not convinced we're making any positive progress at the moment.
I can handle not winning all the time, but I can't handle dire performances and looking as though we are playing without a plan or tactical approach really. For the first time in my life, I chose not to watch all of the match yesterday. After the third goal went in, I went back to bed.
We need a serious shake up - including a couple of new signings, getting rid of some deadwood and a definitive way in which Moyes wants the team to play. As long as these long term goals are being moved towards, then I'll be happy with the work of the manager, but I'm not convinced we're making any positive progress at the moment.
Maybe Fletcher was tired and Moyes had a valid reason not to start him but there is no way to explain why he didn't attempt the same attacking formation vs Swansea yesterday. Kagawa behind Welbeck and Januzay on the left. Makes no sense not to have utilized that but then again Moyes is clueless.
We needed Young for the defensive contribution.
And yet we conceded the first goal from our left flank.
I always thought this game was loseable, but the team selection for it is what has me down today. Moyes would rather have Jones and Young (two players coming back from injury) in the lineup than Fletcher and Kagawa for a big game at Stamford Bridge, for, as you say, "defensive contribution." This safety first approach is what has me, for the first time ever, doubting whether Moyes is gonna be a proper Manchester United manager. I am also starting to doubt Moyes rates Kagawa, despite telling myself countless of times that he had Pienaar (a similar player to Kagawa) out on Everton's left the past few years.
Unless of course, Moyes views the Sunderland semi final tie as a bigger game than last night's game against Chelsea, which makes him all the more depressing, and does no favours to the jibes from people that we're becoming Everton, instead of him becoming a Manchester United manager.
You're a remarkable simple man for not understanding the comment "we don't know"
The team was set up with pace to attack a slow chelsea back four and it was working in parts we just failed to be solid at the back and toothless in front of goal.
This article sums it up pretty well http://www.theguardian.com/football...avid-moyes-adnan-januzaj?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
Pat Nevin suggested before the game on MOTD2 Extra that he wouldn't be surprised if Young started, but it still needed the front four to be a bit more fluid and interchange positions a bit more to stretch a solid chelsea defence.
We were missing our star players yesterday with Rooney or RvP in that team the result could have been very different and that is why going forward I'm confident that we can make the top four.
This article sums it up pretty well http://www.theguardian.com/football...avid-moyes-adnan-januzaj?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
Pat Nevin suggested before the game on MOTD2 Extra that he wouldn't be surprised if Young started, but it still needed the front four to be a bit more fluid and interchange positions a bit more to stretch a solid chelsea defence.
We were missing our star players yesterday with Rooney or RvP in that team the result could have been very different and that is why going forward I'm confident that we can make the top four.
He's got a point though. There's nothing to suggest that this has anything to do with Fletcher's fitness. Just incompetent team selection I fear.
This is the most frustrating part of Moyes' tenure.
The fact is the likes of Young, Valencia, Ferdinand and Vidic have been consistently poor all season and have all played at least twice the amount of games that they should have.
I thought the line up against Chelsea was self explanatory. You stick with the defence that had a clean sheet in the previous game and you stick with the midfield that won the previous game (second half). I would have replaced Welbeck with Hernandez because Chelsea's cumbersome defenders have proven time and time again that they don't have the mobility to deal with him.
If Moyes really wanted to change it then bring Jones in alongside Carrick and Fletcher, whilst dropping Valencia who has been shite all season.
It was 8 days since we last played. There was no reason to drop Fletcher unless he is looking forward to the Carling Cup.
Some very funny posts as always Noods and I agree with a fair bit of what you say, but I do think you are underestimating Jones a little. You keep saying he is a defender like a mantra but he has put in some good performances in midfield and he has plenty of experience there. Which is not to disagree with the rest of it, Fletcher probably was a better choice - definitely in hindsight but even at the time it made more sense, it wasnt like Fletcher had played 3 days before or anything. Bringing a player back from injury straight into yesterday's game does look a bigger risk than playing Fletcher, on the information we have at least. Certainly I agree with the Kagawa / Januzaj element of what you are saying. But the Jones mistake is more understandable IMO.
What is it we might not know that would have prevented Fletcher from being able to play, despite him being fine to play in the two previous games?
Fletcher's medical condition is well documented, and, aside from him declaring himself that he's now over it, information about it is readily available. So there isn't anything we "don't know", unless it's something completely new which you've invented in your head and decided can only possibly apply to Darren Fletcher.
I could have understood it maybe if Jones wasn't even more short of games than Fletcher.
I think Jones has put in some ok-ish performances in midfield. Decent efforts for someone who, to me, seems pretty clearly unsuited to play there. I wouldn't say there's been any occasion when he's looked the part there, and there was no way he was going to be match fit, which as far as I can see, would have been the only justified reason to start him ahead of Fletcher.
There was no option which wouldn't have been a risk, but asking a non match fit Jones and poorly performing Carrick to play a two man midfield with both Janujaz and Welbeck pushed right up top providing no link or support to them...I don't get how that can ever have seemed like a remotely good plan? And the only reason I could see to change the team from last week was if there was a specific, non ridiculous plan.
If there was a plan yesterday it was certainly very much ridiculous.
So again, I dont think it is fair to say we KNOW that Jones wouldnt be up to the task. But I think it is entirely fair to say Fletcher looked a better - much better - bet for being up to the task than Jones. And as you say, it is hard to see what the argument that Fletcher was a big risk hinges on. Playing twice in 4 days perhaps, but with a week between games the risk seems to be minimal-to-non-existent.
Nail on head. Any explanation for making those changes yesterday seems really amateurish, as we didn't even look like we had any sort of game plan.
The final straw which really got my blood boiling was when we substituted Young and as he came off, Moyes gave him a right old pat and handshake etc...ditto Phil fecking Neville. It's almost like that sort of performance levels are acceptable these days.
I mean, if you put in such a shit performance for your manager, I doubt SAF would even have looked at him.
Oh well, maybe I'm just being petty and "knee-jerk".
I didn't think Young was that bad (aside from just generally not being good enough), but why was he playing in the position Janujaz played so well in last week?
If it was for some defensive reason, what was it? Because we got murdered defensively on the left, expecially in the first half.
If it was for some defensive reason, what was it? Because we got murdered defensively on the left, expecially in the first half.
Please, noods, for the love of God, he's called JANUZAJ.
It's so annoying. It's like how you feel when Ferdinand hoofs the ball aimlessly upfield for the 131686th time in a game. Just say his name in your head before writing it down, you'll have to hear he's not called Janujaz.
It's so annoying. It's like how you feel when Ferdinand hoofs the ball aimlessly upfield for the 131686th time in a game. Just say his name in your head before writing it down, you'll have to hear he's not called Janujaz.
Janujaz
Maybe you're right, but it's not like he did much or anything of note, or that I remembe. He took about +-5 free kicks/corner iirc, yet I don't recall any of them beating the first man. Januzaj goes over to the left and one of his first crosses in looks dangerous.
Young, and Valencia both, in this form are such pointless wingers/attackers to have, especially at an elite club like ours. You look at Hazard running with the ball and you (& the defenders) look like shitting themselves everytime. Our wingers can't even perform their primary function, let alone the reason they're seemingly included "to defend".
I'd love to think that privately Moyes will tell them to strap up or ship out, but they come across very starry eyed, especially the assistant coaches/trainers. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just a bit knee-jerk today as there's no way to tell what happens behind closed doors, but it's appalling if you think about the level of performance, and the duration of time that some of these pros have been getting away with.
I don't really disagree. I don't think you can fault Young for effort though. He simply isn't good enough.
There are other players in the team. Namely Valencia, Carrick, Evra and Vidic, who SHOULD be doing better and have no excuse not to, or who aren't even getting basic fundamentals right like tracking your man, or attempting to pass the ball to a team mate.
They keep their place every time a semi-big game comes along, while other players come in, do well, and are just shifted randomly in and out of the team, or into different roles all the time. Or dropped as soon as they mishit a cross.
Is there any real incentive for any of our players to do well? There appears to be no reward in terms of trust for doing so, and the ones who are trusted in a specific role are, with the sole exception of Rooney, our consistently worst performers. Pretty much every game the above four have started this season, they'd all make it into our worst five players on the day.
Meanwhile, Fletcher and Kagawa get dropped for playing well, and even Janujaz and Welbeck yesterday had to be faffed around with positionally again, didn't they? why?
Fletcher has comfortably being our best midfielder since he came back. I was absolutely dumbfounded as to why he was dropped. It was a week since he had played. I cannot see any logic whatsoever. Carrick and Jones were awful on the ball yesterday. Neither of them seemed capable of passing the ball forward (maybe I was just so frustrated that it looked like that). Neither of them had any drive or desire to get forward and god forbid score a goal or even create one. I really think dropping Fletcher was crazy.
Young for Kagawa also? Christ. Kagawa was very good in behind Welbeck last week. Januzaj was much better on the left. So he changes it. Makes sense, to him.
Young for Kagawa also? Christ. Kagawa was very good in behind Welbeck last week. Januzaj was much better on the left. So he changes it. Makes sense, to him.
We always get murdered on the left regardless, as Evra can't be arsed defending anymore. I don't think playing Young helped us much defensively, although that must have been the idea. Having Januzaj there puts us on the front foot on that side, negating the need to defend as often. Januzaj's workrate is underestimated also.
This is what really baffles me. To go from the team that played so well against Swansea second half to this tripe was absolutely mind-blowing. Januzaj was anonymous as a 10 against Swansea, so what does Davey do? He plays him upfront. Kagawa not even getting a look in was boggling too.
What's going on Moysey?
What's going on Moysey?
He made us worse defensively, ironically.
Sometimes I just think managers are thick idiots trying to be too smart. Absolutely no justification in dropping two out of our three most influential players the previous game (fletch, kagawa) for two players just returning from injury in a big match. Also no justification in not keeping a defense that looked solid the game before, putting in a player who seems to have an effect in us defending pretty shit every time he plays.
Also why was Januzaj playing ahead of welbeck?
Also why was Januzaj playing ahead of welbeck?
This. All of it. Wtf was he thinking? It's even more baffling considering they were both back from injury. And don't even get me started about Valencia on the right...
I understand Valencia on the right because there is nobody else. Zaha is clearly never going to feature under Moyes, so that leaves us with nobody bar Valencia at this time. And Moyes clearly doesn't fancy Nani either so....
yeah because going to a wingerless formation is out of the question....
didnt Clev play on wing ?
when?
I don't get it. In Kagawa's situation, he plays well in his preferred position, then immediately gets dropped for the next game. It's like not he's been dropped for Rooney or RVP, but an 18 year old winger. Now i know Januzaj is going to be a great player, but why not deploy him(Januzaj) in his favored position and let the man who did reasonably well in the previous game play and build more confidence.
It cannot be a tactical decision, because at the moment Januzaj playing in the hole hasn't done much to suggest that he should be the preferred choice.
Smells to me that Moyes is clutching at straws.
It cannot be a tactical decision, because at the moment Januzaj playing in the hole hasn't done much to suggest that he should be the preferred choice.
Smells to me that Moyes is clutching at straws.
Wigan.
I think some posters claimed he was quite good but that's nothing i can be sure of.
like when he was on loan? i'm confused jim..what does that have to do with my wingerless formation comment
Well we played diamond formation under Fergie too. Clev was a wide player in that formation. As he has experience in playing in the middle and wide we could try wingerless formation. The personel is there.
There's that match coming up on Wednesday, which is what I assume was behind any particular changes/omissions.I'm not one to criticize/bash Moyes etc, so this isn't a thread for that.
But for the life of me, I don't understand why 2, fairly crucial changes were made to the starting XI today, vs the team who played well in the 2nd half against Swansea?
& to compound matters, both Young & Jones (who's not even a CM
If you were planning on throwing a rusty Jones into midfield, we should have gone 3 in the middle with Fletcher & Carrick. Was Fletcher dropped because he's not strong enough to play 2 matches in a week?? I'm really confused. Even more baffling was dropping Kagawa in favour of deploying Januzaj in a position which ATM, is not his best.
All in favour of bringing in another, out of form, overpaid, defensive winger (let's face it, Young in this form is almost a mirror of Valencia on the other wing) who's corners or crosses couldn't beat the first man
Some really strange, "revert to type" kind of decisions today.
ah i see. i wasn even thinking of the diamond formation but that's something we could try. i feel like it's not simply a personnel problem as some have pointed out..the way we play does us no favors at all
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't play that formation. There is no point in playing a winger over and over again who a) can't beat his man and b) can't cross.
true