Why do most of Fergie's "disciples" fail as managers?

[Annihilate Now!]

Trying to move away from an Ole thread (whilst still sort of being an Ole thread)... a great number of Fergie's players (and assistants) have gone onto become managers, and almost all have either been a) total failures, or b) seen as a bit of a joke...

Some like Robson, Hughes and Keane achieved early success, but it all fell apart pretty quickly after... and others like Jaap Stam, Berg, Forlan, Sheringham etc never saw any success. Then you've got the jokes like Phil and Gary Neville, Paul Ince, Scholes (if that even counts)... I'm sure there's more?

Phelan and Brian Kidd were terrible when they made the step up to management, I think Mulesteen was too?

On the better side, Brucey has managed over 1000 games, but has never really been loved anywhere and doesn't have a great reputation. Strachan had a a decent career too without being anything extraordinary. Elsewhere there's also Blanc who is currently off coaching in the middle east, and Quieroz is Egypt manager - both have reputations of sorts, but neither in great jobs

So is there an actual reason, or is it just a coincidence, coupled with the fact that most managers end up as either failures or a joke? Is it something to do with SAF himself and his greatness and not being able to live up to it?

 

[Foxbatt]

Trying to move away from an Ole thread (whilst still sort of being an Ole thread)... a great number of Fergie's players (and assistants) have gone onto become managers, and almost all have either been a) total failures, or b) seen as a bit of a joke...

Some like Robson, Hughes and Keane achieved early success, but it all fell apart pretty quickly after... and others like Jaap Stam, Berg, Forlan, Sheringham etc never saw any success. Then you've got the jokes like Phil and Gary Neville, Paul Ince, Scholes (if that even counts)... I'm sure there's more?

Phelan and Brian Kidd were terrible when they made the step up to management, I think Mulesteen was too?

On the better side, Brucey has managed over 1000 games, but has never really been loved anywhere and doesn't have a great reputation. Strachan had a a decent career too without being anything extraordinary. Elsewhere there's also Blanc who is currently off coaching in the middle east, and Quieroz is Egypt manager - both have reputations of sorts, but neither in great jobs

So is there an actual reason, or is it just a coincidence, coupled with the fact that most managers end up as either failures or a joke? Is it something to do with SAF himself and his greatness and not being able to live up to it?

Quiroz and Blanc are not disciples of SAF. Blanc as a player won everything before he came to United. Quiroz was already a coach and manager before he came to United.
I also think his ex players tried to do things the way SAF did but it was a different era. Or maybe they simply were or are not good enough.

 

[Idxomer]

We just had this thread why-are-ex-united-players-such-bad-managers

 

[steffyr2]

Trying to move away from an Ole thread (whilst still sort of being an Ole thread)... a great number of Fergie's players (and assistants) have gone onto become managers, and almost all have either been a) total failures, or b) seen as a bit of a joke...

Some like Robson, Hughes and Keane achieved early success, but it all fell apart pretty quickly after... and others like Jaap Stam, Berg, Forlan, Sheringham etc never saw any success. Then you've got the jokes like Phil and Gary Neville, Paul Ince, Scholes (if that even counts)... I'm sure there's more?

Phelan and Brian Kidd were terrible when they made the step up to management, I think Mulesteen was too?

On the better side, Brucey has managed over 1000 games, but has never really been loved anywhere and doesn't have a great reputation. Strachan had a a decent career too without being anything extraordinary. Elsewhere there's also Blanc who is currently off coaching in the middle east, and Quieroz is Egypt manager - both have reputations of sorts, but neither in great jobs

So is there an actual reason, or is it just a coincidence, coupled with the fact that most managers end up as either failures or a joke? Is it something to do with SAF himself and his greatness and not being able to live up to it?

I've wondered this. Remember how people used to complain how Sir Alex was lost in Europe? That he couldn't compete against the big club in the CL?
Seems like there was a lot of winning playing 4-4-2 while in England and just overrunning the other teams (who also played 442) because we had all the best players in the league. Not so much tactics. Not too much to learn.
Plus the English players don't go to other leagues usually, to see other ways to play. Now those other ways to play are here, and they can't cope.
I still don't understand why they can't learn. Try the different ways to play on the U16 team or something.

 

[Ixion]

The best players don't always make the best managers and vice versa. Just because a player played in a very successful side it means nothing really in the context of being a great manager. Sir Alex was a great manager because of his upbringing and personality, you may learn something from him but you can't just copy him.

 

[Chairman Steve]

A lot of them played under one guy, who was the GOAT football manager, and know nothing else but his ways of working.

Compare that to Guardiola in his playing days, played under Cruyff, Robson and LVG.

And I don’t know what it is about British players/managers but they do not like playing abroad or managing abroad, unlike their European counterparts and therefore that’s why you see feck all from British managers. British players seem more at home making easy money on the pundit circuit.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We just had this thread why-are-ex-united-players-such-bad-managers

Totally missed it -- though my OP clearly had way more effort!

Mods Delete/Merge/Whatever please

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Bobby Charlton once explained he found it difficult to manage because his players weren't as good a player as he was. So something he found simple and straightforward would just not come across that simple to his players. Likewise you can say a lot of Alex Ferguson's players were the best in the country.

 

[sullydnl]

Who would the comparison point be? As in which manager has had a lot of successful managers of the future play under him? One of the Barca managers maybe?

If so my immediate thought would be that there was culturally and structurally less emphasis within the club on formalised tactical and stylistic considerations than there was at a club like Barca. If you're molded as a footballer within clubs that place greater emphasis on that then presumably that will shape your development as a manager.

Or to put it a different way, SAF was an extremely exceptional manager. And if most people try to manage in a style that emulates his, they will likely fail by dint of not being the exceptional person that he was. Whereas there are probably other less-exceptional but still top-level managers whose style and strong points would be easier to emulate.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Was gutted when Roy turned out shite, that promotion year at Sunderland was amazing

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Being a manager is really hard, just cos your a good player in a good team with a good teacher doesn’t mean your gonna be a good manager.

In fairness to Fergie and amazing amount of his former players have gone into management, none have turned into great managers but the numbers who have tried is impressive

 

[justsomebloke]

Was gutted when Roy turned out shite, that promotion year at Sunderland was amazing

Not a big surprise though. Being convinced it all comes down to character, hard work and single-minded loyalty is a great, great trait for a midfielder and a team captain, but a debilitating flaw for a manager.

 

[MadMike]

Purely speculation of course but...

A lot of the ex-United players stayed at the club a very long time (or their whole careers) and don't have a great diversity of managerial experience. Being on the receiving end of it I mean.

Fergie was a supreme man-manager and motivator while tactics was perhaps an area where he was a bit weaker and that reflected in a lot of our European runs. A lot of the things that come out of both the ex-United pundits and Ole himself is like they focus too much on attitude and too little on the tactical side of the game. Perhaps because spending so much time with Fergie and admiring the attitude of his teams, they try to mimic what he did.

The football game has evolved a lot though. It was already was evolving by the time Fergie was retiring. The players that could have been managers have not really evolved with it and don't seem to have studied coaching to the level better manager have.

Or it could just be a coincidence, the feck do I know.

 

[Sky1981]

To be fair, people see Fergie being in one club for 26 years as an extra achievement, reinventing they say.

I'd say it's actually making things easier for him, as he has build a behemoth according to his vision, the giant that is Manchester United starting from the academy to the tea lady is built according to his needs, so that should be his strength. Can you imagine (hunger aside) that if you give Klopp Pep or most good managers 26 years at one club how scary they'll become? with all the recruitment, youth progress etc all built to their liking and all coach was handpicked to fulfil his vision?

So I don't think it's fair to ever compare anyone to Fergie as nobody has what he had, and that's not a slight on him because he's earnt every advantage he has.

Most of them follows SAF on his prime, where his kingdom has been built. What they lacking is being coached by the prime SAF fresh on his first year in United. That's what they should be copying, not the 10+ years successful SAF.

 

[Skills]

They lack ingenuity and original thought

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Not a big surprise though. Being convinced it all comes down to character, hard work and single-minded loyalty is a great, great trait for a midfielder and a team captain, but a debilitating flaw for a manager.

He had Dwight Yorke playing centre midfield in the Premier League, if those aren't innovative tactics I dunno what is

 

[Idxomer]

Who would the comparison point be? As in which manager has had a lot of successful managers of the future play under him? One of the Barca managers maybe?

I think LVG had coached a lot of players who turned out to be successful managers and Mourinho worked with him too.

 

[Sky1981]

Being a manager is really hard, just cos your a good player in a good team with a good teacher doesn’t mean your gonna be a good manager.

In fairness to Fergie and amazing amount of his former players have gone into management, none have turned into great managers but the numbers who have tried is impressive

I think the genius of Fergie gave them the illusion that they can do the job. What he does seems simple, and maybe it's that simple if only they have his Charisma, drives, and visions.

 

[Superden]

most managers fail. /thread.

 

[RORY65]

I think in part Ferguson was just instinctively an incredible manager, he wasn't necessarily as process driven or as wedded to a philosophy as some of his peers (and certainly not as much as the top managers now) but had an innate feel for what was needed in different situations. You can see that in Ole now when he speaks about his plans, it's always been quite vague and generic with no real specifics and it's difficult to succeed that way without the magic that Ferguson possessed .

 

[devilish]

A- Most former players who became top managers had worked under many top managers. Ancelotti worked under Liedholm, Sacchi and Capello, Conte worked under the likes of Trapattoni, Lippi and Ancelotti, Zidane worked under Lippi, Ancelotti and Del Bosque etc. They were exposed to different approaches to the game, different systems and saw top managers failing, losing their jobs or moving on. SAF gave them the impression that management is easy, that there's only one way to skin a cat and that its the manager's way or the highway.

B- Time and time again I hear about how easy it is to get coaching badges in the UK as opposed to places such as the Serie A. Thus most people who get coaching badges in England aren't really prepared for the top job.

 

[Skills]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/why-fergies-disciples-make-average-managers.450745/

I made this thread 2 years ago. Great minds eh

 

[Denis79]

Trying to move away from an Ole thread (whilst still sort of being an Ole thread)... a great number of Fergie's players (and assistants) have gone onto become managers, and almost all have either been a) total failures, or b) seen as a bit of a joke...

Some like Robson, Hughes and Keane achieved early success, but it all fell apart pretty quickly after... and others like Jaap Stam, Berg, Forlan, Sheringham etc never saw any success. Then you've got the jokes like Phil and Gary Neville, Paul Ince, Scholes (if that even counts)... I'm sure there's more?

Phelan and Brian Kidd were terrible when they made the step up to management, I think Mulesteen was too?

On the better side, Brucey has managed over 1000 games, but has never really been loved anywhere and doesn't have a great reputation. Strachan had a a decent career too without being anything extraordinary. Elsewhere there's also Blanc who is currently off coaching in the middle east, and Quieroz is Egypt manager - both have reputations of sorts, but neither in great jobs

So is there an actual reason, or is it just a coincidence, coupled with the fact that most managers end up as either failures or a joke? Is it something to do with SAF himself and his greatness and not being able to live up to it?

I think that those who try and copy-paste SAF will inevitably fail. Unless it really is your vision and your philosophy, I believe it's hard to become great at anything really. Because of SAF's success I think the likes of Neville, Ole etc, just try to copy instead of finding their own way.

 

[Revan]

Just was thinking to make a similar thread.

I guess, it would be interesting to see if Fergie's disciples fail, or every great manager's disciple fail. Does anyone know how did the disciples of Michels pr Sacchi did? Cruyff had Guardiola, but how did his other disciples do?

My best guess is that the football evolves, which means that the best managers are those who change things rather than imitate their previous boss. Which makes the disciples of great managers miserably fail.

@devilish 's answer might be the best explanation. The best managers probably worked under different managers, and learned different styles, eventually creating their own. On the other hand, SAF's disciples typically only knew SAF (or maybe someone else, but not a top one). Interestingly, the most successful ones (I would say Blanc and Queiroz) actually were not SAF's disciples. They worked under him relatively late in their career, and were exposed to different styles etc.

 

[sullydnl]

I think in part Ferguson was just instinctively an incredible manager, he wasn't necessarily as process driven or as wedded to a philosophy as some of his peers (and certainly not as much as the top managers now) but had an innate feel for what was needed in different situations. You can see that in Ole now when he speaks about his plans, it's always been quite vague and generic with no real specifics and it's difficult to succeed that way without the magic that Ferguson possessed .

Yep.

Conversely that's also probably what allowed him his longevity. Our Queiroz-era side was very different to our mid-90s side, because it had to be as top level football had changed over that period. Similarly if we imagine a world where SAF was still managing and competing now, it would be because he had adapted to function within the current trends of top level football rather than by sticking to doing the same exact thing he was doing over a decade ago.

Whereas if you take someone like LVG for example, he seems far more wedded to his own specific ideas as to how football should be played, which perhaps leaves a manager vulnerable to being left behind as the years go by. But maybe those managers with more formalised and system-based principles are easier for players to emulate (with adjustments) when they become managers, rather than trying to embody the entirety of what made SAF special.

 

[OleBoiii]

Apart from the obvious reason that 'managing' and 'playing' aren't remotely the same thing:

There are way more external factors you have to deal with as a manager. And many of these external factors are simply out of your control. Also, there is no such thing as "good management, but poor results". If the results are poor, then the manager has done a poor job, even though he was only a small part of a bigger picture. But as a player, it is possible to play well without achieving much success in terms of trophies.

 

[Lynty]

From your tone, and some of the posters comments - it looks like your definition of a shite manager is anything below the Premier League.

That means there's 20 management positions in English football where your considered a half decent manager. Maybe a handful in the other 5 other leagues. Approx. 4000 player have appeared in the league since 1992. We can triple that as a very conservative estimate for players in the top 5 leagues in Europe.

All in all - the odds are against you. Management is just as much about as lucky breaks/opportunities than talent or intellect.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

From your tone, and some of the posters comments - it looks like your definition of a shite manager is anything below the Premier League.

That means there's 20 management positions in English football where your considered a half decent manager. Maybe a handful in the other 5 other leagues. Approx. 4000 player have appeared in the league since 1992. We can triple that as a very conservative estimate for players in the top 5 leagues in Europe.

All in all - the odds are against you. Management is just as much about as lucky breaks/opportunities than talent or intellect.

Not at all - It's why I wouln't classify Bruce as a shite manager at all as he has acheived success lower down - even if he doesn't have the best reputation.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I think the genius of Fergie gave them the illusion that they can do the job. What he does seems simple, and maybe it's that simple if only they have his Charisma, drives, and visions.

Yeah probably. I also suspect that the respect for Fergie in the game gave his former players a level of opportunity that maybe players who have worked under different manager

Which is completely is completely understandable if you were hiring some one and they had worked under Fergie then of course they are going to have an advantage as people will be hoping some of the genius has rubbed off.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

I guess it depends what you mean by 'fail' as managers.

A select few managers win major trophies, and almost none of those are currently British. 'Success' for a British manager is currently getting themselves on the managerial merry-go-round and having some promotions within the EFL. But there'll also be some relegations and sackings that go with that and most will have a lot more sackings than trophies on their CV.

I'd say the ones who 'failed' are those who only had a job or two and didn't get on the managerial merry-go-round, like Phil Neville and Paul Scholes. Managers like Bruce, Hughes and Robson 'achieved' what the vast amount of British managers can expect to do so I wouldn't say they failed as managers.

 

[House Mkhitaryan]

They are trying to implement tactics that worked in 10-20 years ago. The modern game has moved on from what worked during Fergie's time. They also don't have the motivational, man-management skills nor ability to understand squad rotation. Ole, for example, is trying to manage an outdated style as a Fergie clone when he possesses a fraction of the skill Fergie had and has no idea how to adapt to the modern game.

 

[King_Cantona07]

Because they try to replicate the SAF model, even Ole is trying it and failing. SAF model worked because the person delivering the model and talks is SAF. Bit like "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse" dialogue delivered by an average actor compared to the original actor. Same is happening here I believe.

 

[Natener]

SAF's greatest quality is his man management, and by many accounts he handles players differently to what suits them individually. His 'disciples' would have experienced his man management through their own individual perspective and maybe of those close mates around them. None of them I think would be able to master the full spectrum of SAF's ability. That's why none can replicate SAF.

 

[Revaulx]

Not a big surprise though. Being convinced it all comes down to character, hard work and single-minded loyalty is a great, great trait for a midfielder and a team captain, but a debilitating flaw for a manager.

And underestimating his own considerable footballing intelligence and technical skill. Souness was largely the same.

 

[Revaulx]

Yeah probably. I also suspect that the respect for Fergie in the game gave his former players a level of opportunity that maybe players who have worked under different manager

Which is completely is completely understandable if you were hiring some one and they had worked under Fergie then of course they are going to have an advantage as people will be hoping some of the genius has rubbed off.

Leeds believed this in the 80s, giving the manager’s job to three ex-Revie players in a row.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Who would the comparison point be? As in which manager has had a lot of successful managers of the future play under him? One of the Barca managers maybe?

Yeah that’s a much better question. Maybe Pep and Enrique once played under the same manager? And it’s not as though Enrique is an undisputed great.

Although is is definitely possible that the best managers around generally didn’t play at a very high level. That seems to be a bit of a recurring theme?

 

[sincher]

If you think about it, very few managers can consider their careers to be definite successes, so there is not really anything in this but the numbers. I mean if you include Bruce, Hughes and Strachan, for example, as failures that seems pretty harsh considering the hundreds of games they have managed at a high level.

 

[Noc-Z]

I think because we are mostly talking about ex-players - he didn't teach them to be managers, they aren't managerial disciples - he treated them and managed them as players, that's all. Then they are out in the World as managers with no stabilisers. They've got a memory of how Sir Alex did things but they don't know why, they don't have the knowledge. And they don't have the spirit and attitude. You can't teach what Sir Alex had, and he didn't try to.

 

[GazTheLegend]

@Annihilate Now! Define success or failure. Managing a Premier League club = elite level manager. Steve Bruce achieved that, Mark Hughes did as well. So I'd question what you consider "failure", in part because there's only 4 trophies a manager can win per season and obviously these guys were not good enough to do that, but they weren't exactly bad managers either, really, much like Solskjaer I would argue as well.

Failure for Manchester United is not winning the league, success for Burnley or whoever is being IN the Premier League (unless a sugar daddy owner comes in, like at Leicester or Aston Villa or whoever, who then raises that bar)

 

[Dan_F]

Who would the comparison point be? As in which manager has had a lot of successful managers of the future play under him? One of the Barca managers maybe?

If so my immediate thought would be that there was culturally and structurally less emphasis within the club on formalised tactical and stylistic considerations than there was at a club like Barca. If you're molded as a footballer within clubs that place greater emphasis on that then presumably that will shape your development as a manager.

Or to put it a different way, SAF was an extremely exceptional manager. And if most people try to manage in a style that emulates his, they will likely fail by dint of not being the exceptional person that he was. Whereas there are probably other less-exceptional but still top-level managers whose style and strong points would be easier to emulate.

Yet still no one answers your first sentence. How many current top managers have been top players too? then think about how many of those came under the same manager, there must be hardly any.

Not content with being shit now, people seem desperate to also dismiss our previous success because we played 442 or something.