Why do ole & players think a draw is an acceptable result

oz insomniac

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When the owners main thoughts in purchasing Man Utd is income stream, and Teflon Ed has no friggin idea, guess what. - we are a reflection of Glazers lack of interest in soccer/football and a CEO who when pressed pays overs and keeps players who are long past it.

it’s been well,documented that the team needed a mobile CB, a RW and an actual goal scorer. What did we get, answer none of the above. Welcome to WallyWorld, owners that understand needs for NFL and act accordingly, and watch dividends roll in from a club they have never spent any of their own money on.

expect more of the same, Glazers, Woodward, Judge and unfortunately Ole are here for the long run, not a good thought.
 

JuriM

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90% it's due this seasons "special" circumstances. Losing a point is worse than risking to gain the 2 more. If we would have a "normal" season, I don't think we would hear it.
 

Spaghetti

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The managers mentality, tonight’s result was a loss in my books. We sacked LVG after he won the FA Cup so if we keep that same criteria then Ole should be gone tomorrow!
Also because Mourinho was available. There is no obvious choice now.

Plus, things are generally going a lot better than under Van Gaal in my opinion. People expecting perfect performances every week are even more frustrating than the poor performances themselves. Acting like every day was a trip to Disney World under Ferguson.
 

drdoityourself

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Drives me nuts. It's the big things like not making attacking substitutions or making the subs to late.

It's also the small things, when the players show no poise to mount any sort of pressure when chasing a goal.

Wan-Bissaka took more than 30 seconds to make a throw-in 86 minutes into the game.* When Shaw made a couple of fouls at the end, he threw the ball away 10 yards so Palace were able to take a lot more time to take the free kick. They just muck about, even in games we're meant to dominate they rarely show any urgency and just watch the time go by.

*Please get a throw-in coach for Wan Bissaka. He takes forever and when he takes them they're usually aimed at the penile area of the receiver so they really struggle to get the ball under control or do anything of note.
 

RashyForPM

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What I meant is that James started the whole move by running up the right wing and creating a bit of space before the play was switched and the cross came in. Without James on the pitch the cross is not even coming in to meet a player unmarked in the middle.

However both Cavani and James should have been on the pitch normally and a holding mid sacrificed.
Fair enough, and I do agree with your second paragraph. How we ended the game with two defensive midfielders was just inexplicable and weird.
 

Zoo

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He is too cautious and wedded to his 4-2-3-1 unless he has specifically targeted games where he can practice something different beforehand (the cowardly shambles with a back 5 in Leipzig springs to mind).

In a game like lat night it’s guaranteed that Fergie would have changed to 2 strikers through the middle, committed more bodies forward and had a go. Risk/reward.
 

Forevergiggs1

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I have seen us lose games like that in LVG and Jose’s tenures, and earlier in Olés.

I’m not happy with the draw or the performance, or the tactics which should be questioned, but overall, this shit run was going to happen with the schedule the way it is.

The only ones not affected are the extreme financially doped, ped-taking, COVID-leveraging plastic irrelevant cheats who are sports washed by an entire oil rich and corrupt state. Actually, ignore all of that, and then we I’m sure we can put our respective runs in perspective.
What has City got to do with us losing against. SU, drawing against a horrible Arsenal side, WBA, Chelsea, against a half depleted Crystal Palace? We've been very lucky with injuries and have a big enough squad to deal with our schedule. Our problem is mentality and that comes from the top.
 

clarkydaz

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I'm getting the feeling that he knows Top 4 is a dead cert, and he's going to go all in for one of the cups.

Was there any need for the likes of Bruno and AWB or Rashford from the bench against Sociedad for example? He's making odd decisions before and during games.
top 4 isnt a dead cert. Teams below us have a game in hand, and city will likely pummel us on sunday
 

Maticmaker

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I don't think that Ole and the players find draws acceptable, but in terms of if you 'can't win, don't lose' and if you keep clean sheets you won't lose, then its 'an outcome'... of sorts.
Our problem seems to be we set out in many games with an attitude of 'it will be alright on the night' rather than we are going to 'storm this one'. Even our best performance (in my opinion against Leeds) almost happened by accident We are not , even when in the ascendancy, ruthless enough; the 9-0 against Southampton could have been 11 or 12 -0, but we eased off.
 

NotoriousISSY

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top 4 isnt a dead cert. Teams below us have a game in hand, and city will likely pummel us on sunday
I don't think it's a dead cert, but the approach the team and the manager are taking are showing signs of them taking their foot off the gas because the likes of Liverpool and Leicester are in equally bad or worse form.

Chelsea seem to be the only team in form, City aside of course.
 

Becks00

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I go back to his comment that ‘we aren’t in a title race’ when we were top of the league. A United manager should not be saying that.
As much as I believe Ole as done the best he can with the team and we should be looking to replace him, still that comment is being taking a little out of context. He said that to take pressure off the team in case we had the kind of form we went on to have and Fergie said several outlandish things too for the same purpose even when we where top dog.
 

largelyworried

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I found it bizarre last night that with 10 seconds to go, we get a free kick on the half way line, then choose to pass it among the defenders for a bit til the whistle went. Launching a high ball into the box with 10 seconds to go might be a low success strategy, but its more likely to succeed than doing nothing at all. We should have had all 10 outfielders up front going for the ball, not three players on the halfway line. It really did look like we'd settled for a point.
 

Adam-Utd

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It seems like they think just not losing is good enough.

I'd rather win 4 and lose 3 than draw 7. Draws are such a waste.

It's clear though that the target is just the top 4. Even when we were top of the league he never looked to push us on. His comments about us never being in the title race showed.

I was waiting for them to really go for it in the last 30, put in a bit of fight and energy and settle the game - but it never came.

You'd think Ole would be on the sideline waving them forward but he just stood there looking lost. Unfortunately the cracks are forming again and i'm not sure they'll be papered over this time.
 

Jeppers7

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As much as I believe Ole as done the best he can with the team and we should be looking to replace him, still that comment is being taking a little out of context. He said that to take pressure off the team in case we had the kind of form we went on to have and Fergie said several outlandish things too for the same purpose even when we where top dog.
Take the pressure off and see what happens. It was sink or swim time. Let’s see what we can do. Could really have been a great chance to get us on the road to success, even though I doubt we’d have won it. A chance to have a go. He blew it with those comments.
 

Buster15

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Because they don't really have a winning mentally. In other words, they lack confidence in themselves, both individually and collectively.
I do believe that Ole is key to this.
 

justsomebloke

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I don’t think there’s any speculation or conjecture involved. Surely the lack of energy and passion was evident against Palace? You are either an eternal optimist or in denial.

The players may not be happy with a draw but nobody can deny that our baseline for what a decent performance constitutes has been severely lowered over the past 7 years. It’s not entirely the managers fault but he has to take some blame.
Of course there is speculation and conjecture involved. One thing is to note that the performance or energy levels isn't good enough, on which I would think we all agree, another is to explain that by taking it as a fact that this is due to a lack of will, motivation, attitude, standards and ambition. For reasons which ought to be obvious. It's fair enough to raise the question, but not one man jack here has anything remotely close to the necessary knowledge to answer it with confidence. Same goes for "our baseline for what a decent performance constitutes". What the feck does that even mean? Whose baseline? Yours? Mine? Ours? The managers? The players? Who defines it? What does it include? The truth is, it's a pointless and imaginary concept. It's just a different way of repeating the same claim of lacking will, motivation, attitude, standards and ambition, by pretending it's a fact. There are posters on this thread who actually think we played for a draw yesterday, or at least was content with one.
 
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justsomebloke

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We were sleepwalking throughout that game. And Ole waited until the 75th minute to change things. I don't give a shit who the personnel is, fecking change things up if it's not obviously working. Nope, we were happy to play two CDMs against a Palace who didn't want to attack.
We do not play two CDMs. We play two central midfielders. As does everyone else who uses the 4231 formation. Otherwise it wouldn't be 4231.
 

justsomebloke

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Ole is saving his own skin. This whole idea he cares about the United ethos is manufactured rubbish. He’s played for the draw near the end for two games in a row now. I couldn’t help but laugh at the James for Cavani sub. Of course Ole wanted to keep the defensive shape rather than go for 3 points.
That is just absolutely ridiculous. James was pretty much the only option he had on the bench, for an attacking substitution.
 

Judas

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I found it bizarre last night that with 10 seconds to go, we get a free kick on the half way line, then choose to pass it among the defenders for a bit til the whistle went. Launching a high ball into the box with 10 seconds to go might be a low success strategy, but its more likely to succeed than doing nothing at all. We should have had all 10 outfielders up front going for the ball, not three players on the halfway line. It really did look like we'd settled for a point.
This moment killed me. It summed up the managers true feelings on winning games vs losing them.
 

Westerkerk

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I don't see any actual evidence that the manager, coaches or players think drawing is 'acceptable' - they played badly, not for the first time this season, and we as fans want them to win, so in that sense it is 'unacceptable', but to suggest that a team that is currently second in the league thinks drawing games is 'acceptable' is ridiculous and based on nothing more than fan frustration.

Let's be honest, playing badly and drawing is better than playing badly and losing, hell, sometimes (often, in fact) we have played badly and won. Do you therefore think the manager, coaches and players think it's 'acceptable' to play badly and win? or play badly and lose?

The real core of the matter is in exactly what the manager said. We need to find that spark again. At heart of the problem is where that spark has gone, and why it was so fleeting in the first place. Addressing that, and the ability to turn it into consistently good performances, is the measure of success we should be judging the manager, coaches and players with.
 

DomesticTadpole

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I don't see any actual evidence that the manager, coaches or players think drawing is 'acceptable' - they played badly, not for the first time this season, and we as fans want them to win, so in that sense it is 'unacceptable', but to suggest that a team that is currently second in the league thinks drawing games is 'acceptable' is ridiculous and based on nothing more than fan frustration.

Let's be honest, playing badly and drawing is better than playing badly and losing, hell, sometimes (often, in fact) we have played badly and won. Do you therefore think the manager, coaches and players think it's 'acceptable' to play badly and win? or play badly and lose?

The real core of the matter is in exactly what the manager said. We need to find that spark again. At heart of the problem is where that spark has gone, and why it was so fleeting in the first place. Addressing that, and the ability to turn it into consistently good performances, is the measure of success we should be judging the manager, coaches and players with.
I'll go and light a fire under them. That might get the spark back. To be fair losing Pogba has proved a calamity.
 

Westerkerk

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I'll go and light a fire under them. That might get the spark back. To be fair losing Pogba has proved a calamity.
The only thing it proves is we aren't good or dynamic enough to revert to a plan B when a working plan A goes down the toilet. Maybe the 'spark' in question comes more from the midfield being skilled, able and forthright enough to take a risk - and maybe Pogba stepping up created that fire for those handful of games.

I think the management days of old, creating a 'spark' by shouting and balling at players after a poor game is exactly that, a thing of the past. In any walk of life, management just doesn't work like that anymore. We like to think it does because we want to punish the players for a poor performance. It's as hard nowadays to create a spark like that than it is to ride the wave of something that works.

The spark has got to come from within, and I don't believe we have the players who are dynamic enough to consistently, as a group, get themselves pumped up in a game in which they have a) not started well, and b) not prepared for well physically or mentally. It has nothing to do with accepting drab football and poor results as adequate.

Dynamism, adaptability and taking risks is very important in top tier teams right now. I can only think of Fernandes and Pogba who possess these traits. There's a reason Fernandes had the most misplaced passes at one point last night, and it's not all on him.
 

hobbers

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Because none of them are winners, except Bruno and Cavani.

Maguire and Matic are the only other outfield players to have won league titles and are clearly both not habitual winners in any shape or form. Matic has proved that throughout his career and Maguire will no doubt go on to prove it.

The mentality with the rest is always "a draw is fine", "top four is good enough".
 

Fluctuation0161

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If you are picked to be on the bench for United then you should be good enough to come on if needed. Do you think Fergie just sits there and let's the game fizzle out without giving it a go at all . Throw another attacking kid on and take a gamble . In the current premier league a draw is such a useless result
You've not answered the question?

If I recall he brought on McTominay as an attacking midfielder. His recent scoring record is quite good.

The only alternative is an untested RW, Diallo. Yes, you could argue you would have preferred to gamble on him to win us the game, but it is hardly like Ole has left Lionel Messi sat on the bench is it?
 

Zeno

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I don't see any actual evidence that the manager, coaches or players think drawing is 'acceptable' - they played badly, not for the first time this season, and we as fans want them to win, so in that sense it is 'unacceptable', but to suggest that a team that is currently second in the league thinks drawing games is 'acceptable' is ridiculous and based on nothing more than fan frustration.

Let's be honest, playing badly and drawing is better than playing badly and losing, hell, sometimes (often, in fact) we have played badly and won. Do you therefore think the manager, coaches and players think it's 'acceptable' to play badly and win? or play badly and lose?

The real core of the matter is in exactly what the manager said. We need to find that spark again. At heart of the problem is where that spark has gone, and why it was so fleeting in the first place. Addressing that, and the ability to turn it into consistently good performances, is the measure of success we should be judging the manager, coaches and players with.
The ‘spark’ will return when there is something at stake. The sucker punches against Sheffield United and Everton floored us. League over. Top 4 is enough when Top 4 is the best that is available.

But this is a good team. Watch the spark return for the Cups.
 

Ayush_reddevil

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You've not answered the question?

If I recall he brought on McTominay as an attacking midfielder. His recent scoring record is quite good.

The only alternative is an untested RW, Diallo. Yes, you could argue you would have preferred to gamble on him to win us the game, but it is hardly like Ole has left Lionel Messi sat on the bench is it?

Again he made two subs and we finished the game with zero attacking ideas . He had Diallo & Shoretire on the bench . Also if he didn't think that they are useful then why did he let Lingard go out on loan. There are loads of subs and tactical changes you can make to try and open the game but he basically was ok with a point. Take one of the defenders off and just say feck it I am not here for a day
 

justsomebloke

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Then why take off your only match winner!? Go for the win, take off Fred and bring on James.
Presumably because he was out of juice?
Fear is driving his management. He's going out to not lose games, rather than to win them. Shocking that a club the size of utd should have that outlook. You have top 4 players, although the mentality of some of them is open to question. You don't have an elite quality manager, though.
And where exactly did you gain this amazing level of insight into the workings of the manager's mind? Are you his valet, by any chance?
 

Giggsy13

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Presumably because he was out of juice?


And where exactly did you gain this amazing level of insight into the workings of the manager's mind? Are you his valet, by any chance?
We can only judge Ole by his actions and in game management. Even if you’re an ardent Ole in supporter you can’t say he’s done a good job consistently with his in game management and substitutions. As a supporter, you can only assess his mindset from this, so it’s fair to say that Ole was trying to at least save the draw rather than go for the win by keeping our defensive shape, even though we almost conceded a late winner anyways. Was Ole limited by a lack of options, of course. But he’s the manager and he needs to adjust to find a way to get a result. This is where he is levels below Pep or Klopp.
 
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United Hobbit

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I go back to his comment that ‘we aren’t in a title race’ when we were top of the league. A United manager should not be saying that.
That intrigued me when he made them at the time. Yes we probably weren't going to win the title but AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME we were bang in contention, he did more than one interview where he downplayed it. I wondered at the time if he was saying the same message in the dressing room, in which case how would he get the players fired up.

Hes just a bit vanilla. For example his body language on the touchline, his lack of challenging decisions. Also I still can't see him hairdrying players. I know people says he can but I just can't see it. Probably knowing the culture he came into he doesn't dare upset them. There's times for being nice and times to put the world's biggest rocket up them. For example half time yesterday....

Makes you wonder if the reports of the clashes in the dressing room with Bruno are true.

I'd swap the captaincy from Harry to Bruno. Harry is like Ole, very vanilla and meek.

Ole's mannerisms would probably be perfect for a mid table club like a Southampton. As manager of United you need that something extra. Can you imagine Sir Alex just sat there during yesterday's "performance?"
 

justsomebloke

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We can only judge Ole by his actions and in game management. Even if you’re an ardent Ole in supporter you can’t say he’s done a good job consistently with his in game management and substitutions. As a supporter, you can only assess his mindset from this, so it’s fair to say that Ole was trying to at least save the draw rather than go for the win by keeping our defensive shape, even though we almost conceded a late winner anyways. Was Ole limited by a lack of options, of course. But he’s the manager and he needs to adjust to find a way to get a result. This is where he is levels below Pep or Klopp.
I don't think it's reasonable or fair at all. You don't know what he was trying to do or not, and it's all too easy to just make whatever assumptions you want. It's fair to raise the question, but neither you or anybody else around here can answer it. General plausibility would suggest that they weren't content with a point yesterday - I mean, why would they be? They're a much better team than Palace, dropping two points can't easily be afforded in the fight for 2nd place/top 4, and they all know very well that no one else is going to see that as anything other than a fiasco. And in any case, it's not like there's not better things to worry about than conjectural judgments about underlying character flaws. The team currently plays far below its usual level - what's wrong?

Moaning about low standards or cowardice may provide a simple and emotionally satisfying explanation for frustrated fans, but it illuminates nothing. It's an explanation that can't be proven or disproven, which makes it comfy to entertain, but also useless. It doesn't bring you anywhere. If you're going to simply believe the manager and the team lacks an ambition to win, well then, nothing else matters much. Good performances and results will be just a mirage - as soon as there's anything real on the line, they'll be certain to fold. Training won't fix it, rest won't fix it, tactics won't fix it, and new signings won't fix it either, at least not just a few of them. You just put yourself mentally in a place where you assume it's all gone to shite, and if you do that, that's all you're going to see (obviously, I don't mean YOU in particular here).

And in any case, it would make far more sense to assume the players and the manager care deeply whether they win, draw or lose, are pretty desperate to achieve it and are doing their best to get there. This would normally be the case, after all. They all seem very conscious that nothing other than winning titles will do at United. By all accounts, they are a tight-knit group that isn't plagued by internal divisions or lack of commitment the way some of our previous squads have been. They know from their own record how good they can be. They should lack neither confidence or ambition. All teams go through bad spells, like we are doing now. If you step out of your own emotions for a minute and consider the matter calmly, do you really think it looks plausible that the reason they're playing badly for the moment is that they're cowards?
 
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Stacks

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Because none of them are winners, except Bruno and Cavani.

Maguire and Matic are the only other outfield players to have won league titles and are clearly both not habitual winners in any shape or form. Matic has proved that throughout his career and Maguire will no doubt go on to prove it.

The mentality with the rest is always "a draw is fine", "top four is good enough".
Maguire has not won a league title. Pogba and De Gea have. Jones too.
 

hobbers

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Maguire has not won a league title. Pogba and De Gea have. Jones too.
:lol: Touche. Matic was the only title winner out there then yesterday, and he is famous for down-toolsing every other season.

I said outfield and Pogba isn't in the squad/wants to leave anyway.
 

Judas

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I think we're just seeing a points return our performances actually deserve now, its balances out after some quite lucky wins over the last few months.

I was a bit more "win at all costs, who cares how we play!" when we were closer to City and we had a tiny whiff of being in a title race, however naive and unrealistic it was. But now, to be having another season of us just dragging along is a bit sad to watch. I don't see that much improvement, not nearly enough, in the key areas.