Why don’t we scout Sao Paulo and other Brazilian clubs instead of overpaying feeder clubs?

[UnofficialDevil]

Casemiro was bought by Madrid from Sao Paulo for 6m, Anthony was bought by Ajax just a year ago from Sao Paulo for 15m.
Why can't we just scout Sao Paulo for their best players and loan them out to a partner club like we had with Royal Antwerp. Or even loan them out to flippin Ajax!
We can obviously outbid clubs like Porto and Ajax for those players, like if we were both going for Anthony last summer, we could easily outmuscle Ajax for him.

There is another really good 22 year old box to box midfielder playing for Corinthians called De Queiros for example. He will probably be sold from Porto to someone for 100m in a couple of years.
Cant we just scout the 2 top Brazilian clubs and overpay them for their players instead of European clubs.

 

[Red the Bear]

We don't have the scouts and they'd probably rather go to somewhere like Madrid or barca or Italy if they could.

I hope this changed but as it stands it's gonna be more of the same.

Perhaps we should poach madrid's talent finder, he's done a pretty decent job.

 

[Red the Bear]

Also many of them might prefer a move to a smaller club to let them grow naturally without the pressured of being associated with a big club and the expectation that comes with it.

So that leaves us in an unfortunate situation of:

A : would rather go to a smaller club so we'd be out of the race immediately.

B : won't mind the pressures of going big but then we'd be at a disadvantage if any of the Spanish or (formerly) Italian big boys enter the fray.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

We don't have the scouts and they'd probably rather go to somewhere like Madrid or barca or Italy if they could.

I hope this changed but as it stands it's gonna be more of the same.

Perhaps we should poach madrid's talent finder, he's done a pretty decent job.

Well we need to set up a scouting network in Brazil then. If Ajax can we can. We can outspend clubs like Ajax so we have the upper hand.

 

[Dominos]

The issue is the PL is a much bigger step up, and the player won't get the same opportunities to develop here as we need ready made players.

We could buy them and loan them out for a year or 2 to develop elsewhere. We tried this sort of speculative purchase with Pellistri and it's not working out great so you need to select the right talent and send them to the right club.

I do think in general we need to start buying players at an earlier stage of their career before they become a £50+m player. We don't know how the Malacia signing will turn out, but surely we need to start mixing in these sorts of affordable talents alongside the big names.

Every player we buy seems to cost us 50m minimum, and we end up leaving glaring weaknesses in the team every window because we don't have the unlimited budget to fix every problem position.

 

[CarbonStoolBites]

I’m not writing these lads off by any means but we went that route with Pellistri and Diallo (well sort of), I assume going that route most transfers would end up unsuccessful, maybe 1 out of 5 would come good. Not to mention how easier that is for a young player to establish himself at Ajax and the Dutch league than United in the Premier League.

Not sure how much of a scouting network we have in South America but we should be on top of it and be aware of exciting young talents in the region, obviously.

I don’t know what kind of vibes I’m getting with Antony, I just hope he does well and makes us a better team, regardless of the fee.

 

[SportingCP96]

Big clubs don’t have the time to develop players. United and all these teams are always in win now mode. Furthermore they don’t have the training level of clubs like Ajax and the 3 Portuguese clubs to develop these young guys into elite players.

A lotThese guys also would never go to United or others at such a young age because it will stall their development.

Madrid for example loaned out Casemiro to Porto who developed him. The problem with that is clube like Porto , Benfica , Sporting, and Ajax are not feeder clubs and don’t find the worth in developing a player for another club and seeing no transfer profit. A lot of these young Brazilian and South Americans players will choose the Portuguese or Ajax over United anyways because it makes more sense.

Of course their are exceptions of elite talent like Neymar and Vinicius who can make the jump right away but they are few and far between.

 

[SportingCP96]

Well we need to set up a scouting network in Brazil then. If Ajax can we can. We can outspend clubs like Ajax so we have the upper hand.

Ya but they won’t want to go to United right away. If they are smart that is. You can agree a few but the player might not want true move. Every situation is different though.

 

[Red the Bear]

Well we need to set up a scouting network in Brazil then. If Ajax can we can. We can outspend clubs like Ajax so we have the upper hand.

We could but then it goes back to my first and second point in my other post.

Also many of them might prefer a move to a smaller club to let them grow naturally without the pressured of being associated with a big club and the expectation that comes with it.

So that leaves us in an unfortunate situation of:

A : would rather go to a smaller club so we'd be out of the race immediately.

B : won't mind the pressures of going big but then we'd be at a disadvantage if any of the Spanish or (formerly) Italian big boys enter the fray.

 

[TsuWave]

Also many of them might prefer a move to a smaller club to let them grow naturally without the pressured of being associated with a big club and the expectation that comes with it.

So that leaves us in an unfortunate situation of:

A : would rather go to a smaller club so we'd be out of the race immediately.

B : won't mind the pressures of going big but then we'd be at a disadvantage if any of the Spanish or (formerly) Italian big boys enter the fray.

I guarantee you there aren’t many, if any, players in the Brazilian league that would pass on a transfer move to United because they’d rather go to a smaller club They’d bite your hand off to come, whether they’d be ready for the step up is a different conversation

 

[SportingCP96]

I guarantee you there aren’t many, if any, players in the Brazilian league that would pass on a transfer move to United because they’d rather go to a smaller club

I would be willing to wager many would choose the 3 Portuguese giants over United. Unless they are a Neymar or Vinicius level player.

United can not and does not have the track record of developing players the same way those other guys do. Smart career move is Portugal and then big money move.

 

[Tarrou]

isn't it quite tricky to get work permits for south americans in the UK or something?

Da Silva twins held portuguese passports iirc which was one of the reasons we went for them

 

[Red the Bear]

I guarantee you there aren’t many, if any, players in the Brazilian league that would pass on a transfer move to United because they’d rather go to a smaller club They’d bite your hand off to come, whether they’d be ready for the step up is a different conversation

I disagree, hell we can't do even do it in Europe with players who may like united, we couldn't get sesko for example who chose to go to Leipzig as he would supposedly develop better, many other examples as well.

As SportingCP96 said, Portugal has a great track record of developing these young players so I'm pretty sure many of them would prefer developing there with a more familiar culture and the identical language helping them to settle in better.

If they're neymar , vinicius level they're more likely to ned up in Spain than in England.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

United can not and does not have the track record of developing players the same way those other guys do. Smart career move is Portugal and then big money move.

Erm..Ronaldo? We only developed him into the best player in the world.

 

[Red the Bear]

Erm..Ronaldo? We only developed him to the best player in the world.

We had Fergie and Ronaldo was special, it also took a lot of faith for him to get there, not many would get that.

We got lucky with the timing as well as we had dropped out of the title race but had enough quality to be ahead of the rest so that was a decent scenario for him to get further along his develop.

For example do you think the backdrop of a top 4 fight is a conducive environment for nurturing such talent?

 

[UnofficialDevil]

We had Fergie and Ronaldo was special, it also took a lot of faith for him to get there, not many would get that.

We got lucky with the timing as well as we had dropped out of the title race but had enough quality to be ahead of the rest so that was a decent scenario for him to get further along his develop.

For example do you think the backdrop of a top 4 fight is a conducive environment for nurturing such talent?

But hang on. Antony joined Ajax only last summer. What makes you think he wouldn't have wanted to join us instead? We were also in the champions league. Don't see why he would have chosen Ajax over us just 12 months ago.

 

[Longlivekeano]

Work permit due to lack of international caps?

 

[Red the Bear]

But hang on. Antony joined Ajax only last summer. What makes you think he wouldn't have wanted to join us instead? We were also in the champions league. Don't see why he would have chosen Ajax over us just 12 months ago.

I certainly agree that we should amp up our scouts department over seas and even Africa for example (gold mine for talent) but I don't think it's gonna be that easy, in fact if we do get some they may not develop as expected and end up as disappointments but still worth a try.

In regards to Antony he went to a club that would afford him many first team appearances by making him first choice, he may thought he'd not be able to get that at United after all we'd just paid a record amount to get Sancho to fill that role.

 

[RedOrange]

This would involve a lot more work for club executives. They're already busy enough with club business that they're only getting 36 holes of golf in a day and they won't be able to maintain a handicap of 10 if they're playing any less than that.

Also there was a TIFO video about this exact subject recently which also answers the questions about work permits:

 

[OleGunnar20]

While I agree that the sensible move for most of these youngsters would be a step before the big move, I don't think you'd have trouble convincing them to take the jump straight to us when considering the guaranteed extra money they'll be making - cash they'll never earn otherwise if they fail at one of these inbetween clubs.case dependent as all things of course.

I've no idea how the visas work these days but it's clear we need better scouting across the glove at the moment, South America included. Just look at Caicedo and Alvarez as two examples of absolute bargains who'd be ideal for us right about now.

 

[Ted Lasso]

Doesn't this have a lot to do with work permits?

 

[Charles Miller]

Angelo(17) winger from Santos
Danilo(21) DM from Palmeiras
Giovani(18) winger Palmeiras
Vitor Roque(17) CF Athletico Paranaense.

 

[monosierra]

I thought UK clubs are at a massive disadvantage compared to some continental European clubs due to the UK work visa restrictions?

 

[Robertd0803]

Isnt it stupidly difficult to get work permits in the UK for just about anyone thats not a full international these days?

 

[Red the Bear]

Anyway UnofficialDevil makes a good point about just having to monitor their big clubs because after it does seem that most of the talent comes out of there(obviously) so we'd just need to set up a scouting operation of because, river plate in Argentina and the likes of sao Paolo, palmiras, flamengo etc etc in Brazil and the same with other countries.
.shouldn't be too hard as I imagine some posters here could bame the upcoming big prospects from over there.

 

[Nights]

Doesn't this have a lot to do with work permits?

Yes, it’s been traditionally much harder to get work permits for players that aren’t yet established (plays in NT etc). Remember Fergie and Gill mentioning it as well.

 

[Boondog]

Why don't we?

 

[Ema_datsi]

Because it’d take some intelligence, planning, networking with non-English speaking football people, and cost money. Joel Glazer would rather panic buy with one week left in the transfer window and pretend that was his master plan all along.

 

[ryansgirl]

There are cultural and social reasons too that South American players such as the Brazilians prefer the European leagues of Italy, Spain and Portugal - traditional ties, some similarities in culture and more networks for South American expats there. As well as better weather which does make a difference for some people.

 

[SportingCP96]

Erm..Ronaldo? We only developed him into the best player in the world.

Like I said, elite player talent. That’s the few and far between part.

 

[TsuWave]

I disagree, hell we can't do even do it in Europe with players who may like united, we couldn't get sesko for example who chose to go to Leipzig as he would supposedly develop better, many other examples as well.

Every report of a supposed failed transfer doesn't equate to the player choosing to go X rather than United. Where are you getting this Sesko stuff from? By most accounts we didn't even have an agreement with his club

 

[cyril C]

Big clubs don’t have the time to develop players. United and all these teams are always in win now mode. Furthermore they don’t have the training level of clubs like Ajax and the 3 Portuguese clubs to develop these young guys into elite players.

A lotThese guys also would never go to United or others at such a young age because it will stall their development.

Madrid for example loaned out Casemiro to Porto who developed him. The problem with that is clube like Porto , Benfica , Sporting, and Ajax are not feeder clubs and don’t find the worth in developing a player for another club and seeing no transfer profit. A lot of these young Brazilian and South Americans players will choose the Portuguese or Ajax over United anyways because it makes more sense.

Of course their are exceptions of elite talent like Neymar and Vinicius who can make the jump right away but they are few and far between.

Apart from the players' development, most South American clubs/parent require some kind of under-table deal, which we would like to avoid. Don't assume they are all cheap, the talent ones are just as expensive, total cost wise, as any young English players.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

But hang on. Antony joined Ajax only last summer. What makes you think he wouldn't have wanted to join us instead? We were also in the champions league. Don't see why he would have chosen Ajax over us just 12 months ago.

Wrong, Antony joined Ajax in Feb 2020, so he's been there for more than 2 years.

 

[jeepers]

Work permits, that’s why we can’t get the best talent from SA and Africa. We should go the FM route and get a bunch of feeder clubs in Spain, Belgium and Netherlands and ship the talents out there. Did I say FM route? I mean the Chelsea route.

 

[Sir Matt]

Work permits, that’s why we can’t get the best talent from SA and Africa. We should go the FM route and get a bunch of feeder clubs in Spain, Belgium and Netherlands and ship the talents out there. Did I say FM route? I mean the Chelsea route.

Well if Jim Radcliffe buys United, he already owns Nice.

 

[bringbackbebe]

Work permit due to lack of international caps?

Correct, unless the player has European ancestry and can get a Eu/UK passport. We've been able to get players like Rodrigo Possebon, Giuseppe Rossi etc through this route. Wonder if Rafael/Fabio had a Eu passport as well or did we manage to get an exception?

 

[stw2022]

For every success there's fifty who don't make it. Can't handle the rigours of even the tamest European leagues, can't acclimatise, young lads getting homesick or simply just not being as good as their potential.

Paying feeder clubs is the price larger clubs pay for someone else doing most of that donkey work and demonstrating that someone at least stands half a chance of settling in and being able to cope with life in European football. Though even that's still a considerable gamble. But less of one.


I'd sooner pay £84m for a player who has adapted to playing in a European league than £10m for several players who might all decide they prefer life in South America after all

 

[DannyDee]

Didn't we do this for the Twins and Possebon? Only Raphael really turned out well (until the injuries). Plus outside of very top talents, it is very difficult to integrate unproven young players in the EPL while among the bigger 6 clubs, especially foreign nationals.

Historically, we have been more miss with South Americans than pretty much anywhere else. Hopefully Casemiro and Antony (if he comes are successes).

 

[FatTails]

Did anyone mention the work permit thing yet?

 

[Roboc7]

Work permit due to lack of international caps?

That was the case historically but post Brexit it’s much easier to get work permits for players from South America. There is different criteria now, which is why Arsenal were able to sign Marquinhos who has never played for Brazil.