Why have our academy products become so bad?

[Nani Nana]

Hello all,

Man United used to stand for youth products, the class of 1992 and so on.

The impending Cucurella deal disavows Alvaro Fernandez, our much taunted academy left back. We have spent enormous money on a Chelsea academy product. The broader picture is we start the season with just one academy product guaranteed a starting place in Rashford.

The unfortunate events around Mason Greenwood should not make us oblivious to the reality that our academy products have become terrible down the years. Mejbri et al simply do not have what it takes to cut it at the club.

Why is it so that Man United's academy has fallen so far behind others around Europe? Whilst we all focus on transfers, has our main shortcoming not been being able to produce class homegrown products for years?

 

[Denis79]

We have fallen far behind?

 

[AndySmith1990]

Glazers...

 

[RoadTrip]

1) Declining relative quality of our youth set up and facilities.
2) Lack of quality coming through the door in the first place. Lots more good / better options nowadays.

 

[Orange Tree]

We used to use academy players to add depth to our squad, hence we have players like Lingard and McTominay came through.

It seems like we pivoted to overpay for average players for depth. Academy players don't have many chance to impress.

 

[Alex B]

I'm not convinced we have fallen behind too much. Perhaps comparing to our history (Busby Babes/CO92) then it can be viewed as not what it was, but relative to the current competition I think we are there or thereabouts and that is reflected in the performances of the youth team.
In the past decade we have brought through many players who have either made a significant amount of appearances for ourselves or for other PL teams. Including Greenwood there is McTominay, Rashford currently in and around the first team with Mainoo knocking on the door. With LVG we saw many given an opportunity and I think reading your post that is what it boils down to - opportunity. I too am disappointed that Fernandez is not being given the opportunity to deputise at LB but it is more a symptom of the situation we are in rather than the lack of quality produced from the academy. In my opinion at least

 

[userman]

Is it really that bad though? We have Rashford as a key player, and McT as an established first team player. We have Garnacho as well as Mainoo on the cusp of having their breakthrough at 19 and 18, plus Fernandez and Mejbri potentially being one successful loan experience away from really challenging for rotational roles in the squad next season. And yeah we also had Greenwood who had established himself in the first team but he decided to flush his career down the drain..

That’s 6 (not including MG) academy products that could be in our first team squad next season.

 

[Andy_Cole]

It’s not. Hag just doesn’t use.

 

[AndySmith1990]

It’s not. Hag just doesn’t use.

Which academy players should Ten Hag use in the first team, out of curiosity?

 

[davidmichael]

It’s not that our academy isn’t any good and much more that we don’t bother using it because our whole recruitment structure is piss poor, if we bought better we’d be able to slowly bring the academy players through and let them progress.

Right now I’d bring Alvaro, Gore, Mejbri and Hugill up into the first team whilst I think Mainoo and Diallo should be starting once they’re back from injury.

As seen by Garnacho last season and the likes of Rashford and Greenwood before him youngsters play without fear which is what we seriously lack, we’re such a slow working team as everyone is petrified to try being expressive.

By the looks of it we’ll sign Curcurella and Hojberg which is more of the same and won’t progress us at all as neither of them are better than what we already have, ETH was meant to be a believer in youth and nurture talent yet lucked out with Garnacho and maybe Mainoo by default and doesn’t seem to trust others and I’m a massive ETH fan in saying that.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Which academy players should Ten Hag use in the first team, out of curiosity?

Well for one Fernandez at left back instead of loaning a Chelsea reject.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

It’s not really? The 92 class is a complete anomaly, and shouldn’t really be thought of as a bench mark.

 

[Samid]

Is it really that bad though? We have Rashford as a key player, and McT as an established first team player. We have Garnacho as well as Mainoo on the cusp of having their breakthrough at 19 and 18, plus the mentioned Fernandez and Mejbri potentially being one successful loan experience away from really challenging for rotational roles in the squad next season. And yeah we also had Greenwood who had established himself in the first team but he decided to flush his career down the drain..

Meh. None of those have showed anything. Over the last 5 years you had the likes of Tuanzebe, Mengi, Mensah, Chong, Garner, Gomes, Iqbal, Elanga, Shoretire etc. all 'on the cusp'. Just because the fanbase overhypes every average dud from the academy doesn't mean those players will come good.

 

[top1whoisman]

Is it really that bad though? We have Rashford as a key player, and McT as an established first team player. We have Garnacho as well as Mainoo on the cusp of having their breakthrough at 19 and 18, plus Fernandez and Mejbri potentially being one successful loan experience away from really challenging for rotational roles in the squad next season. And yeah we also had Greenwood who had established himself in the first team but he decided to flush his career down the drain..

That’s 6 (not including MG) academy products that could be in our first team squad next season.

Yeap. We also won the FA Youth Cup just over a year ago with those bad academy players.

 

[Grande]

Our academy delivers at a very high rate. Mainoo evidently inteded for first team action this year, Garnacho last year, Greenwood two years before that, Henderson sold now, Rashford through before that. If you think many top teams have a much more impressive list, I dare you to show it. And this is not counting all the young players sold on to decent carreers without getting into our regular firat team squads.

The trouble with unknowledgable OP’s who ‘merely asks the (hyperbolic) question’, is that their false premisses makes more headway as ‘facts’ than the informed answers down the thread does.

Ed. Heck, even forgot McTominay!

 

[FlapR]

Our academy used to be fantastic, and a place kids wanted to go. We've been massively overtaken by other top teams in the PL due to lack of funding and investment in services.

 

[userman]

Meh. None of those have showed anything. Over the last 5 years you had the likes of Tuanzebe, Mengi, Mensah, Chong, Garner, Gomes, Iqbal, Elanga, Shoretire etc. all 'on the cusp'. Just because the fanbase overhypes every average dud from the academy doesn't mean those players will come good.

Should we just write them all of then? Since some former prospects didn’t make it?
As another poster pointed out here, we won the U19 Youth Cup just over a year ago. We’re also selling two products in Henderson and Elanga for a combined 30m this summer, plus Garner last year for 10 or whatever it was. I wouldn’t say that’s signs of a failing academy.

 

[Nani Nana]

Our academy delivers at a very high rate. Mainoo evidently inteded for first team action this year, Garnacho last year, Greenwood two years before that, Henderson sold now, Rashford through before that. If you think many top teams have a much more impressive list, I dare you to show it. And this is not counting all the young players sold on to decent carreers without getting into our regular firat team squads.

The trouble with unknowledgable OP’s who ‘merely asks the (hyperbolic) question’, is that their false premisses makes more headway as ‘facts’ than the informed answers down the thread does.

Arsenal are way better with Saka, Smith Rowe, Nketiah.

Chelsea have their captain Reece James, Broja, Conor Gallagher, had Aké and Mount too.

Liverpool have TAA, Harvey Elliott, Curtis Jones.

 

[Remember the geese]

our much taunted academy left back

Poor lad.

 

[Stobzilla]

Meh. None of those have showed anything. Over the last 5 years you had the likes of Tuanzebe, Mengi, Mensah, Chong, Garner, Gomes, Iqbal, Shoretire etc. all 'on the cusp'. Just because the fanbase overhypes every average dud from the academy doesn't mean those players will come good.

Overhyping does happen.

But there has been a fair amount of cowardice when it has come to using some of these players and in the case of Tuanzebe, Mensah and Mengi, injuries all hit at inopportune times.

In terms of the thread, we have produced quality players, a lot of whom have had good careers with us as squad players (Lingard, Henderson, McTominay etc.) been talented enough and made it but haven't done so through factors outside of football (Morrison, Greenwood - Both of whom would have been top, top tier) a selection of players talented enough but have had bad injuries (those mentioned above + Laird spring to mind) and a few that were let go and have had/will have good careers in the PL.

Not to mention on the up right now there are players like Garnacho, Mainoo, Gore, Williams, Lacey, the Ibragimov brothers, Harrison + more. These kids will need chances though and the hierarchy should be planning now how these lads get integrated because the talent is there but you need to give them games and TRUST them. That is the element missing from our club when it comes to young players these days.

 

[BluesJr]

It’s not. Hag just doesn’t use.

Could not be more clueless.

 

[userman]

Yeap. We also won the FA Youth Cup just over a year ago with those bad academy players.

Yeah I actually forgot about that, good point, thanks for reminding me.

 

[2 man midfield]

We still produce good players, we just handle them badly and either don’t sell them when we should, or don’t get them the right loans.

We’ve currently got 10 academy graduates in our first team squad (12 before we sold Elanga and Henderson this summer), and that’s not even including the likes of Garnacho or Hannibal.

You can’t produce a class of 92 every year, but even since then there’s been some great individuals who have come through. Some decent, some good and some great, Rashford being the last one. Greenwood should’ve been next.

 

[AndySmith1990]

We’ve currently got 10 academy graduates in our first team squad (12 before we sold Elanga and Henderson this summer), and that’s not even including the likes of Garnacho or Hannibal.

Our squad is frequently described as being shite, though

 

[top1whoisman]

Arsenal are way better with Saka, Smith Rowe, Nketiah.

Liverpool have TAA, Harvey Elliott, Curtis Jones.

Nketiah is an average striker. Smith Rowe has some talent but seems prone to injuries and is not getting minutes even coming off the bench.

TAA is a defensive liability who’s good at crossing. Elliott is a substitute who fails to impact games. Jones is a promising player who struggles to get games for them.

 

[2 man midfield]

Our squad is frequently described as being shite, though

I think the squad is fine, it’s the first 11 that I take issue with.

 

[Nani Nana]

Nketiah is an average striker. Smith Rowe has some talent but seems prone to injuries and is not getting minutes even coming off the bench.

TAA is a defensive liability who’s good at crossing. Elliott is a substitute who fails to impact games. Jones is a promising player who struggles to get games for them.

Smith Rowe is chased by CFC, he's a top class talent, better than what we have at our academy.

TAA has made an incredible impact at LFC down the years, let us not rewrite history there. Seven academy players on the bench v Newcastle too.

And I am not even mentioning Europe's best academies like La Masia.

Ten Hag was brought in against the background of Ajax bringing through lots of great young players yet I do not see it happening at the moment, though he tries with Garnacho.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

It’s not really? The 92 class is a complete anomaly, and shouldn’t really be thought of as a bench mark.

True. Also one of the main reason why our Academy players are so overhyped. The hope that some of them will be this generations version of Class of '92. When being released or sold, fans are crying or throwing hissy fit. 6 months later those players are forgotten or not mentioned any more and fans find another kid to put all of their hopes into.

 

[Eric_the_Red99]

While I agree that our academy isn’t as bad as the OP suggests, I’m not sure how much credit we can take for developing Garnacho, seeing as he was signed from Atletico Madrid’s youth system at 16 and made his senior debut for us at 17. A bit different from Rashford who has been at United since he was 8.

But I don’t know why we’re so reluctant to draft in youth players as emergency cover when we’re hit by injuries, rather than resorting to short term loans. Did we really have nobody better than Weghorst in our youth teams last season?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Our academy is still very strong and continues to produce very good PL-level players. Unfortunately, the bar to make it at United (even a United side that's 'only' fighting for top four) is extremely high.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

We haven’t invested in our Academy so it has gradually become worse

 

[Nani Nana]

While I agree that our academy isn’t as bad as the OP suggests, I’m not sure how much credit we can take for developing Garnacho, seeing as he was signed from Atletico Madrid’s youth system at 16 and made his senior debut for us at 17. A bit different from Rashford who has been at United since he was 8.

But I don’t know why we’re so reluctant to draft in youth players as emergency cover when we’re hit by injuries, rather than resorting to short term loans. Did we really have nobody better than Weghorst in our youth teams last season?

Provided Ten Hag really relies on Garnacho, I cannot see Fernandez playing behind him and our left wing being exclusively composed of academy products.

However it looks like even Garnacho will soon be confined to the bench and as you said, he is not even a proper academy product (though that is not my point and I do not mind tapping up academy products from other clubs)

 

[Eric_the_Red99]

Provided Ten Hag really relies on Garnacho, I cannot see Fernandez playing behind him and our left wing being exclusively composed of academy products.

Rashford, who should be playing on the left, is more of an ‘academy product’ than Garnacho.

 

[Nani Nana]

Rashford, who should be playing on the left, is more of an ‘academy product’ than Garnacho.

Rashford is a seasoned EPL player.

I am thinking of the opportunities Garnacho could get on the left wing, cannot see Fernandez and him being on the pitch at same time on same wing.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Provided Ten Hag really relies on Garnacho, I cannot see Fernandez playing behind him and our left wing being exclusively composed of academy products.

However it looks like even Garnacho will soon be confined to the bench and as you said, he is not even a proper academy product (though that is not my point and I do not mind tapping up academy products from other clubs)

Can Garnacho even be called an academy product? He was trained at Atletico Madrid until he was 16

 

[top1whoisman]

Smith Rowe is chased by CFC, he's a top class talent, better than what we have at our academy.

TAA has made an incredible impact at LFC down the years, let us not rewrite history there. Seven academy players on the bench v Newcastle too.

And I am not even mentioning Europe's best academies like La Masia.

Ten Hag was brought in against the background of Ajax bringing through lots of great young players yet I do not see it happening at the moment, though he tries with Garnacho.

Not sure he is more talented than Lacey. Difficult to compare of course, time will tell. Having a bench full of academy players doesn’t mean they’re better than our academy players. Looking at wingers 17-year old Ethan Williams is another talent coming through. Will start most games in the U21s this season.

EtH’s been at the club for a year. And as you said he played a 18-year old Garnacho quite a lot. Remains to be seen but it feels like he was counting on Mainoo to make a genuine impact in the first team this season.

 

[Samid]

Should we just write them all of then? Since some former prospects didn’t make it?
As another poster pointed out here, we won the U19 Youth Cup just over a year ago. We’re also selling two products in Henderson and Elanga for a combined 30m this summer, plus Garner last year for 10 or whatever it was. I wouldn’t say that’s signs of a failing academy.

We shouldn't write off anyone but this fanbase loves to deal in hyperbole. Every player that shows some technical skills in the academy automatically becomes the next big thing. The players I mentioned above were the flavor of the month over the past few years. Now there are new youngsters who are supposed to be our saviors. In 2-3 years most of the current big prospects will have been binned off and the fans will be overhyping the latest batch.

Winning the youth cup holds little relevance in terms of which players will make it. It's a team game. A team of average players but a solid collective unit will probably beat a team with two future superstars playing in a less cohesive team. With players out on loans or featuring for the seniors, youth teams are hardly ever at full strength anyway.

The only two players from the academy that have actually made it here are Rashford and McT. Ironically neither were overhyped to begin with. Rashy got his breakthrough when he was more or less unknown for most fans. McT wasn't even that highly rated. All those that were highly rated by the fans faded away. Goes to show the fans haven't really got a clue on how or why academy players do/don't make it here.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Can Garnacho even be called an academy product? He was trained at Atletico Madrid until he was 16

He spent two years in the academy and made over 30 appearances, so yes he can be called an academy product.

Who can’t be called an academy product is Harvey Elliot at Liverpool, who made his senior debut at Fulham and never played a single match for Liverpool’s academy.

 

[rimaldo]

weak sperm.

 

[Grande]

Arsenal are way better with Saka, Smith Rowe, Nketiah.

Chelsea have their captain Reece James, Broja, Conor Gallagher, had Aké and Mount too.

Liverpool have TAA, Harvey Elliott, Curtis Jones.

Saka, Smith Rowe, Nketiah is WAY better than Rashford, Greenwood, Garnacho? I don’t think many would buy that.

I’d prefer Rashford, Greenwood, Garnacho, Mainoo, McTominay to that Liverpool group as well. Chelsea have had a better academy than anyone in England for a while in some respects, but struggled to bring them into their own team.