Why have our academy products become so bad?

[The Siege]

It's two things I feel.

1) I think it's just overlapping with a phase at the club where we're struggling to help players grow from top to bottom. We've barely helped expensively purchased first team players with potential find their previous best or a higher level in the last decade, I must imagine it's hard for young players to step in and find their identity in the same mess.

2) If you were the Manchester United manager, why would you use a youth team player unless they were a generational talent you just found lying around? No manager since SAF has last 3 full years as manager. Every time this team loses a match, the fanbase loses their mind and think we've gone ten steps back, and if that monkey gets on the manager's back too much, we've got shady owners who will take fan favourite decisions for the little good PR they can get. No matter how much this club says they'll back you, there's no reason for the manager to have confidence in that proclamation. And in that climate, it makes sense that the manager will reach for experienced players OR players he's worked with before OR players who you can get at least a 6/10 level performance out of consistently instead of the wildly inconsistent phases a young player will obviously go through, especially in defense.

 

[elmo]

Similar to how SAF would have loved Rashford, Januzaj, Garnacho & Greenwood. Also, remember that we had to go through several years of "non-prime" Fletcher who was viewed in similar light to today's McTominay before we hit prime Fletcher for a couple of years.

You’re comparing Fletcher who was 18/19 to Scott who’s 26.

 

[bringbackbebe]

You’re comparing Fletcher who was 18/19 to Scott who’s 26.

~24 year old Fletcher being discussed in redcafe:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/darren-fletchers-future.178012/

and this was under a very stable environment, under SAF.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

I'm not convinced by Nick Cox tbh. He comes across a bit David Brenty to me - touchy feely, lots of buzzwords, "emotionally intelligent" with words like "holistic" and so on. That's better than the dinosaur culture that seemed to have pervaded English football over decades. But football has moved on. It feels like he would've been a revelation 20 years ago but, like in most aspects of our football infrastructure, we're well out of date.

The most notable players that Cox has nurtured before joining United are Sancho, Calvert-Lewin, Ramsdale and Brooks. That's not a bad list. However, Sancho and DCL don't seem mentally or physically up to elite football. Brooks is tiny and has little muscle mass (obviously his cancer battle was horrendous and fair play to him for how he dealt with it). Ramsdale has a decent mentality and is doing ok. I'm not wowed in general though. This is the man overseeing what has been regarded as one of the top 5 top academies in the world historically, and the club ethos is so geared to youth development.

United in the past have been great at overlooking physical limitations to focus on technique and giving players longer to mature physically. Scholes is the best example. Despite this, it feels that we've neglected physical preparation for our youngsters. Lots of them have been really injury prone or slight. In modern football, athleticism is so important and we don't seem to be keeping up with other big clubs in this regard. They are all prioritising technical development too so we can't pretend to be the outliers in that respect any longer. I can't help thinking that Nick Cox perpetuates this. His interview with the Elite Performance Podcast was really cringeworthy. He seems like a luvvie.

I don't like picking out individuals, especially not ones behind the scenes. We're also only too aware that staff at United are hamstrung by the appalling ownership. I can't help being concerned by our academy though. Greenwood doesn't seem to have been properly mentored and we have so many talents stall in their late teens/early 20s. We still produce a lot of players but there's real signs, in my mind at least, that we're falling behind and fast.

 

[MancunianAngels]

When I left uni, my first "real" job was in a company that had recently gone through a huge turnover of middle management.

At this organisation, the stresses from the top were being passed down the food chain and was hitting the recent hires negatively because I/they were being asked to work at a level that my/their experience wasn't suited to.

It's very similar at United.

Go back to around this time 10 years ago when Januzaj broke through. I'd maintain that if he'd broken through 5 years earlier, he would have developed into a much better player.

Chuck young people/employees of any industry into a fairly toxic environment and 99% won't develop/mature like they should.

 

[elmo]

~24 year old Fletcher being discussed in redcafe:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/darren-fletchers-future.178012/

and this was under a very stable environment, under SAF.

Look how well that thread aged. Anderson taking over Scholes

 

[bringbackbebe]

Look how well that thread aged. Anderson taking over Scholes

Sell Fletcher buy Veloso

Not very far off from sell McTominay buy Amrabat. We as fans can't differentiate talent from crap.

 

[Kellyiom]

I'm not convinced by Nick Cox tbh. He comes across a bit David Brenty to me - touchy feely, lots of buzzwords, "emotionally intelligent" with words like "holistic" and so on. That's better than the dinosaur culture that seemed to have pervaded English football over decades. But football has moved on. It feels like he would've been a revelation 20 years ago but, like in most aspects of our football infrastructure, we're well out of date.

The most notable players that Cox has nurtured before joining United are Sancho, Calvert-Lewin, Ramsdale and Brooks. That's not a bad list. However, Sancho and DCL don't seem mentally or physically up to elite football. Brooks is tiny and has little muscle mass (obviously his cancer battle was horrendous and fair play to him for how he dealt with it). Ramsdale has a decent mentality and is doing ok. I'm not wowed in general though. This is the man overseeing what has been regarded as one of the top 5 top academies in the world historically, and the club ethos is so geared to youth development.

United in the past have been great at overlooking physical limitations to focus on technique and giving players longer to mature physically. Scholes is the best example. Despite this, it feels that we've neglected physical preparation for our youngsters. Lots of them have been really injury prone or slight. In modern football, athleticism is so important and we don't seem to be keeping up with other big clubs in this regard. They are all prioritising technical development too so we can't pretend to be the outliers in that respect any longer. I can't help thinking that Nick Cox perpetuates this. His interview with the Elite Performance Podcast was really cringeworthy. He seems like a luvvie.

I don't like picking out individuals, especially not ones behind the scenes. We're also only too aware that staff at United are hamstrung by the appalling ownership. I can't help being concerned by our academy though. Greenwood doesn't seem to have been properly mentored and we have so many talents stall in their late teens/early 20s. We still produce a lot of players but there's real signs, in my mind at least, that we're falling behind and fast.

Great post, nice one. Interesting that you mention the physical condition and I think you're right. It's easy to forget that this PL is very fast, very hard and any weaknesses are punished quickly. That's why I'm a bit concerned about Amrabat, great footballer imo, don't know if he'd be OK in the Premier league though.
The poster below had an experience where their organisation had seen a lot of personnel turnover and the rot comes from the top.
Fundamentally, that's the biggest problem we have here. Questions over ownership must have an effect on players coming in and on Erik's squad management. It's bound to put off some players who maybe have other plans at clubs where they feel they are more likely to win trophies and the league.
Ironically these are the very players we should want, people with a near obsessive will to win but they won't come here, they might rightly think there's a chance the team gets swapped and changed again.

I'm with you about not singling any one out; the tone is set from the very top, change that and we'll start really performing imo.

 

[Alex99]

Our academy is fine, people just have ridiculous expectations, and the class of 92 comparison is just evidence of it. Getting one player good enough for the first team out of any cohort is amazing. Getting half a dozen is essentially a miracle.

Rashford, McTominay, Elanga and Garnacho were all regular features in the squad last season and are all academy graduates (this also doesn't include Henderson being out on loan, Heaton being the back-up GK, or Greenwood being a POS).

In terms of similar appearances, Arsenal had Saka, Smith Rowe, Nketiah and Nelson, City had Foden, Palmer and Lewis, Newcastle had Longstaff and Anderson, and Liverpool had Jones and TAA.

In terms of starting places, we have Rashford, Arsenal have Saka, City have Foden, Newcastle have no one, and Liverpool (for some reason, still) have TAA.

We're not falling behind at all, never mind "far behind" others.

 

[GueRed]

It's good compared to other Premier League clubs.

Some fans just heap unrealistic expectations every year.
I was guilty of that in the 90's especially after the Class of '92 tbh

A lot of overhyping goes around to this day.

 

[CG1010]

Oh come on, which academy produced two top quality forwards (rashford and Greenwood) in quick succession? And an upcoming winger being Garnacho. We also have Mainoo coming up in the first XI.

And I am sure more academy players would start featuring in first XI as ETH orients the academy as per his style. The likes of Mctominay, Lingard, Williams, etc. were never likely to be in an ETH team.

 

[marktan]

About 10 years ago City invested heavily in their academy and soon a lot of the better talents started going there. Didn't we have fletcher or RVPs kids going there instead of United's?

We still have the likes of Rashford and Greenwood yes - but there's a lag - like there was with Chelsea before they started pumping out talents. As with all things United related, the Glazer's failure to keep up with Citys investment in infrastructure / staffing means our academy will be subpar when compared to theirs over the next 10 years.

 

[DoctorPepper]

Other than Chelsea, I think I see more United's academy graduates in top divisions than others?

 

[Archer]

Other than Chelsea, I think I see more United's academy graduates in top divisions than others?

No, United have the highest number of academy graduates in top divisions.

 

[roseguy64]

Players need to be given a chance in the first team and not ousted on 1-2 matches. I can imagine a lot of the class of 92 not even being given a chance by the modern manager. I think for example someone like SAF would have given Fernandez a chance at LB rather go out to market for another player. Why have we signed another back up keeper and not promoted Kovar as a backup as another example. Look at places like Dortmund who play youngsters like Sancho and Bellingham. Youngsters know that and prefer to join those clubs knowing they will be given first team football. Hopefully Mainoo can come in and cement his place.

Backup keepers should be experienced players. Young goalies need to play often. Their position is unique. We can't just put on a goalie for the last 10 minutes like we can with Garnacho.

 

[tenpoless]

They stopped feeding them danone yoghurt

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Hugill, MacNeil, Hansen-Aaroen, Gore, Fish, Fernandez, all seem pretty exciting. Not ready yet, but a lot of good younglings.

 

[KD6-3.7]

I don’t think our first team is setup well enough to accommodate young and especially raw players because we always end up expecting more from them because our own first team players aren’t delivering. I think there’s a good chance Garnacho doesn’t progress this season for that reason alone.

Also not to mention the fanbase loves to overhype them.

 

[wolvored]

If we only had one breakthrough a season from the youth, that would be a fantastic coup. I cant think of one player who came through all the youth teams from an early age who has left and become a superstar at another club. If Mainoo comes back from injury and plays 20 games this season, we can claim another success. How many dotop teams bring through each season?

 

[Thiagoal]

Hugill, MacNeil, Hansen-Aaroen, Gore, Fish, Fernandez, all seem pretty exciting. Not ready yet, but a lot of good younglings.

I think Hugill and McNeill are League one strikers at best. I do think the other three will have careers for decent clubs. The only player there that might have a future with us is Hansen-Aaroen. However, add IHA to Mainoo, Lacey, Garnacho all of whom I think are a shoe in to be United players then that’s a pretty good number! I think our academy is doing as it’s always done!

 

[TheGame]

Backup keepers should be experienced players. Young goalies need to play often. Their position is unique. We can't just put on a goalie for the last 10 minutes like we can with Garnacho.

We are about to sign a young GK from Turkey who is not too much older than Kovar. He had a decent loan last season and should be ready to step up with Heston there as well.

 

[roseguy64]

We are about to sign a young GK from Turkey who is not too much older than Kovar. He had a decent loan last season and should be ready to step up with Heston there as well.

Okay and? Just like Suzuki rejecting a move to Man Utd, Kovar wants game time. Bayindir will likely want to move on in a season or two because he'll want to play. Besides there are clauses in Kovar's deal to bring him back anyway.

 

[TheGame]

Okay and? Just like Suzuki rejecting a move to Man Utd, Kovar wants game time. Bayindir will likely want to move on in a season or two because he'll want to play. Besides there are clauses in Kovar's deal to bring him back anyway.

My point was in response to you saying we need an experienced second keeper when that’s not we are signing. Anyway will see how it goes with Mainoo and see if he can make the breakthrough as an academy product.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I think Hugill and McNeill are League one strikers at best. I do think the other three will have careers for decent clubs. The only player there that might have a future with us is Hansen-Aaroen. However, add IHA to Mainoo, Lacey, Garnacho all of whom I think are a shoe in to be United players then that’s a pretty good number! I think our academy is doing as it’s always done!

Hugill and McNeill are only 20. Give them a year or two more before we see what they can do. These kids are still growing at this point, physically as well as their game sense.

 

[Kellyiom]

Hugill, MacNeil, Hansen-Aaroen, Gore, Fish, Fernandez, all seem pretty exciting. Not ready yet, but a lot of good younglings.

Just need to keep them away from the Dark Side of the Force..

 

[Drainy]

The Premier League is much more demanding than it was, especially physically.

This makes it harder for young players to get their big break and consistently apply themselves so end up being less useful as squad players so go out on loan until ready, but that can stall their development if not lucky.

 

[cyberman]

Front 3 could all have been youth products if Greenwood wasn’t a monster. Pogba just left us while Mainoo is one of the brightest prospects in the country. Plus we just sold Henderson for 20 odd million.
What more can we do?

 

[Revan]

As @Grande listed: ”Mainoo evidently intended for first team action this year, Garnacho last year, Greenwood two years before that, Henderson sold now, Rashford through before that.”

The list goes on. We’ve recently sold Premier League level players we produced such as Pereira, Garner, Elanga, Lingard, Pogba & Chong. Angel Gomes is a regular starter for Lille and was one of England U21’s best players in their Euros triumph in the summer.

People seem to have unrealistic expectations that we should be able to produce top class talents every single year or bring another class of ’92 up just like that. As many have pointed out that was an anomaly. Not even Barca, Ajax & co. manage to produce mega talents every season.

Garnacho isn’t starting more games because he just turned 19 and has a lot to learn. It’s not like Sir Alex threw teenagers into the starting eleven on consistent basis either. Yes after the Co ’92 there was Rooney and Ronaldo but again, they were rare world class talents.

Combined that is 36m there. Or minus 54m depending on how you look Pogba. Actually cash flow, it is -54m, Which is not really that good.

I think United should finally realize what City and Chelsea have realized. The chances of an academy player making it are almost infinitesimal. For every Rashford, there are tens of duds there. Just sell them when they show some promise and their stock is really high, and then reinvest that money. Try to keep only the special talents who already are ready (Rashford, Greenwood), but for the others, it is better to sell them for high fees and reinvest the money to get players who are already ready to play at the club.

 

[Moston Red]

We’ve produced some decent players in the last few years??

Garnacho, MG, Rashford, Mainoo (hopefully), Henderson.

 

[golden_blunder]

Some of it is unrealistic expectations from fans. There is a world of difference between reserve football and playing first team in the PL. a huge difference. Yet some of you just want us to chuck kids into lineups like it’s FM. We’re lucky if we get 1 a season making it

 

[Gavinb33]

Some of it is unrealistic expectations from fans. There is a world of difference between reserve football and playing first team in the PL. a huge difference. Yet some of you just want us to chuck kids into lineups like it’s FM. We’re lucky if we get 1 a season making it

The expectation comes from City clearing out 2 or 3 academy players a season for 60 million and we don't so this must mean our academy is crap, when reality is its absolutely fine

 

[golden_blunder]

The expectation comes from City clearing out 2 or 3 academy players a season for 60 million and we don't so this must mean our academy is crap, when reality is its absolutely fine

I saw someone earlier querying why we didn’t get the palmer price for Iqbal, Emeran and someone I can’t recall. If they can’t see the difference in getting time at PL and scoring, versus not, then I give up engaging with them

 

[MancunianAngels]

I'm actually convinced now there's a UK wide problem with academy players rather than there being solely a United problem.

Teams/managers are terrified of losing in the short term so will go for experience rather than youth/potential. Even city (annoyingly the most stable of the big 6) have just sold Palmer because there's no immediate plans for him. How many other players are sold/completely binned off at a young age because they haven't quite developed yet?

It's interesting that one of the most exciting young players in Bellingham opted to move to Dortmund at a young age rather than stay in the Premier League. Players may look at him now as a role model and make moves abroad rather than sign for a big 6 side.

Chelsea and city have both dominated Youth leagues and cups for a long term but very few have made it at the top.

 

[carlbcfc]

I think it’s more a symptom of United being disfunctional since Fergie left, and city being better recruiters locally, whilst also being pushed out of other areas of scouting that they had sewn up. A lot of scouts I’ve known who worked for United in just the Midlands, been poached by the likes of Arsenal & Leicester. I mean Greenwood ain’t a Manc is he? He a Bradford lad.

I’ve known signed pro club boys 8-12 in the Midlands, being allowed to train at City in the past 8 years or so. United have neglected the Midlands whilst it’s had a boom.

Villa have a boy officially U15 but plays a few years up. A very powerful striker named Markie Meade. He’s all over the district website so no harm naming him. 96 in a season. 158 total for the district. Him & a Spanish ex WBA lad currently playing for Almeria & Ireland U16 (Ramon Martos) are the best 2 I’ve seen from age 7 up.


Remember these names…

 

[roseguy64]

My point was in response to you saying we need an experienced second keeper when that’s not we are signing. Anyway will see how it goes with Mainoo and see if he can make the breakthrough as an academy product.

But he is experienced. He's played 116 games for Fenerbache and has caps for Turkey.

Kovar has 52 with none at a high level.

 

[United Hobbit]

Pathetic bar Onana. Jury's out on Hojlund given he's injured so not been able to see him yet to properly assess, don't like that we haven't got a strong back up as I've given up completely with Tony, obviously MG had to go, yet we haven't signed a replacement, lot of pressure on Hojlund to hit the ground running...

Can't shift the true deadwood and some truly scraping the barrel last minute signings....

I'd be more supportive of diamonds in the rough type signings, why do we never pick up these sorts of players? A la Brighton who are hugely successful with these types. Instead we are scraping around on deadline day getting other club's rejects/Deadwood....

Not the sign of a club with ambition, need this sale asap but too late to save this season

 

[Archer]

I think it’s more a symptom of United being disfunctional since Fergie left, and city being better recruiters locally, whilst also being pushed out of other areas of scouting that they had sewn up. A lot of scouts I’ve known who worked for United in just the Midlands, been poached by the likes of Arsenal & Leicester. I mean Greenwood ain’t a Manc is he? He a Bradford lad.

I’ve known signed pro club boys 8-12 in the Midlands, being allowed to train at City in the past 8 years or so. United have neglected the Midlands whilst it’s had a boom.

Villa have a boy officially U15 but plays a few years up. A very powerful striker named Markie Meade. He’s all over the district website so no harm naming him. 96 in a season. 158 total for the district. Him & a Spanish ex WBA lad currently playing for Almeria & Ireland U16 (Ramon Martos) are the best 2 I’ve seen from age 7 up.


Remember these names…

I dont think United have neglected the Midlands.They were heavily linked with Jamaldeen Jimoh who was with Westbrom last season and Trevan Sanusi who was with Birmingham this season.

 

[carlbcfc]

I dont think United have neglected the Midlands.They were heavily linked with Jamaldeen Jimoh who was with Westbrom last season and Trevan Sanusi who was with Birmingham this season.

Trevan made our match day last game last season. He didn’t resign, and has not popped up anywhere as yet.

 

[Nani Nana]

I think it’s more a symptom of United being disfunctional since Fergie left, and city being better recruiters locally, whilst also being pushed out of other areas of scouting that they had sewn up. A lot of scouts I’ve known who worked for United in just the Midlands, been poached by the likes of Arsenal & Leicester. I mean Greenwood ain’t a Manc is he? He a Bradford lad.

I’ve known signed pro club boys 8-12 in the Midlands, being allowed to train at City in the past 8 years or so. United have neglected the Midlands whilst it’s had a boom.

Villa have a boy officially U15 but plays a few years up. A very powerful striker named Markie Meade. He’s all over the district website so no harm naming him. 96 in a season. 158 total for the district. Him & a Spanish ex WBA lad currently playing for Almeria & Ireland U16 (Ramon Martos) are the best 2 I’ve seen from age 7 up.


Remember these names…

In terms of talent pool, the Manchester area is full of talented lads. Enough for both City and United to groom. I just think promoting youth players has lost some of its aura at the club lately.

We'll see how much Garnacho and Mainoo play this season.

 

[colombianmancunian]

It’s common and happens to all academies. We had our golden generation in 92, afterwards we have every 4-5 years a serious talent appearing such as Rashford, Greenwood, Garnacho and I hope Mainoo (if you are to believe ETH).

See FC Levers Negreira as an example, they had their golden generation of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Fabregas and of course Messi, afterwards they have produced only flops such as Bojan, Deolofeu, Ansu “Fragile”, etc. Or see Madrid, who basically haven’t produced a talented youngster in ages. There’s a reason why the two Spanish giants have resorted to buy talented South American kids before they go to feeder clubs; they have understand that academies can be unreliable for top talent.

It’s imposible to have a golden generation every five years, talented players will appear of course, but they are a minority. For every Rashford there are like five McTominays, and 20 players who will not make it.