Why have we settled for two make-shift full-backs?

[Zlatattack]

Kyle Walker or Valencia?
Peak Zabaleta or Valencia?
Sagna (arsenal version) or Valencia?
Ivanovic or Valencia?
Coleman or Valencia?
What about...
Maicon?
Alves?
Lahm?

I reckon Valencia could hold his own in a few of those. Credit to Valencia aspects of his game are as good as the very best in the position during his career.

He's not on the level of the all round game though. I think most of those guys could have been seen as an upgrade, buts it's never been a desperate need because he does such a good job.

Upgrading Valencia is like having a BMW M5 and wanting an AMG S Class. It's not like you're making do with a Saxo. The difference between them isn't going to be like upgrading to a Bentley or a Maybach.

In the absence of an Alves, Lahm or Maicon in the market, why bother replacing your M5 with an S Class? Especially if you need to get a new course of damp proofing.

 

[el3mel]

The problem today was more with Young than with Valencia. Valencia wasn't bad.

 

[P-Nut]

Young at LB with a winger that wants to cut in just cuts off a corner of the pitch for us to exploit. Shaw was the obvious choice today.

 

[peridigm]

We brought in specialized fullbacks and they haven't cut it. Valencia and Young have been above par so far this season. This was a bad game by all. Hardly worth calling them out specifically for the loss. Young's positioning was not good tonight. We're not City who can plunk down 300m on defenders in two seasons. So despite our efforts to rebuild, we're still looking for FB's, as well as CB's and MF's and wingers too.

 

[bosnian_red]

Valencia is quality, no problem with him. Everyone has bad games from time to time, but he's a fullback in every sense the past 3 seasons. Young though is awful positionally. Feck knows why he started over Shaw today.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Every big team in Europe have fullbacks who contribute massively to the teams attack, we've had Valencia who for me is mostly y useless once he enters the opponents half. But he's been our first choice RB for many years now because of how solid he is at the back. Young is by far the best left back in the club and he's a failed winger... Depressing stuff

 

[El Zoido]

Valencia is the enigma I’ll never understand, he’s just so average and I cannot for the life of me understand why he’s so highly rated. Defensively he’s good enough, offensively he offers so very little. He can’t do anything first time, he constantly dilly dallies on the ball and it kills everything.

There’s at least two or three times in every game where the ball comes to his feet and it needs to be played or moved immediately, but instead he stops it, stands there, stands there, does nothing, waits until the entire opposition 11 has organised a defensive line, then he loses the ball or passes it back five yards. And all of a sudden our promising attack is dead. This happens constantly in every game and it drives me up the bloody wall. I appreciate his service but I can’t wait to see the back of him.

 

[J_Red 11]

We have bigger problem that we need to settle in first than full backs. We don't have someone who can build up the play or attack from the back (Matic, Jones & Smalling can't do it).

 

[Ekeke]

Its about what the manager wants from the fullbacks. Young has been found wanting with his tracking back on a bunch of occasions now this season. But Mourinho continues to pick him at left back because he's been one of our better players going forwards. Defensively Shaw has always stood out for a young player and is far more likely to track back and cover defensively but he's not selected. So I think we can see what Mourinho prefers in the fullback positions

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Not that I have any genuine dislike for either Young or Valencia but Young's rise I completely understand, as a professional he's shown the attitude and ability to push through in the short term into a role that has had some tumultuous problems in the last couple of years (injuries etch) but I genuinely have no idea how Valencia has managed to noodle his way through into the first team and be our starting right back for three seasons.

I think the blame has to rest squarely on Moyes/Van Gaal for not fixing our ranks and then LVG's bizarre decision to bin off half of our squad in place of raw youngsters who were never ready to begin with.

RB's since Ferguson: Rafael, Fabio, Varela, Darmian, McNair, Young, Valencia, Vermijl, Jones, Smalling, Lingard (wingback), Tuanzebe.
LB's since Ferguson: Evra, Buttner, Fabio, Shaw, Darmian, Rojo, Blind, Blackett, Young, Reece James, Evans, Fosu-Mensah.
*(natural fullback, defender, not a defender, rarely used/makeshift) The names sourced off transfermarkt, could have stuffed them up and missed a few players.

That's not to single out these players in Young/Valencia because they've come in and performed their best as professionals and done exactly what was asked of them. I think the problem lay in not having the adequate stocks behind them or simply binning off players prematurely. In Shaw/Darmian's case having that unstable base to come into the team and peform has hurt them in different ways. Shaw of course with his freak injuries and fitness troubles.

I personally think that this a genuine sleeper issue that will really need to be addressed next season. At least on the right another player in behind Valencia has to come in to either rotate or organically push him out of the starting squad and on the left some assurance around Shaw as the starter with some adequate backup. The stocks in defense in the academy looks quite thin with only really Demi Mitchell being the next in line to have a crack and I personally think he's probably a season or two away from being in the mix to push at Shaw's heels.

There are definitely some marble-stack problems in the fullback area that need looking at.

 

[AdamAdams]

Young should never have walked straight back into the team after Shaw's recent form.

 

[Turnip]

This was the most baffelling thing for me last night, why was Young on the pitch over Shaw? He offered nothing going forward or defensively. I actually felt like had we got someone down that flank who was capable of attacking there were so many attacks that wouldn't have ended flat on their face like they did and maybe we'd have had a better shot at scoring. Was the first onr who should have been subbed for me.

If he plays the next match ahead of Shaw, Shaw has to leave for his own sake, can't spend his career being held back by Jose's ridiculous decisions.

 

[limerickcitykid]

The stocks in defense in the academy looks quite thin with only really Demi Mitchell being the next in line to have a crack and I personally think he's probably a season or two away from being in the mix to push at Shaw's heels.

Lee O'Connor is one of the best players in the academy and should be stepping up in the next couple of years.

 

[Pass and Move]

Because full backs have often been the worst footballers in a team, so there's often more value in having a more capable footballer played out of position there than playing a designated full back who is a significantly worse footballer.

Darmian for example, he's not even very good at kicking the football.

I often make the same argument regarding defensive midfielders. I have no time for players who can 'break up the play'. Fill the midfield with players who are good on the ball.

 

[Lord SInister]

Because full backs have often been the worst footballers in a team, so there's often more value in having a more capable footballer played out of position there than playing a designated full back who is a significantly worse footballer.

Darmian for example, he's not even very good at kicking the football.

I often make the same argument regarding defensive midfielders. I have no time for players who can 'break up the play'. Fill the midfield with players who are good on the ball.

 

[sully1]

100% agree

Valencia until Jose came was always exposed in the big games against the top 4 sides, Jose made him rock solid and now hes as good against top 4 as he is against the bottom 15 teams.

But Young will always get exposed in the big games, City at home they tormented young on the left side all match and yesterday against Spurs they targeted him again and he couldn't deal with it. Add to that Chelsea away as well Young couldnt deal with Chelsea left side attack.

Shaw is United best LB no matter how much Jose turns a blind eye towards him.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Valencia is the only player who shows up in every game no matter the magnitude. He should be exempt from being called makeshift anything.

 

[shield]

I really like Valencia, but people get overly defensive about him whenever his performances are questioned. Overall he does the basics of running hard and closing down the right flank, but going ahead, he just lacks the crossing ability to really threaten the opposition.

Like Victor Moses also plays like Valencia, but I hardly feel threatened anytime Moses has the ball. Moses makes a strong run which looks great while he is carrying the ball, but when it comes to actually delivering the cross or making the final pass to make it all count, he inevitably messes up. But it is easy to ignore this final cross, because the run preceding it was full of energy and vigour and was quite exciting, and when the team has performed poorly, supporters tend to remember these bright runs.

We obviously need an upgrade for Young, and maybe Shaw can step up, but we also should be looking to upgrade Valencia. However, I am happy to stick with Valencia for another year. Young definitely needs to play less often.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

It seems there is not a glut of outstanding to WC fullbacks specifically on the right that we could easily name without doing the usual plucking names out of the air because they sound fancy or they are good on PS4/Xbox.

Can someone give a genuine RB or RWB that you would say would be the revelation or significant upgrade we need?

 

[extincti fugax hominum]

Because we accepted mediocrity over the last 10 years or so. That's the only logical explanation of the current situation with not only our fullbacks but with our whole squad quality. A ruthless club like Bayern, Juve etc. would immediately buy a competent left back to make Shaw(a potentially great player with question marks still over him) compete with him and sort RB with another acquisition. On the other hand we beg to the likes of fecking Fellaini to stay People need to stop with this overrating of Valencia, Lingard etc. Valencia is not a world class RB. Never will be never was. Same goes to Lingard who is a good squad player. Nothing more nothing less. And both Young and Valencia will be 33 at the end of the season and some still say Valencia as a first choice is OK. No wonder standards have fallen off a cliff over the last few years.

Posted this in the match day forum but genuinely, is there another squad in any league in Europe, at any level, that could put out the same back four and keeper in 2018 as in 2011? It’s mental. Total stagnation.

It really is. The very definition of stagnation.

Valencia is not good enough. The sooner people realise that the better. Shaw should also be playing, Young is an average player.

Agreed. We should be buying a left-back and a right-back in the summer.

I hope we'll settle for Shaw. And Valencia needs a backup. It's not that he's bad but he's a bit old.

Valencia doesn't need a backup. He needs to be the backup.

I don't agree with those who say Valencia is a good fullback. I think defensively he's as good as anyone these days - strong, fast, disciplined - but in attack he offers absolutely no threat. He can't go past a man, he can't cross, he can't do anything in attack. When Valencia gets the ball wide, he's shuffling back to his left then passing it backwards 99 times out of 100. You can't expect to be a top team if your defence does nothing but defend. There's a reason teams are starting to involve the keeper in more aspects of play these days - it gets an 11th man playing football. Our fullbacks are our wide-men, and Valencia doesn't cut it.

For a position that's so massively important in modern football I think it's been strangely overlooked. Who was our last established proper fullback? Evra? And on the right? Was it actually Neville? That's fecking mental.

Shaw may well have a future here - I think he's looked really impressive when he's been given a run this season - but buying a RB and a LB in the summer is essential.

That part is tragicomic

 

[Oscie]

I can't get the Valencia praise. Yeah he has games where he looks good but he's so limited going forward, which is a massive part of being a full-back in the modern game. You can't be a good FB if you're poor going forward in the same way you can't be a top keeper if you're poor at aerial balls. As others have pointed out he lacks confidence and conviction when going forward and countless moves completely break down when he is in a good position to get the ball into a promising area with the opposition defenders scrambling to get back and all he'll do is pause and allow them to get back and pass the ball sideways or back depending on wherever the closest player standing next to him is.

I think we've become so accustomed to having a right (and a left) back who have only found their positions late in their career by virtue of not really being good enough at being wingers that we overlook these things. Although both can have games and spells where they look decent neither should have been anything more than short-term 'do a job' fillers in their new roles, covering until only a replacement specialist full back could be identified.

 

[Distracted Steward]

I guess it’s strange if you pull back and think of it in general term, like how can a wealthy club not have top, natural fullbacks? The timeline pretty much explains it, though.

Evra aged out.

LVG ditched Raphael. Maybe his form in the 2012/13 title season was above his natural level. Love him to death, but I think it was.

Shaw was a brilliant purchase and the type of purchase to avoid the current FB situation. Horrible injury, trouble with Mourinho, dodgy training history, question work ethic & mentality and slow return to form. He may prove to be who we hoped he could be, but it’s been rough so far.

Darmian was a starter for Italy, but flattered to deceive. Solid signing that didn’t pan out.

Enter Young and Valencia. Two players with enough talent to get to United and too much work ethic and commitment to fade away. They embraced what they had to do to keep a role in the team. They found that in being converted fullbacks. The circumstances above opened the opportunity, and they grabbed it with both hands.

If half the team took their approach, United would be feared like the old days.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Wrong thread.

Wrong Forum.

 

[ocprodigy]

Anyone who thinks Valencia is not a fullback just because he didn't play there in his early years really doesn't understand or watch football closely enough. Just because you begin your career somewhere, doesn't mean you are "naturally" affiliated with that position. As has been shown with Valencia, he was playing in a position which wasn't his best.

 

[londonredmaniac]

And yet we have the joint best defence in the league.

And yet we give away daft goals in big games and allow opposition big and small ridiculous chances to score. Burnley away, Stoke at home for example. They weren't clean sheets because of great defence. We were shambolic and got bang lucky. Last night could, and should have been 4.

 

[Fully Fledged]

And yet we have the joint best defence in the league.

We have the best GK in the league. Best in the world.

 

[Glanville95]

I mean Valencia hasn’t been ‘makeshift’ for three years now. He’s simply a very good fullback in his own right. Granted on Young though, he’s adapted well to the switch in position, but he can’t be our first choice leftback.

 

[Oscie]

I mean Valencia hasn’t been ‘makeshift’ for three years now. He’s simply a very good fullback in his own right. Granted on Young though, he’s adapted well to the switch in position, but he can’t be our first choice leftback.

A "very good full back" who's ridiculously limited in going forward, something fairly well established in the modern game as being an integral part of being a full back?

Between Valencia not being able to attack and Young not being able to defend it's enough to give Jack Spratt and his bird the horn.

 

[mitchmouse]

Said this before: Valencia may be OK, maybe even good. But would you play a non centre forward at centre forward? Would you play a non-goalkeeper in goal? No. It is a sad indictment on the club that we have two full backs who are not full backs but "failed" wingers

 

[K2K]

Valencia and Young are more than capable of holding their own in many games. Very capable of looking good, in fact. Capable of having a good run of form. But the fact remains neither are specialists in those roles and at times it really does show.

They've both ended up there by accident. Two players aged 32 who are performing a role that was alien to them for much of, if not all, of their 20s. That isn't to say they're not capable of performing there, but it's odd how we've settled with two make-shift, late comers to the full back role for both positions. At times I think it really does leave us exposed as neither are naturals in their positions. Neither are 'expert' full-backs. When against a higher calibre of opposition where the role requires more than strolling forward and waiting for the chance to cross, I think they really can look exposed, particularly Young.

Valencia is one of the best rightbacks in the world

https://www.fifpro.org/news/list-of-55-most-voted-players-for-world-11/en/

Just another kneejerk thread after a defeat.

 

[Trigg]

Valencia has made the right back spot his own. I have no problems with him what so ever.

I'm not a fan of Young at left back though, Shaw should be playing not least so the manager can assess if we need a new one going forward or not.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Valencia is one of the best rightbacks in the world

https://www.fifpro.org/news/list-of-55-most-voted-players-for-world-11/en/

Just another kneejerk thread after a defeat.

I’m not even going to look at the link. Valencia is nowhere near one of the best rightbacks in the world. Full backs in the modern game should attack and provide width, as there are very few wingers. We have lacked this, and if affects our entire game. If we had two decent fullbacks, they would revolutionise the way we play.

We have become accustomed to having average full backs for far too long, Young and Valencia are both 32, they have done as best they can, but nowhere near good enough.

I am consistently shocked that Valencia is our captain.

 

[K2K]

I’m not even going to look at the link. Valencia is nowhere near one of the best rightbacks in the world. Full backs in the modern game should attack and provide width, as there are very few wingers. We have lacked this, and if affects our entire game. If we had two decent fullbacks, they would revolutionise the way we play.

We have become accustomed to having average full backs for far too long, Young and Valencia are both 32, they have done as best they can, but nowhere near good enough.

I am consistently shocked that Valencia is our captain.

Ok then

As you were then.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Ok then

As you were then.

Could have explained it better - I don’t need to look at a list of players, I can use my own eyes. I don’t need any stats to know the guy can’t cross properly and makes more U turns than the Labour Party.

 

[K2K]

Could have explained it better - I don’t need to look at a list of players, I can use my own eyes. I don’t need any stats to know the guy can’t cross properly and makes more U turns than the Labour Party.

That list was voted for by other professional footballers. He must be doing something right in a club like ours to make it there.

No one is saying Valencia has no weaknesses. But there isnt a single right back out there who doesn't.

He rock solid defensively and provides goals and assists in attack. His crossing can improve but there is more to that role than mere crossing.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Valencia is constantly beaten with the "converted winger" stick as if it hinders him in any way at all. Even as a winger, his game was based around work-rate and speed. His game was safe and defensively he was very aware. When he was shifted to full back, his positioning was suspect, but every other part of his game was very strong; great tackler, great ball retention in dangerous areas, rarely beaten for pace or strength. His positioning is much, much better now and he's a very good full back. His role is that of a defender, and his defending is mostly very good. I think his overall technique is incredibly underrated. You could blast the ball at him out of a cannon, and he'd kill it dead. Crucial out on the touchline when there's so little space to operate in.

I don't mind Young. I don't think he's adapted to the role as well as Valencia in terms of being a defender, but he's a good player to have in that position particularly against lesser teams when there is less defending to be done. He's still a good crosser and causes problems for his opposite number. I still want to believe Shaw is the future, but he keeps getting shunted from the 11 for the big games when I think we all just want to see him getting a solid run of games week in week out and make the position his own.

I'd be happy for Shaw to get more games and be trusted in the bigger fixtures with Young as back up, and for Valencia to be first choice with some backup for him (so long as the backup is not Darmian, but unfortunately, he is).

 

[Oscie]

Calling Valencia one of the best right backs in the world is an almost enviable level of delusion. He's a convert to the position of who has achieved a decent level of competence in that new role. But even if he came out the vagina as a full back and played there all his life his limitations on what he can offer going forward would alone preclude him from any proclamations of being the best in the world, or even among the best, in his position.

People are impressed with how he's managed to adapt himself to be able to play right back and that's fair enough. He also looks better than often what's on the other side of the pitch, that's fair enough too. In context, all things considering, looking at it from certain angles etc, etc, Valencia is a good right back. Looking at it objectively, there isn't anyone on the planet not associated and/or a fan of the club who would even consider Valencia to be among the elite right backs in the game.

 

[poleglass red]

I'm not a huge fan of Valencia at right back. Defensive wise he's sounds, but for an attacking outlet he's very poor.I think the modern full back has to be an attacking threat, and maybe because our right hand side has been so poor this season his lack of attacking quality is highlighted more. The few times he drives forward and doesn't cut back to play it sideways or backwards he looks good, but those are far and few between. I thought Trippier was top class v us in the Spurs game. A constant threat down that side, none of our full backs give us threat. Young has some good assists this season, but in contrast to Valencia he is suspect defensively. I'd be more inclined to persist with Shaw at left back for now, I like the genuine pace he has.

 

[Oscie]

I'm not a huge fan of Valencia at right back. Defensive wise he's sounds, but for an attacking outlet he's very poor.I think the modern full back has to be an attacking threat, and maybe because our right hand side has been so poor this season his lack of attacking quality is highlighted more.

Quite. Even if you ignore everything else and don't think he's a make-shift right back, when one of the requirements of a modern full-back is to contribute towards the attack, nobody as limited as him in that area has any business being considered among the best right-backs around. His defensive work isn't bad but I'd hardly call him among the elites in their particular area either.

He's a right back who's limited in one of the most important parts of the role and who holds his own defensively. None of those ingredients could possibly go into make one of the best right backs in the world. Else we might as well identify a keeper who can't deal with crosses but is decent on one on ones and declare him "among the best keepers in the world!" - which he blatantly wouldn't be.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Lee O'Connor is one of the best players in the academy and should be stepping up in the next couple of years.

I've seen him play a few times actually and he looks the goods. But this kind of reinforces my point, there is a total draft of wind sound when you open the lid on who we can put into our back-line when Valencia/Shaw are out. It is probably a minor position to have hundreds of backup players in, I know but even if we sign a fullback for the right hand side that can organically push Valencia out of the starting line up then that would be a start, as people have said (which I COMPLETELY disagree with) that Valencia is one of the best RB's in the PL. If we can find a player to push him out then it would obviously mean they would have to be one of the best RB's in the PL? Would it not?..

I'd like to go back to Ferguson's "CB Apprenticeship" model where young CB's are thrown in as fullbacks but the core of our team just isn't stable enough for that to happen. SAF's stability and leadership down the center of the park meant we could make these sorts of things happen. Which will take some getting used to different ways than the old demigod's man management!