Why is La Liga so far ahead in Europe?

[JPRouve]

That doesn't hold when you've got managers like Pellegrini and LVG - both of whom have had their successes in the CL, the latter's ostensibly greater than the former's, but still...

Pellegrini didn't built the team and LVG hasn't really played in Europe with us. Also I mean at every level, in la Liga mid table teams are well coached.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Pellegrini didn't built the team and LVG hasn't really played in Europe with us.

Oh, I thought you were reacting to today. Fair enough.

 

[Theonas]

That doesn't hold when you've got managers like Pellegrini and LVG - both of whom have had their successes in the CL, the latter's ostensibly greater than the former's, but still...

Actually he has a point. The thing is it's not just about the managers as most times they are powerless to control the emotions of the English game. I read an interview with Alonso who spoke about the same thing, the gist of it was that he found it difficult to play a more thoughtful game in England because of the attitude of fans and oppositions as once you get the ball, it is considered boring if you don't get it up as quick as possible. Van Gaal seems to be very stubborn though, he will insist on his style and I think he (we) will be different as there are already clear signs in place. He seems like he doesn't get moved by the craziness and emotion of the English game and he doesn't allow his players to either. You can point out to many other managers who stated quite clearly that in England it's much more emotional which is why it's more exciting for us at least. Those Spanish clubs get to practice their game week in week out, they work on it and master the art of game management and control. Our teams go for it on a game by game basis trying to manoeuvre a new way to get the best out of every 90mins which effectively ends up being about who has the strongest centre back and most skilful offensive player without any built cohesion.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I just don´t understand the tactics mention since the english top clubs are mostly managed by foreign managers. I think it´s about cycles. Spain is on top atm but it will change in the future. Always been like that.

23 European trophies won by Spanish clubs since 2000, 6 by English. Its a mighty long cycle isn't it?

My theory is, The PL whilst is a great league to watch, hurts the teams inside it more than it helps when it comes to playing foreign teams. The PL is vastly different to all the other European leagues, and for some reason we cant turn that into a positive thing for us. When the English teams play outside of the league we adapt to the 'continental way', which pretty much means we are adapting to how the other leagues play football. All the other top European leagues play similarly with La Liga having the best teams. As long as we are adapting to them rather than imposing our game on them, I don't think the English teams will ever reign supreme in the same way the Spanish teams do.

 

[Scorpy]

Let's roll the clock back to 2008

• Manchester United have just won the Champions League but England have failed to reach the Euros.
• English clubs are easily the best in Europe, with 3 out of 4 semi finalists in 2007 and 2008 (and 2009). In fact in 2008, no England club was knocked out by any other nationality of club.

Then Spain win the Euros in summer 2008. Barcelona win everything in existence in 2009. Spain win the World Cup in 2010. Barcelona win everything in existence in 2011. Spain win Euro 2012. Madrid and Madrid compete for the 2014 Champions League and Barcelona win nearly everything in existence in 2015...

I think there are two factors at play. First, Spain basically have a fantastic group of Spaniards at every age level. A Spanish XI of players based NOT in Spain would probably destroy any English XI you put out.

Secondly, just like Arsenal raised the bar with the Invisibles and Chelsea raised the bar further with the record breakers, and United met the challenge with the European Double winners.. there is a case of teams competing and out competing each other, which raises the standard of the whole league. When you've been playing super-Barcelona and Real Madrid at least 4 times a year for the past 8 years, the league improves. Atletico Madrid gave them a go. A few other clubs might raise their game to compete.

I dont think you can have use excuses other than to say Spanish football is pretty good right now.

Edit:

Oh, and after the Invicibles (2004), the Record-Breakers (2005) and the European Double Winners (2008), English football didn't push on. United lost Ronaldo and regressed slowly, slowly, then quickly. Chelsea lost Mourinho and regressed slowly, slowly then quickly. Arsenal gave up trying to win titles. Liverpool bought Andy Carroll. City have never truly pushed the league on.

Good post, agree with everything.

 

[Rezyuz]

Because for the past 10 years they developed mind and technique instead of England body and pace.

 

[fontaine]

I think English teams get too used to playing direct teams in premier league, and have struggle when other european teams play with another tempo (more patient). I say that because its happening in Brazil too; it's changing little by little, with the teams trying to value posession more. If England also makes the adjustment (stoke, norwitch, etc play with the ball) they will catch up.

 

[Jorsett]

23 European trophies won by Spanish clubs since 2000, 6 by English..

Holy crud, that is mental.

 

[JPRouve]

Also British fans, owners and pundits are mixing up roster with team, you can have a great roster and a shit team.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I think English teams get too used to playing direct teams in premier league, and have struggle when other european teams play with another tempo (more patient). I say that because its happening in Brazil too; it's changing little by little, with the teams trying to value posession more. If England also makes the adjustment (stoke, norwitch, etc play with the ball) they will catch up.

But, none of the teams representing England in the CL play direct Football.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Actually he has a point. The thing is it's not just about the managers as most times they are powerless to control the emotions of the English game. I read an interview with Alonso who spoke about the same thing, the gist of it was that he found it difficult to play a more thoughtful game in England because of the attitude of fans and oppositions as once you get the ball, it is considered boring if you don't get it up as quick as possible. Van Gaal seems to be very stubborn though, he will insist on his style and I think he (we) will be different as there are already clear signs in place. He seems like he doesn't get moved by the craziness and emotion of the English game and he doesn't allow his players to either. You can point out to many other managers who stated quite clearly that in England it's much more emotional which is why it's more exciting for us at least. Those Spanish clubs get to practice their game week in week out, they work on it and master the art of game management and control. Our teams go for it on a game by game basis trying to manoeuvre a new way to get the best out of every 90mins which effectively ends up being about who has the strongest centre back and most skilful offensive player without any built cohesion.

I think English teams get too used to playing direct teams in premier league, and have struggle when other european teams play with another tempo (more patient). I say that because its happening in Brazil too; it's changing little by little, with the teams trying to value posession more. If England also makes the adjustment (stoke, norwitch, etc play with the ball) they will catch up.

Yep I agree fully with both you. Extends on my point that we are playing vastly different to the rest of the world. Its exciting but its not good for us when we play someone else. The term 'game management' is alien to the PL, Its all about attacking and defending as much as possible.


Random but this reminds me of back in the day when I used to play my cousins and friends on Pro Evo all the time and got used to how we play each other. I honestly thought we were the best Pro Evo players in the world - skip a few years later and I go to Uni and play other people I don't normally play and get blown away. I was too used to playing the same way.

 

[fontaine]

But, none of the teams representing England in the CL play direct Football.

That's the thing; the big English sides all have international coaches etc. But they have to play the direct teams every week for a year almost, so even if they have experienced players; their team is built to play the direct teams and have a tough time "changing the chip" in Europe.

 

[carvajal]

I think that english fans must be more demanding with the players. City lost today, the fans expressed their displeasure leaving the stadium earlier. If Sevilla had lost clearly today or Valencia tomorrow the response wouldn´t be so simple and of course, imagine the week of hell in Madrid(training ground, banners in the highways, press) if they had lost against a team of the dutch league. The lack of demand can cause complacency.
In any case it is only one factor and a personal opinion, in the rest I agree with

They are better coached, the teams are built around a core of players who play the same football and they are continuously pro active, they have a game plan and execute it. I'm always under the impression that English teams thrive in chaos and struggle when the game is "organized".

 

[JPRouve]

That's the thing; the big English sides all have international coaches etc. But they have to play the direct teams every week for a year almost, so even if they have experienced players; their team is built to play the direct teams and have a tough time "changing the chip" in Europe.

And the game always end up in a sort of chaos, English teams need to be able to control the tempo of the game, that's what possession football is all about, when you master it you are able to kill the tempo and revive it at will, English teams are always tributary(?) of the opponent.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I think that english fans must be more demanding with the players. City lost today, the fans expressed their displeasure leaving the stadium earlier. If Sevilla had lost clearly today or Valencia tomorrow the response wouldn´t be so simple and of course, imagine the week of hell in Madrid(training ground, banners in the highways, press) if they had lost against a team of the dutch league. The lack of demand can cause complacency.
In any case it is only one factor and a personal opinion, in the rest I agree with

Madrid went about 5 years without going past the second round, there must have been a lot of weeks of hell in that period.

 

[Theonas]

Yep I agree fully with both you. Extends on my point that we are playing vastly different to the rest of the world. Its exciting but its not good for us when we play someone else. The term 'game management' is alien to the PL, Its all about attacking and defending as much as possible.


Random but this reminds me of back in the day when I used to play my cousins and friends on Pro Evo all the time and got used to how we play each other. I honestly thought we were the best Pro Evo players in the world - skip a few years later and I go to Uni and play other people I don't normally play and get blown away. I was too used to playing the same way.

The ironic thing is that in a funny way, it's not a players issue at all. If you consider how much is asked of the PL player, it really is amazing when you compare. A holding midfielder in the continent is actually appreciated if he slows the game down, he is given wide men that come inside, a high defence line and plenty of midfield options. Compare this to someone like Carrick over here and he is pretty much asked to be a box to box, goalscoring, hard tackler. When our teams lose, our pundits immediately compare the player to whatever prejudiced idea of what a player in that specific position should be doing and the conclusion comes inevitably that he is "not good enough". I was speaking to an Italian friend a while ago, his English was a bit broken but he might have summed the English way better than anyone when he called it "you guys always want to play, play. It's very fun to watch you guys."

 

[Keeps It tidy]

That's the thing; the big English sides all have international coaches etc. But they have to play the direct teams every week for a year almost, so even if they have experienced players; their team is built to play the direct teams and have a tough time "changing the chip" in Europe.

I always feel it is a myth that all teams in England are trying to play direct and that all teams in Spain are trying to play tiki taka. In England you have your Swansea's and Southampton's trying to play the ball on the ground in Spain you have your Levante's and Eibar's who don't

 

[Theonas]

And the game always end up in a sort of chaos, English teams need to be able to control the tempo of the game, that's what possession football is all about, when you master it you are able to kill the tempo and revive it at will, English teams are always tributary(?) of the opponent.

If the problems of English football could be summed up in one phrase, that would be it. We really do not see it since it's how we are used to football but the sheer craziness of English games is quite amazing. When we play lower teams and are 2/0 up at half time, they can easily get a lucky goal and what happens after that? the crowd goes nuts cheering for everything, the tackles start flying in and the high balls bombarded to your area. No amount of tactics or strategy can deal with that. In England we mistake this for actual quality because it does work from time to time when it's actually just old fashioned pluckiness. As I said before however, Van Gaal seems to be crazy enough to refuse to adapt to these unique demands (getting a big centre back that will deal with this chaos when it ensues). Whereas that would make him another Wenger or if it will actually work and he will end up revolutionizing English football is a question only time will answer.

 

[Theonas]

I always feel it is a myth that all teams in England are trying to play direct and that all teams in Spain are trying to play tiki taka. In England you have your Swansea's and Southampton's trying to play the ball on the ground in Spain you have your Levante's and Eibar's who don't

It is a myth that it's as black and white as you put it but we kinda take it for granted that we're talking relatives here. The rythm, tempo and physicality of the English game is something almost every foreigner have pointed out when they come working in England. They can't all be out of their minds can they.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

It is a myth that it's as black and white as you put it but we kinda take it for granted that we're talking relatives here. The rythm, tempo and physicality of the English game is something almost every foreigner have pointed out when they come working in England. They can't all be out of their minds can they.

But, there is a big difference between playing at a high tempo and playing direct.

 

[The Law of Denis]

Because despite the increase in spending and sponsorship the quality in the top of the league is in severe decline. None of the top teams, apart from City of course, are as good as they were in the mid 2000s.

Arsenal never recovered from breaking up their invincibles too early
We were never the same after selling Ronaldo
Chelsea, although consistent, were always a level below after Mourinho first left
Liverpool capitulated after breaking up Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard-Torres

And the only team that should compete, Man City, is pathetic in Europe

 

[carvajal]

Madrid went about 5 years without going past the second round, there must have been a lot of weeks of hell in that period.

and Pellegrini lost his job for the failure, because the investment did not correspond with the results, however, after the disaster of last year there is , failing again with City.

 

[maze]

i'm sitting here, failing to come up with a single englishman playing outside of the UK.

 

[JPRouve]

i'm sitting here, failing to come up with a single englishman playing outside of the UK.

I won't try to interpret your thoughts, but the only reason you won't find one is because they are too expensive in wages and transfer fees.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Because despite the increase in spending and sponsorship the quality in the top of the league is in severe decline. None of the top teams, apart from City of course, are as good as they were in the mid 2000s.

Arsenal never recovered from breaking up their invincibles too early
We were never the same after selling Ronaldo
Chelsea, although consistent, were always a level below after Mourinho first left
Liverpool capitulated after breaking up Mascherano-Alonso-Gerrard-Torres

And the only team that should compete, Man City, is pathetic in Europe

Arsene's greatest teams (Strong, fast and Powerful aka built for the Prem) never did much of note in Europe. Chelsea too, as great as that team in the mid 2000s was, it didn't do anything in Europe. Luckily for us, Fergie had finally come round to the idea of European football by the mid 2000s and had the team to pull it off. but before that, his other teams again didn't do too well in Europe either. What im saying is, this started way before the mid 2000's.

i'm sitting here, failing to come up with a single englishman playing outside of the UK.

Ravel Morison is in Lazio....thats the best I could do.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I won't try to interpret your thoughts, but the only reason you won't find one is because they are too expensive in wages and transfer fees.

Plus why would they leave they already play in the best league in the World

Who is going to take the bait

 

[prarek]

i'm sitting here, failing to come up with a single englishman playing outside of the UK.

Not many european clubs can afford an English player. Too expensive.

 

[Lay]

They know how to defend as a unit.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

They know how to defend as a unit.

There has been a lot of lazy cliches sprouted here but, this statement is actually true.

 

[RK]

Random but this reminds me of back in the day when I used to play my cousins and friends on Pro Evo all the time and got used to how we play each other. I honestly thought we were the best Pro Evo players in the world - skip a few years later and I go to Uni and play other people I don't normally play and get blown away. I was too used to playing the same way.

This is a more creative way of how I'd sum it up. But there are many factors, and it's cyclical.

 

[Obiorahking_]

Because they have way better players?

 

[Theafonis]

*Waiting for one of those essay writers to come and give an in-depth analysis on why, just so i can write this underneath*

@Invictus

 

[Theafonis]

Madrid's best team is made up of two Spanish starters. That's pretty much a fact.

Hell, Barca 'only' have 4 primary Spanish starters.

A. Madrid today had 4.

The problem lies in English football's scouting system, youth system and transfer decisions. All sub-par compared to La Liga teams.

Coaching too.

La Liga boasts a number of elite coaches that have Continental Pro License and all that jazz. English football lacks these elite types of coaches. Also the premier league doesn't really focus on coaching, and instead focuses on things like individual players and the manager.

 

[Theafonis]

Because for the past 10 years they developed mind and technique instead of England body and pace.

Sevilla is quite a physical team in terms of relishing aerial duels and fighting for every loose ball. Barca, Madrid, and Atletico all use effective pressing systems designed to win the ball back as soon as possible. I don't agree with the argument that Spanish teams aren't physical.

 

[Theonas]

But, there is a big difference between playing at a high tempo and playing direct.

True. Linguistics can be misleading indeed. My point is that English clubs play with less game management and general tactical thoughtfulness than their counter part in the continent. The crowd urges them as it is ingrained in the culture to go for it and play the end to end game we crave so much. This leads to English clubs severely undercooked when it comes to how much they practice the skills required to control a game, recycle possession, manage their effort and so on. Add to that the physical toll of the PL and you get clubs that ask too much from their players physically as well as lack of practice of tactical coaching practices. When English clubs were at their best in the mid '00s, it was mainly thanks to power and strong defensive organisation and not because we actually outplayed our opponents. Our best team of the decade only beat Barcelona's worst through stopping them rather than dominating them.

The problem however now is that clubs are stuck between two minds. Barcelona and Bayern raised the standards and it is no longer enough to win. You are actually required to dominate, be authoritative and be in control of games whether that's through possession (Barcelona) or dynamism and speed (Bayern) does not matter. English clubs are trying to adopt this pro active approach but failing due to the points mentioned earlier. The way I see it in my opinion is we can accept our limitations and go Italian style, go back to strong defensive partnerships and play to stop the continental teams, problem with that is that you need game changers in attack and we don't seem to be able to attract those. Either that or we can keep trying to reach that tactical level, in our case Van Gaal is as good as anyone to do that for us but whereas that would succeed or not is an entirely different question. The nature of the league, competence of Van Gaal, willingness of players and patience of board and fans are all factors that would have a say in answering that question.

 

[Theonas]

Coaching too.

La Liga boasts a number of elite coaches that have Continental Pro License and all that jazz. English football lacks these elite types of coaches. Also the premier league doesn't really focus on coaching, and instead focuses on things like individual players and the manager.

I agree 100%. Coaching is so undervalued to a crazy level. It's difficult to know whether it's undervalued because it actually does not work in England or if it doesn't work because we never give it a chance. Top coaches like Wenger are constantly being nullified by spoiling tactics and are told to go down the dirty road like the "rest of us". It is managers who succeed like Fergie and Mourinho, people whose strengths is management of people, transfers, league campaign and so on. Van Gaal seems extremely stubborn and he is as much of a coach as anyone in the world, I am really intrigued how he will fare.

 

[Roman Bellic]

True. Linguistics can be misleading indeed. My point is that English clubs play with less game management and general tactical thoughtfulness than their counter part in the continent. The crowd urges them as it is ingrained in the culture to go for it and play the end to end game we crave so much. This leads to English clubs severely undercooked when it comes to how much they practice the skills required to control a game, recycle possession, manage their effort and so on. Add to that the physical toll of the PL and you get clubs that ask too much from their players physically as well as lack of practice of tactical coaching practices. When English clubs were at their best in the mid '00s, it was mainly thanks to power and strong defensive organisation and not because we actually outplayed our opponents. Our best team of the decade only beat Barcelona's worst through stopping them rather than dominating them.

The problem however now is that clubs are stuck between two minds. Barcelona and Bayern raised the standards and it is no longer enough to win. You are actually required to dominate, be authoritative and be in control of games whether that's through possession (Barcelona) or dynamism and speed (Bayern) does not matter. English clubs are trying to adopt this pro active approach but failing due to the points mentioned earlier. The way I see it in my opinion is we can accept our limitations and go Italian style, go back to strong defensive partnerships and play to stop the continental teams, problem with that is that you need game changers in attack and we don't seem to be able to attract those. Either that or we can keep trying to reach that tactical level, in our case Van Gaal is as good as anyone to do that for us but whereas that would succeed or not is an entirely different question. The nature of the league, competence of Van Gaal, willingness of players and patience of board and fans are all factors that would have a say in answering that question.

This.

 

[Stack]

They are better coached, the teams are built around a core of players who play the same football and they are continuously pro active, they have a game plan and execute it. I'm always under the impression that English teams thrive in chaos and struggle when the game is "organized".

What you are saying here is essentially it. It begins from when they are young but Spanish football is essentially built around Rondo's which are small sided games. The important thing is these building blocks inherently teach the players tactical ideas as well. In Spain from juniors through to the top teams they use Rondos more than other countries. I know this seems simplistic but its one of the core reasons they are so good.
The best explanation of this i can find is here.
http://www.slideshare.net/Kieran85uk/rondos-how-to-use-spains-secret-weapon

Read the text below the slideshow, its essentially the slideshow but probably faster to work through.

 

[Stack]

I agree 100%. Coaching is so undervalued to a crazy level. It's difficult to know whether it's undervalued because it actually does not work in England or if it doesn't work because we never give it a chance. Top coaches like Wenger are constantly being nullified by spoiling tactics and are told to go down the dirty road like the "rest of us". It is managers who succeed like Fergie and Mourinho, people whose strengths is management of people, transfers, league campaign and so on. Van Gaal seems extremely stubborn and he is as much of a coach as anyone in the world, I am really intrigued how he will fare.

The coaching that is undervalued in England is junior coaching. Its not an exciting area for fans to discuss but world class junior coaching produces a broader base of top quality adult players.

 

[Theonas]

The coaching that is undervalued in England is junior coaching. Its not an exciting area for fans to discuss but world class junior coaching produces a broader base of top quality adult players.

I can't really disagree with that but I don't think it's the only one. The coaching I was talking about is actual PL level coaching. Our teams do not develop well coached style. Most teams are still coached by British managers with a very different mentality. Most teams try to get some strong defenders, pacey forwards and take it on a game by game basis in terms of game strategy. Ourselves, Arsenal and to a lesser extent Swansea and City are the only teams in the league who you can say have a clear style of play that has been in place for more than a season.