Why is our Transfer Recruitment / Scouting so bad?

JeffFromHK

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Well our scouts did find Caicedo, Enzo and Julian Alvarez whom could be bought at 10M-20M
 

Mylock

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Well our scouts did find Caicedo, Enzo and Julian Alvarez whom could be bought at 10M-20M
The scouts are not the issue, it's the guys closing the deals who are the issue. These scouts identify the players but they don't buy the players, the same issue for the last 18 years , wonder why?
 

Tarrou

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a huge part of the issue is obviously the environment they are coming into

like if if a corrupt police force hires a clean cop, it's only a matter of time before they become dirty too
 

Andersons Dietician

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Hasn’t there been a few stories where Scouts have said to get players or don’t get players and they’ve been ignored and turns out there assessments were correct.

There is obviously more to it, it’s a lot easier to bring new talent in to a successful stable team and bring people through. We just Aren’t that.
 

Chumpsbechumps

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It’s very important they choose the Option to scout for “players with the potential to be special” between 16-18 cause there’s always one or two quality players every season that spawn in that category
 
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whitbyviking

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Scouting is one thing and I don’t think we get a full picture of what actually happens and who is ultimately recommended.

The transfers are often poor because we always seem to be panic buying and sticking a plaster on the team.
 

spenzo

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I remember seeing an interview a few months back with SAF where he said that you have to trust your scouts.

Based on recent years we just haven’t done that at all but have sought to appease the manager at that current time and/or buy based on reputation when the club sees an opportunity.

Blaming the scouting department is ultimately pointing in the wrong direction. As a few have mentioned, multiple top talents have been scouted and likely recommended over the years, but scouts don’t control who we end up going for.
 

Buster15

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I just think that because of United spending power, the scouts and recruitment team just find it too easy to go out and spend big money instead of really doing their jobs and scouring the league's, domestically and internationally for the best emerging talent.

Edit. That should be part of the overall club strategy.
But as others have said, it always seems to be last minute who can we get.
 

cyril C

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There are 5 types of failures.

1. Sanchez - paid a bomb for a player that doesn't fit into the system at all.
Don't think Scouts have anything to do with his recruitment. In fact, I doubt any scouts were invited to speak.

2. Di Maria, Pogba, Depay, Martial - expensive failures in hindsight, but might look good on paper initially.
OK can blame 50% on the Scouts for failure to identify any potential problem

3. Schneiderlin, Darmain, Maguire - shear incompetent.

4. Tosic, Amad - lazy scouts that have probably never watch a game, just pick up the name from a pub.

5. Fellaini, Schweinstiger - manager's choice
 

NewGlory

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This is a surprising twist. Bout was largely considered unsuccessful at United, by fans, and nobody shed tears when he left. Newcastle, on the other hand has been good at recruiting and they think Bout is good enough to head their global recruitement?

Newcastle want to build the best scouting empire in world football and have tasked Manchester United's former head of global scouting Marcel Bout as the man to execute their ambitious vision.
source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/mirror-choice
 

city-puma

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This is a surprising twist. Bout was largely considered unsuccessful at United, by fans, and nobody shed tears when he left. Newcastle, on the other hand has been good at recruiting and they think Bout is good enough to head their global recruitement?



source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/mirror-choice
Is it real? If so, it’s more than ironic. We probably will never know the inside story.
 

Revaulx

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This is a surprising twist. Bout was largely considered unsuccessful at United, by fans, and nobody shed tears when he left. Newcastle, on the other hand has been good at recruiting and they think Bout is good enough to head their global recruitement?



source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/mirror-choice
Yes it’s interesting isn’t it?

Someone at United obviously felt that Bout was worth keeping at the time of the usual clearout of the sacked manager’s staff. I think it was then that he became involved in scouting; wasn’t he brought in by LvG as a video analyst? I wonder how that all came about.

How much influence he had over transfer policy in the Jose and Ole eras is anyone’s guess. On the face of it I suspect very little.
 

Big Ben Foster

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This is a surprising twist. Bout was largely considered unsuccessful at United, by fans, and nobody shed tears when he left. Newcastle, on the other hand has been good at recruiting and they think Bout is good enough to head their global recruitement?



source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/mirror-choice
I'm not shocked. Lends further credence to the idea that the scouting and recruitment people at the club have been marginalized, ignored, and scapegoated over the years.
 

Based Adnan

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Wasn't Bout the guy who said we shouldn't sign De Ligt as a youth player because his Dad was fat?
 

cyril C

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The scouts are not the issue, it's the guys closing the deals who are the issue. These scouts identify the players but they don't buy the players, the same issue for the last 18 years , wonder why?
Completely wrong. Scouts identify the right candidates, DOF (or whatever committee) decides and agree on these candidates. DOF/Negotiator negotiate on deals.

If the candidates are Djemba Djemba, Diouf, Tosic, Mkhit. Then the only issue is that we paid extra pound for rubbish. Had we negotiate a better price for these lots, do you think the squad will be stronger?

If our Scouts identify Mane but DOF thinks Mane is too expensive, and over-rule the Chief Scouts with Valencia, who was never on the radar, because DOF got Valencia's CV from his son/mate, then yes, blame the guy who close the deals.
 

Ágætis Byrjun

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Our transfers are basically statements rather than actually being cleverly planned. We were a bit tight on funds this summer, so instead of signing a free agent in Thuram, we splashed 70m for a lesser proven striker. Because it tells a better story that a childhood Utd fan with loads of potential has been signed.
 

didz

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Wasn't Bout the guy who said we shouldn't sign De Ligt as a youth player because his Dad was fat?
Supposedly, yes. Although the report came from the Daily Mirror and nowhere else, so who knows?

This is a surprising twist. Bout was largely considered unsuccessful at United, by fans, and nobody shed tears when he left. Newcastle, on the other hand has been good at recruiting and they think Bout is good enough to head their global recruitement?



source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/mirror-choice
Newcastle's actual scouting department is relatively unchanged from the Mike Ashley days, the head of first team and technical scouting is Eddie Howe's nephew, and I honestly don't know if there has ever had a 'head of global scouting' in the club's history.

Just because Bout 'failed' with us (he was at the club 4x longer than the guy who brought him in, remember), doesn't mean he isn't a coup for them in their current state. They have Dan Ashworth, yes, but they still have other positions to fill. Seems Marcel Bout's role will be more about future planning, as his focus will be on identifying eligible players in the 16-23 age range, with him based in the Netherlands as other scouts worldwide report to him.

Basically, I don't think Bout getting another job is the right stick to beat the club with. There are plenty more sharp.
 

stefan92

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There are 5 types of failures.

1. Sanchez - paid a bomb for a player that doesn't fit into the system at all.
Don't think Scouts have anything to do with his recruitment. In fact, I doubt any scouts were invited to speak.

2. Di Maria, Pogba, Depay, Martial - expensive failures in hindsight, but might look good on paper initially.
OK can blame 50% on the Scouts for failure to identify any potential problem

3. Schneiderlin, Darmain, Maguire - shear incompetent.

4. Tosic, Amad - lazy scouts that have probably never watch a game, just pick up the name from a pub.

5. Fellaini, Schweinstiger - manager's choice
I'm not going to disagree, but I would like to highlight how difficult it is for us from the outside to know what the scouts actually did in these cases:

1. He didn't fit the system that was played, but maybe another system/role was described to the scouts where he would have been an awesome fit? So maybe they weren't involved at all, maybe they were while given false information about the manager's plans, maybe they made a mistake?

2. Martial I think was mostly turning a problem because of injuries? Nothing the scouts could have known. Di Maria obviously didn't really want to be in United, I am not sure who would be responsible for predicting this to be honest. Pogba also definitely had the quality but not the attitude. Probably something a scouting report should make clear, but also here we just don't know how much damage to his attitude happened after arriving in Manchester (again). Depay I don't really know about.

3. Yes, but I think I would rather group Maguire with Sanchez - in a deep line he can be awesome, playing in a high line doesn't suite him. What was he scouted for, which profile of a CB was given to the scouts to search for?

Don't think I have many thoughts about 4. and 5. though.
 

Mylock

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Completely wrong. Scouts identify the right candidates, DOF (or whatever committee) decides and agree on these candidates. DOF/Negotiator negotiate on deals.

If the candidates are Djemba Djemba, Diouf, Tosic, Mkhit. Then the only issue is that we paid extra pound for rubbish. Had we negotiate a better price for these lots, do you think the squad will be stronger?

If our Scouts identify Mane but DOF thinks Mane is too expensive, and over-rule the Chief Scouts with Valencia, who was never on the radar, because DOF got Valencia's CV from his son/mate, then yes, blame the guy who close the deals.
Your reply is rubbish.
Our scouts identified the correct players - examples Bellingham, Mane, alvarez, Fernadez, Kim Min-jae, de legt and lots of other good players and were completely ignored. All you mention was the players fergie bought that were mistakes. Its well known that United under the Glazers management are notorious for dragging their heels on signing hence paying over the odds for players or not able to close the deals - Harry, Antony, Fallani etc.
 

Baxquux

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I'm not going to disagree, but I would like to highlight how difficult it is for us from the outside to know what the scouts actually did in these cases:

1. He didn't fit the system that was played, but maybe another system/role was described to the scouts where he would have been an awesome fit? So maybe they weren't involved at all, maybe they were while given false information about the manager's plans, maybe they made a mistake?

2. Martial I think was mostly turning a problem because of injuries? Nothing the scouts could have known. Di Maria obviously didn't really want to be in United, I am not sure who would be responsible for predicting this to be honest. Pogba also definitely had the quality but not the attitude. Probably something a scouting report should make clear, but also here we just don't know how much damage to his attitude happened after arriving in Manchester (again). Depay I don't really know about.

3. Yes, but I think I would rather group Maguire with Sanchez - in a deep line he can be awesome, playing in a high line doesn't suite him. What was he scouted for, which profile of a CB was given to the scouts to search for?

Don't think I have many thoughts about 4. and 5. though.
The Amad one is a bit of a stretch. He was rated as one of the most promising young players in Europe within his age bracket. Good technical attributes, low-centre of gravity, pretty smart and can play as ACM, 10 or wide right. Did well in a 'lesser' but definitely physical and competitive league last season. I'd still try him there more consistently over Antony (and Sancho, though think he's gone anyway). If we'd also taken that approach regarding 1-2 midfield players, maybe we wouldn't be in such a quandary now, playing old men and players who won't show for the ball or have any idea how to control play, getting constantly over-run etc....
 

sunama

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Spending 60m-100m on established players don't require scouting network, you only need to watch TV.
Haha. So true.
Even people on this forum could choose players like Arambat, Varane, Frenkie de Jong. And they'd provide their recommendations for free!
 

cyril C

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Your reply is rubbish.
Our scouts identified the correct players - examples Bellingham, Mane, alvarez, Fernadez, Kim Min-jae, de legt and lots of other good players and were completely ignored. All you mention was the players fergie bought that were mistakes. Its well known that United under the Glazers management are notorious for dragging their heels on signing hence paying over the odds for players or not able to close the deals - Harry, Antony, Fallani etc.
You only name the players that may or may not been nominated by Scouts that appear to do well outside of the Club.

Assuming our Scouts nominate Kim, De Ligt, Maguire, Bailly for CB, so all names mentioned were on the list. We couldn't finalise on candidate 1 & 2 but close on #3, and pick up a cheap one #4. Is our Scouts scot-free on error? They did nominate Maguire, right? There are players that you can never achieve, so don't tell me Messi Mbappe were our target so must be Glazer's fault for failing to recruit them.

Let's assume Scouts nominate Kim, De Ligt only. Management never get anywhere near on the deal, and someone slip in a piece of paper recommending Maguire and Bailly, bypassing our Scouts. OK you can blame the Management or committee for allowing someone to bypass the process.
 

devilish

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Traditionally the club had the business side and the football side both of whom complimented one another. TBF the former always won on the latter. For example SAF wasn't allowed to buy Batistuta because it broke the wage structure and after the treble he had to sell a top player (ie Jaap Stam). Having said that for most of the time the financial side was pretty considerate towards the football side, it was aware that money came with success and that ultimately the club was a football club.

When the Glazers took over things started to change. The club was in a dire situation because of the debt and was seeking all sort of ways how to capitalize on everything really. The Glazers didn't dare stepping on SAF's feet but once he left there was no-one to stop them from dominating that area as well. Woodward was given carte blanche, United started buying big names because they helped the brand name and players were kept way past their expiry date as they were seen as assets that looked good in a spread sheet.

At one point pressure started piling up and the club bowed down to that pressure by announcing that they'll searching for a DOF. Turned out that it was all BS and that the DOF in question was Woodward's man Jon Murtough. Thus nothing really changed. We kept giving silly salaries/fees to players, our fitness never really improved and our strategy remained a mix of big names often at the wrong end of their career (ex Varane and Casemiro) and the manager's pets.
 

Florida Man

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I'll write here instead of making a new thread, but I wonder why we don't scout from the top South American leagues more? I'm under the assumption that those leagues are very physical, which could translate well to the Premier League? More specifically, players who've had good experience playing futsal growing up because of how technical and fast paced it is, and we could use players who can handle the ball in tight spaces. Especially good against teams sitting back.

I can't imagine anyone from there is going to break the bank for us in transfer fees nor would it be for wages. If they have a preseason with the team, the manager can determine if they're worth keeping for the first team, put out on loan within England to develop further, or play in the U20s if they're still young. And if it doesn't work out for us, there's still sell-on value.
 

didz

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I'll write here instead of making a new thread, but I wonder why we don't scout from the top South American leagues more? I'm under the assumption that those leagues are very physical, which could translate well to the Premier League? More specifically, players who've had good experience playing futsal growing up because of how technical and fast paced it is, and we could use players who can handle the ball in tight spaces. Especially good against teams sitting back.

I can't imagine anyone from there is going to break the bank for us in transfer fees nor would it be for wages. If they have a preseason with the team, the manager can determine if they're worth keeping for the first team, put out on loan within England to develop further, or play in the U20s if they're still young. And if it doesn't work out for us, there's still sell-on value.
We do scout them of course, but yeah there clearly doesn't seem to be so much follow through with it right now.

Portuguese clubs offer a tried and tested model for developing talent from South America, while the most prodigious talents get hoovered up by Barca and Madrid, so you can see the difficulty. Also, getting a good player out of a Brasil Serie A club is about the same as getting them out of a good European club these days in terms of raw transfer fees these days. Then there's all the third party ownership stuff and agency muk that we don't seem particularly well equipped to handle.
 

Crashoutcassius

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The scouts are not the issue, it's the guys closing the deals who are the issue. These scouts identify the players but they don't buy the players, the same issue for the last 18 years , wonder why?
Every club in world football knew about these players. Like, if it was in the mirror that united 'looking at caicedo', do you think other clubs are looking at that saying who ????
Closing a deal isn't just saying 'sign' either.
You need to offer players a role and a plan. We are bad at that
 

Florida Man

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We do scout them of course, but yeah there clearly doesn't seem to be so much follow through with it right now.

Portuguese clubs offer a tried and tested model for developing talent from South America, while the most prodigious talents get hoovered up by Barca and Madrid, so you can see the difficulty. Also, getting a good player out of a Brasil Serie A club is about the same as getting them out of a good European club these days in terms of raw transfer fees these days. Then there's all the third party ownership stuff and agency muk that we don't seem particularly well equipped to handle.
Highest transfer fees from Argentina and Brazil never maxed out over 45M€ with the exception of Neymar. And if we looked even further, Uruguayan and Colombian leagues never had one over 12M€. I never considered the compliations with 3rd party ownership though, so you're probably right for the grand scheme of things.
 

didz

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Highest transfer fees from Argentina and Brazil never maxed out over 45M€ with the exception of Neymar. And if we looked even further, Uruguayan and Colombian leagues never had one over 12M€. I never considered the compliations with 3rd party ownership though, so you're probably right for the grand scheme of things.
I was more referring to the market in the here and now. Endrick (17) and Victor Roque (18) are making moves for €72m and €61m, all told, respectively. Both deals will be complete in the summer. Then you've got Andre at Fluminese who will probably go for in excess of €40m.

I don't know exactly what has happened, but the fees in Brazil (specifically) seem to be on the up. As you rightly say, everywhere else in South America looks a lot cheaper. It's just everything else that seems to be a barrier!
 

Florida Man

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I was more referring to the market in the here and now. Endrick (17) and Victor Roque (18) are making moves for €72m and €61m, all told, respectively. Both deals will be complete in the summer. Then you've got Andre at Fluminese who will probably go for in excess of €40m.

I don't know exactly what has happened, but the fees in Brazil (specifically) seem to be on the up. As you rightly say, everywhere else in South America looks a lot cheaper. It's just everything else that seems to be a barrier!
Oh wow, I didn't even know about those. I guess the flood gates have just opened then, at least for Brazilian league. I still maintain that we find players who've had a history of playing futsal though. I know this is popular in Spain, Portugal, and other South American countries besides Brazil.
 

Oranges038

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Every club in world football knew about these players. Like, if it was in the mirror that united 'looking at caicedo', do you think other clubs are looking at that saying who ????
Closing a deal isn't just saying 'sign' either.
You need to offer players a role and a plan. We are bad at that
Yeah, you'd have to be mental to think otherwise. The days of a scout watching a game somewhere and spotting a player no one has heard of before are probably well gone.
 

AndySmith1990

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Yeah, you'd have to be mental to think otherwise. The days of a scout watching a game somewhere and spotting a player no one has heard of before are probably well gone.
Brighton seem to fill their team with quality players no fecker has heard of
 

Oranges038

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Brighton seem to fill their team with quality players no fecker has heard of
You'd have to imagine other teams have been interested or at least looked at some of them at some point. 3 Brighton players.

Enciso was linked to other English and Spanish clubs, made his international debut at 17.

Ferguson had offers from several PL clubs but chose Brighton.

Buononotte was linked to Juve, Spurs & Liverpool before joining Brighton.
 

bitcoin

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Brighton seem to fill their team with quality players no fecker has heard of
No doubt their scouting setup is a well oiled machine but there’s something to be said for a player wanting to join a stepping stone club like Brighton where they know the route into the first team is easier and where they won’t have the scrutiny they would get at United.

This is where having Nice and Lausanne as part of the same group might help; we can potentially load those those teams with promising players (whilst also avoiding the United tax) and see how they perform in a competitive environment simultaneously dangling the carrot of a move to United if they perform well.

A bit like the RB Salzburg to Leipzig conveyor belt.
 

Crashoutcassius

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No doubt their scouting setup is a well oiled machine but there’s something to be said for a player wanting to join a stepping stone club like Brighton where they know the route into the first team is easier and where they won’t have the scrutiny they would get at United.

This is where having Nice and Lausanne as part of the same group might help; we can potentially load those those teams with promising players (whilst also avoiding the United tax) and see how they perform in a competitive environment simultaneously dangling the carrot of a move to United if they perform well.

A bit like the RB Salzburg to Leipzig conveyor belt.
Exactly
 

istripador

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I was more referring to the market in the here and now. Endrick (17) and Victor Roque (18) are making moves for €72m and €61m, all told, respectively. Both deals will be complete in the summer. Then you've got Andre at Fluminese who will probably go for in excess of €40m.

I don't know exactly what has happened, but the fees in Brazil (specifically) seem to be on the up. As you rightly say, everywhere else in South America looks a lot cheaper. It's just everything else that seems to be a barrier!
television/sponsorship contract.
 

slaggy

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my uncle was a football scout in the late 80s into early aughts and now turned agent. he was always on about how clubs have become too corporate and things being stuck at legal levels and how he used to prefer owners or owners reps who used to barge into negotiations and create leverage for themselves and also how they used to treat the business of sport like a sport of their own. ironically he's part of the system now that creates layers between the different factions including brands and publicists and social media teams.

his main pov is that scouts used to be able to get involved in the negotiating on a personal level with the players, the managers, the executives in the middle, and the club owners/board. now scouts are less floaters in the corporations and kept in a very siloed level where they only identify and manage the early relationships, before they get handed off to executives and analysts who create 2-3x layers between where the identification starts and where it gets managed and closed. he reckons man utd has one of the worst and bloats corporate structures in the sport but a great scouting structure, but thats why we've lost so many good talents in the system. too many cooks in the kitchen and all that.
 

sugar_kane

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Murtough and Ten Hag have rightly received a lot of criticism for their signings but it feels like for the first time in ages our first eleven has a few players I'd be legitimately concerned about losing to other top sides in the next few years.

Hojlund, Garnacho and Martinez for certain, but I could easily see Dalot becoming desirable for a top team if he keeps up the way he's playing. Mainoo could easily end up on that list if he fulfils his early promise, luckily he's a local lad so maybe not.

It makes a change from having players on the final years of their career on ridiculous wages - we've still got a few of them but it seems the tide is turning.