Why Messi is not the GOAT

[Ji_Maria]

This isn't a CR7 vs. Ronaldo thread. This is solely focused on Messi.

If you take any so-called "GOAT" from basically any other sport, and you put them in any team, they will easily be the best player in that team wherever they play. They will easily be the best player in any tournament.

Take Lebron James. He stands heads and shoulders above anyone he has ever played with, and even when losing, he is clearly the best player on the court.

Same goes for Rugby or any other sport I can think of.

Messi looks good playing for Barca WHEN Barca are winning. When Barca are losing, Messi looks awful. This leads to the logical conclusion that Messi is only good when Barca is good, and in fact, Barca is a big factor in Messi's individual successes.

I can think of 5 other players who were indisputedly far better than Messi this World Cup. There are probably 20 other players who were arguably better than Messi this World Cup, even while they were losing. Messi can't even crack top 5 players in an entire tournament of players. What a failure.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Ever seen him live or played with/against him?

 

[Foxtrot]

Absolute garbage. Why don't you name the 20 other players whom you mentioned are better while losing? Football is a collective team sport unlike basketball where one key player can make all the difference.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Ever seen him live or played with/against him?

Yes I've seen him live. I've also seen Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Henry, CR7, and numerous other greats of the modern era live. Messi is arguably the greatest of the "EA sports" generation, but he's no Michael Jordan.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Yes I've seen him live. I've also seen Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Henry, CR7, and numerous other greats of the modern era live. Messi is arguably the greatest of the "EA sports" generation, but he's no Michael Jordan.

Your OP had LeBron as a greatest of all time example.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Lock this thread mods. No 13 year olds allowed

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Ji_Maria

You must have taken pics at the nou camp. Show me.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Absolute garbage. Why don't you name the 20 other players whom you mentioned are better while losing? Football is a collective team sport unlike basketball where one key player can make all the difference.

Tell that to Ronaldo Lima who despite joining a struggling Inter Milan team during the Juventus era, was clearly the best player in Italy.

Twenty other players who are better than Messi this WC? I'll name just a few who were undisputedly better.

-Neymar
-Ronaldo
-Mbappe
-Pogba
-Harry Kane
-Perisic
-Modric

Better while losing (England vs. Croatia, several more had better ratings than Messi when Argentina lost to Croatia):

-Trippier
-Sterling
-Rashford

 

[Ji_Maria]

Lock this thread mods. No 13 year olds allowed

Lol I been a member of CAF longer than you child.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Your OP had LeBron as a greatest of all time example.

Yes, because Lebron James is most recent and despite losing to the Warriors, Lebron was clearly the best player of the tournament. I'm guessing most of the members here aren't old enough to remember watching Michael Jordan playing in the 80s/90s.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Tell that to Ronaldo Lima who despite joining a struggling Inter Milan team during the Juventus era, was clearly the best player in Italy.

Twenty other players who are better than Messi this WC? I'll name just a few who were undisputedly better.

-Neymar
-Ronaldo
-Mbappe
-Pogba
-Harry Kane
-Perisic
-Modric

Better while losing (England vs. Croatia, several more had better ratings than Messi when Argentina lost to Croatia):

-Trippier
-Sterling
-Rashford

Sterling and Rashford

 

[Ji_Maria]

Sterling and Rashford

Once you figure out how to read, based on player ratings.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44801054

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44515144

There you go champ. Messi was rated 3.9!!!!! Lol!

If you don't trust BBC, Gaurdian and other sources have similar numbers. Lol!

Also, from my OP, lest you forget:

"There are probably 20 other players who were arguably better than Messi this World Cup, even while they were losing."

 

[An Irish Red]

Once you figure out how to read, based on player ratings.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44801054

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44515144

There you go champ. Messi was rated 3.9!!!!! Lol!

If you don't trust BBC, Gaurdian and other sources have similar numbers. Lol!

Any player ratings that claim Sterling (poor world cup) and Rashford (abysmal world cup) were better than Messi are so ridiculous that they aren't worth citing.

 

[shamans]

I'm a Ronaldo fanboy and believe he is the GOAT but this is kind of poor logic against Messi. Many times his team has lost while he has been the only guy capable of trying to do something.

There are reasons why I don't think Messi is the GOAT these things are personal preferences. People need to stop shoving their opinions down others throats with this GOAT stuff

 

[Ji_Maria]

Any player ratings that claim Sterling (poor world cup) and Rashford (abysmal world cup) were better than Messi are so ridiculous that they aren't worth citing.

So I guess BBC and Guardian ratings are utter garbage and should never be cited or referenced on the Caf? Btw, those ratings weren't that great for Sterling or Rashford (5-6ish), but let's be honest, Messi was abysmal against Croatio.

Just to clarify, the ratings are purely to show player performance when the team is losing.

 

[Ji_Maria]

I'm a Ronaldo fanboy and believe he is the GOAT but this is kind of poor logic against Messi. Many times his team has lost while he has been the only guy capable of trying to do something.

There are reasons why I don't think Messi is the GOAT these things are personal preferences. People need to stop shoving their opinions down others throats with this GOAT stuff

I would love to hear of instances where Messi was trying to do something while playing for Argentina. Yes, I accept that Messi was by far the best player for Barca, but that Barca team (at least until 12-13) was a very special team to begin with. I think if you replaced Messi with say current Neymar or Suarez in Barca 08-11, you'd have the exact same results. You can tell how special that Barca team was by looking at the Spain NT during that same period.

 

[OutlawGER]

This isn't a CR7 vs. Ronaldo thread.

Ok.

 

[RedDevil@84]

If you are saying that Sterling who played 6 matches in this WC has played better than Messi who has played 4 matches, one of which ended up with Argentina losing abysmally, then maybe you are right.
But it doesn't help your GOAT argument in anyway.

 

[Ji_Maria]

If you are saying that Sterling who played 6 matches in this WC has played better than Messi who has played 4 matches, one of which ended up with Argentina losing abysmally, then maybe you are right.
But it doesn't help your GOAT argument in anyway.

My argument summarized: "A true GOAT will easily be the best player in any given situation, even when his team is losing."
My evidence: At least 20 players who were arguably better (based on ratings) than Messi while their team was being eliminated from the WC. Messi's 3.9 rating by BBC is almost comical, since you rarely see ratings that low.

 

[RedDevil@84]

My argument summarized: "A true GOAT will easily be the best player in any given situation, even when his team is losing."
My evidence: At least 20 players who were arguably better (based on ratings) than Messi while their team was being eliminated from the WC. Messi's 3.9 rating by BBC is almost comical, since you rarely see ratings that low.

So by your argument it means all the people better than Messi have never had a bad tournament in life or have never had a bad match in which their performance did not help team. I think that is an extreme view.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Ji_Maria show me the Barca games you went to please.

 

[Ji_Maria]

So by your argument it means all the people better than Messi have never had a bad tournament in life or have never had a bad match in which their performance did not help team. I think that is an extreme view.

When discussing GOAT, I think we need extreme views. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho and Maradona have won World Cups, and have won other international honors with their club teams, so they are in the clear.

Take a player like James Rodriguez in 2014. Even though his Colombian team was eliminated, he was easily one of the best players of that World Cup. You can never say that about Messi at any of his four World Cups. That is damning.

 

[Mickfoley]

@Ji_Maria

You must have taken pics at the nou camp. Show me.

Completely ignored by @Ji_Maria.

 

[Ji_Maria]

@Ji_Maria show me the Barca games you went to please.

First off, it would be extremely easy for me to just "steal" pictures from Instagram of any number of league/CL/WC games so not sure what your childish request is trying to prove.

Second, please post substantive rebuttals. Thanks in advance.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Completely ignored by @Ji_Maria.

I've never been to the Nou Camp. I watched Barca play in the CL several times. I've also been to 4 World Cups. I will dig through my computer and post a picture of myself at a Barca game if you agree that you will deregister your account upon my doing so. I'm not a Chelsea fan but the last time I saw Barca was CL at Stamford Bridge a few years back when I was still living in London. Put up or shut up.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Barcelona would be nowhere near the La Liga title if they didn't have Messi

So this argument is invalid.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

The old “Messi was only good because Barcelona were good argument” would actually have some merit if it wasn’t to obvious when watching them play that Messi was by quite some distance their best player in almost every game for about 3 years straight. The fact that he stood out so much amidst the undoubted talent is impressive in its self.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

First off, it would be extremely easy for me to just "steal" pictures from Instagram of any number of league/CL/WC games so not sure what your childish request is trying to prove.

Second, please post substantive rebuttals. Thanks in advance.

I’ll just use a very simple tool that will determine if your pic is original or comes from somewhere else on the web.

 

[Ji_Maria]

Barcelona would be nowhere near the La Liga title if they didn't have Messi

So this argument is invalid.

I really think EA Sports and FIFA and global marketing has brainwashed the football fans. Real Madrid did just fine when CR7 was out with injury, and same with Barca.

https://www.sport-english.com/en/ne...hen-made-to-live-without-lionel-messi-5402063

Since the 2006-07 season, he's missed a total of 96 games. The majority of them have been through injury and, on other occasions, through rotation -- usually in games where there's little at play or in the early rounds of the cup. With Messi, Barcelona have a 70 per cent win ratio, 19 per cent draw ratio and an 11 per cent defeat ratio. As for goals, the average is 2.65 scored and 0.8 conceded.

Without him, the numbers are worse, but not by much. Without Leo, the Blaugrana have won 66 per cent of their games, which is just four per cent less. The per cent of draws in 21 per cent and defeats comes in at 13 per cent.

 

[Ji_Maria]

I’ll just use a very simple tool that will determine if your pic is original or comes from somewhere else on the web.

That's fine. If we can get an Admin/Mod to agree to perma BAN your IP upon me posting a picture that will out myself, I will post the picture. Otherwise, don't be ridiculous in asking people to post pictures of themselves. That's uncalled for on the internet where there are legitimate privacy concerns.

 

[De Portago]

I really think EA Sports and FIFA and global marketing has brainwashed the football fans. Real Madrid did just fine when CR7 was out with injury, and same with Barca.

https://www.sport-english.com/en/ne...hen-made-to-live-without-lionel-messi-5402063

Since the 2006-07 season, he's missed a total of 96 games. The majority of them have been through injury and, on other occasions, through rotation -- usually in games where there's little at play or in the early rounds of the cup. With Messi, Barcelona have a 70 per cent win ratio, 19 per cent draw ratio and an 11 per cent defeat ratio. As for goals, the average is 2.65 scored and 0.8 conceded.

Without him, the numbers are worse, but not by much. Without Leo, the Blaugrana have won 66 per cent of their games, which is just four per cent less. The per cent of draws in 21 per cent and defeats comes in at 13 per cent.

Do you watch Barcelona and Madrid weekly?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I really think EA Sports and FIFA and global marketing has brainwashed the football fans. Real Madrid did just fine when CR7 was out with injury, and same with Barca.

https://www.sport-english.com/en/ne...hen-made-to-live-without-lionel-messi-5402063

Since the 2006-07 season, he's missed a total of 96 games. The majority of them have been through injury and, on other occasions, through rotation -- usually in games where there's little at play or in the early rounds of the cup. With Messi, Barcelona have a 70 per cent win ratio, 19 per cent draw ratio and an 11 per cent defeat ratio. As for goals, the average is 2.65 scored and 0.8 conceded.

Without him, the numbers are worse, but not by much. Without Leo, the Blaugrana have won 66 per cent of their games, which is just four per cent less. The per cent of draws in 21 per cent and defeats comes in at 13 per cent.

You're talking complete and utter nonsense. The hell does EA sports have to do with this? They rate Ronaldo higher than Messi in their games and Ronaldo is their cover athlete...

Take Messi out of Barcelona this past season.

Would they win the league?

If you honestly think so, there's no point continuing this.

You only need to watch them to realize how much they depend on him.

We going to use the World Cup as the only barometer now?

1 poor WC doesn't invalidate 10 years or so of world class seasons. Not even world class seasons, other worldly seasons.

 

[Carolina Red]

The state of this thread...

 

[Ji_Maria]

Do you watch Barcelona and Madrid weekly?

I used to watch weekly (and then some) during the 2000s. I started losing interest when the Messi/Iniesta/Xavi train was running and thereafter only catch games against legitimate opponents.

 

[Ji_Maria]

You're talking complete and utter nonsense. The hell does EA sports have to do with this? They rate Ronaldo higher than Messi in their games and Ronaldo is their cover athlete...

Take Messi out of Barcelona this past season.

Would they win the league?

If you honestly think so, there's no point continuing this.

You only need to watch them to realize how much they depend on him.

We going to use the World Cup as the only barometer now?

1 poor WC doesn't invalidate 10 years or so of world class seasons. Not even world class seasons, other worldly seasons.

I just posted data showing that Barca's win-rate without Messi is very similar to when Messi is playing...and it's not 1 poor WC...it's 4 poor WCs. Four....not sure why you're saying one. I honestly think Barca would have steamrolled La Liga and the CL from 2008-2012 if you replaced Messi with current Neymar.

 

[Ji_Maria]

The state of this thread...

Two different posters started asking me to post pictures of myself at games...I think that was a very unreasonable ask given that outting/doxxing is a legitimate concern so I'm obviously hesitant to do so.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I just posted data showing that Barca's win-rate without Messi is very similar to when Messi is playing...and it's not 1 poor WC...it's 4 poor WCs. Four....not sure why you're saying one.

Messi barely played in 2006.

You've invalidated your entire argument again.

Messi wasn't poor in 2010 or 2014 either.

 

[De Portago]

I used to watch weekly (and then some) during the 2000s. I started losing interest when the Messi/Iniesta/Xavi train was running and thereafter only catch games against legitimate opponents.

Fair enough, but then it seems fairly pointless for you to claim that Barcelona doesn't miss him when he's not playing. Looking at it statistically is futile, when you watch the games week in week out it's daylight clear that he's their main playmaker in the final third, and still by far the best goalscorer while playing deeper than he used to.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Looking good @Ji_Maria

 

[Ji_Maria]

Fair enough, but then it seems fairly pointless for you to claim that Barcelona doesn't miss him when he's not playing. Looking at it statistically is futile, when you watch the games week in week out it's daylight clear that he's their main playmaker in the final third, and still by far the best goalscorer while playing deeper than he used to.

Right, I'm not saying Barca would be the same if you just took Messi out, obviously he is an integral part of the team. I'm saying, Barca would probably look very similar if you replaced Messi with any certain other similar world class players.

But this is not to be confused with a statement that Messi isn't a contributing factor on Barca. In fact, I've said it many times before, Messi is clearly the best player on Barca and probably the entire world at this time. That is however a different statement to saying "GOAT."