Why organizing the defence will be the make or break for Solskjaer

andersj

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While it might sound like the same culprit that gave us the negative football we have experienced under the leadership of our previous managers, Solskjaer can not afford to neglect the amount of goals we concede. It is also worth remembering that while Ferguson will be remembered as an attacking and proactive coach by most fans, and certainly Solskjaers own admission, he put great emphasis on being able to defend well. In my opinion, this is a trait other attacking and proactive coaches share with Ferguson.

Bringing in a quality centreback will be crucial. But even a high quality centreback would struggle to look good in the defence we have seen this season. It is worth noting that Klopp was able to improve the Liverpool defence quite a bit even before adding van Dijk to his team. And most of the player he had at his disposal was considered really poor during Rodgers time at the club. The same was the case at Tottenham for Pochettino. Toby Alderweireld played a big part in improving the defence, but more importantly they defend better as a team. Players that are limited look good, players that are good look great and players that are great sometimes look world class (Toby?!).

There is a few examples of quality defenders struggeling in poor teams. One, in my opinion, was when Vidic went to Inter. By all means, age probably caught up with him, but he struggled alot in Inter. And I always felt it was mostly due to a poorly organized defence and team. We have seen a similar example in Real Madrid where good defenders have looked poor due to system. I did not watch much Serie A last year, but maybe this was the case with Bonucci at Milan?

We probably where a good organized team without the ball during Mourinhos time here, but without good enough players. Mourinho spent a significant amount but failed to improve significantly on Jones and Smalling. To top it all of, he probably sold one of our better defenders in Blind.

Another area where Jose Mourinho failed was structure when we where in possession. In my opinion, this is one of the big changes in football the past decade (and its a natural evolution if you think about it); you need to create a structure for how to play out from the back.

Coaches like Benitez and Mourinho became very successfull due to modernising some of the Sacchi-principle. Their teams where so well-organized and good at putting pressure on the opponents as a team. In Germany, they took it further and decided to put the pressure on the players with the biggest weakness on the ball, the defenders, and at the same time in the area of the pitch where it would be to their biggest advantage winning the ball back.

As a result, it became crucial for teams to have defenders that where good on the ball. Furthermore, the best teams teams developed a certain structure to support the defenders on how to cope with the pressure. A safety net. Obviously, players like Jones and Smalling have a bigger need for this type of safety net than Rio or Vidic.

You dont have to be a smart player to be a fullback at Spurs. You just have to move in accordance with the instruction. As a centreback, you pass the ball to the fullback who went wide immediately when your team won the ball. Unless the opponent do something stupid and tries to take out the fullback. Then there will be room through the middle, and he will be able to pass through the lines with ease. The fullback will usually have more passing options out wide, higher up the field. I dont think its brilliant and its quide rigid. But up until the final third, it guides players on where to move and where to pass (hence, it actually also makes it easier to run). After a year with Young at fullback, it is easy to envy this type of system.

I think this is a part of the game that surpassed Mourinho, but it is a part of the philosophy of the best young coaches of this decade (Pochettino, Klopp, Conte, Emery etc). I can’t remember that it were a part of Klopps Dortmund, but he has certainly adopted it with Liverpool. Like Ferguson, he seems to be able to adjust. Please dont get me wrong, I’m not saying this is something new. I’m saying that it became a lot more important as teams became better at pressing.

I love Solskjaer, but I’m worried about this part of the game for a number of reasons:

- OGS has been gone from this level of football for the entire decade and there had been a significant development since he left.
- Molde conceded so many goals during his time there.
- Very few teams in Scandinavia are able to build from the back. I did not watch much of Molde in his last period, but I watched some in his first. They where fine in the last third, but there buildup play was average. Even by Eliteserien-standard.
- OGS likes to attack and he likes to attack fast. Bless him! But the modern game needs a bit of patience as well. You will not be able to attack on the counter all of the time as a top team. And if you try, you will run your players to the ground.

If any of you feels that this sounds a bit far fetched, I would recommend you to watch a game in Eliteserien or when a norwegian team plays in the Europe League (you will have to hurry, because they will probably be eliminated in july). I’m sure that the first thing you will notice is the (lack of) build-up play.

My hope is that McKenna or Carrick can help him on this part of the game. Hopefully, it will also be easier to implement a better structure with better players than what he used to have at Molde.

To build from the back is an old cliche that holds so much truth to it. Its the foundation of a team and in the PL you will struggle to win without it. In fact, you will struggle to make top 6 without it. Solskjaer is smart. I’m sure he will adapt somehow. It will be interesting to see how.
 
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Rhyme Animal

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A new, top quality right back and 2 CBs (with 1 being absolutely top quality) are needed immediately in my opinion.

Young is absolutely nowhere the quality needed, and none of the CBs are nailed on as good enough thus far.

Very surprised January didn't bring at least 1 of these, as clubs (including Utd) have signed players between managers.

Obviously I'm on record as being very skeptical about Solskjaer as a Utd manager, and some of that does come directly from the clueless defending we're seeing under him, and also the new contracts for Jones and Young - as well as making Young captain and playing him continuously.

I simply do not understand why the above is happening, and it's happened under Ole's watch.

But yeah, the defense must be built before anything else, and at least 3 new defenders (right back, 2 centre-backs) must be acquired in the Summer, and will need to slot straight into the team, as can be done - as Klopp did with VVD and Alisson this season.
 

Markus3

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IMO we need a world class CB, Wan Bissaka as a right back, Bring Tuzanabe back from Aston Villa.

I think that Bailly deserves a chance to prove himself injuries and Mourinho haven’t helped over the last 2 years. We also need a full back who can play on either flank.

Need to get rid of Jones & Smalling they have proved time and time again they are not good footballers and Rojo should have been gone a long time ago, hopefully between the three of them we should be able to get at least 40 million
 
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rpitchfo

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I love reading quotes from Ferdinand about SAF approach to defending.

Essentially, as a centre back you were expected to be able to defend 1 vs 1 without the need for cover. Everyone else was expected to attack and try and get back while the centre backs held up or nullified the attack.

Our centre backs cannot be trusted at the moment without covering each other or having the support of the full backs to back them up. It means we defend deep and in numbers.
 

Roboc7

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Realistically he can only sign so many players, should prioritise two fullbacks. Our centre backs aren’t great but good enough to get us top four next season. Our fullbacks other than Shaw are absolute dross, with exception of Dalot as a rotation/backup.

Two good fullbacks would make us better defensively and help us going forward as
we are really poor in wide areas particularly on the right.
 

red4ever 79

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Need a LB, RB and CB minimum. Need to offload Jones, Rojo, Darmian, Young and Valencia

RB New, Dalot
LB Shaw?
CB New, Lindelof, Smalling Bailly, Tuanzebe
 
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The only CBs we should be keeping are Lindolf, Bailly and Tunazebe. Jones and Smalling have had 10 years to prove their quality and they haven't. We need to move them on, Rojo is another one that should have been sold at least 2 seasons ago.
 

Gator Nate

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Gotta get a backup for Shaw, he'll miss a few games for suspensions. And I'd ship Bailly out post haste.
 

izec

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The only CBs we should be keeping are Lindolf, Bailly and Tunazebe. Jones and Smalling have had 10 years to prove their quality and they haven't. We need to move them on, Rojo is another one that should have been sold at least 2 seasons ago.
Bailly should be going too. He is on the level of Rojo currently, absolute liability. Except for his first season, it is going downhill. I dont see any signs of improvement, unless you only hope he can improve.
 
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Bailly should be going too. He is on the level of Rojo currently, absolute liability. Except for his first season, it is going downhill. I dont see any signs of improvement, unless you only hope he can improve.
He has time on his side, he was very good in his first season I would allow him another season to regain form. I don't have patience for the others who have been here 5+ seasons.
 

Drz

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I think the big challenge will be adopting a style of play that allows us to carve teams open in possession (I feel this has been an underlying problem dating back to Fergie's last few years). A big hurdle to that is speed of passing and cohesion as an attacking unit too. Of course with that outlook the defensive setup has to be right if we want to dominate the opposition in their half/final third or we will be vulnerable to every counter.
Of course, we can always choose to be pragmatic in games where we are clear underdogs and go for counter-attacking ourselves, but I feel it is easier to defend in numbers than it is to defend by occupying the right space and with intelligence, so if we achieve the more difficult setup of efficiently high up the pitch it should also have a knock-on effect on when we defend in numbers when we choose to counter.
Or maybe its all just gibberish in my mind...
 

Andycoleno9

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He gave new contract to Jones and said that Rojo "is in his plans". Not a good start imo
 
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He gave new contract to Jones and said that Rojo "is in his plans". Not a good start imo
With games to go, you don't throw players under the bus (in ref to Rojo) - everyone knows he needs to go, but actually finding anyone to take him will be difficult.

If we are stuck with him, it's better not to have a demoralised player.

Fergie said Veron was in his plans and had a great pre-season. Two weeks later he was at Chelsea.

We all know that you have to take a large pinch of salt with anything a manager says.
 

Class of 63

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IMO we need a world class CB, Wan Bissaka as a right back, Bring Tuzanabe back from Aston Villa.

I think that Bailly deserves a chance to prove himself injuries and Mourinho haven’t helped over the last 2 years. We also need a full back who can play on either flank.

Need to get rid of Jones & Smalling they have proved time and time again they are not good footballers and Rojo should have been gone a long time ago, hopefully between the three of them we should be able to get at least 40 million
And yet 5(five)* Manchester United and numerous England Managers regularly play/played them when they are/were fit, wtf is that about?

* 6(six) if you include Rhodri's brother
 

SirAF

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While it might sound like the same culprit that gave us the negative football we have experienced under the leadership of our previous managers, Solskjaer can not afford to neglect the amount of goals we concede. It is also worth remembering that while Ferguson will be remembered as an attacking and proactive coach by most fans, and certainly Solskjaers own admission, he put great emphasis on being able to defend well. In my opinion, this is a trait other attacking and proactive coaches share with Ferguson.

Bringing in a quality centreback will be crucial. But even a high quality centreback would struggle to look good in the defence we have seen this season. It is worth noting that Klopp was able to improve the Liverpool defence quite a bit even before adding van Dijk to his team. And most of the player he had at his disposal was considered really poor during Rodgers time at the club. The same was the case at Tottenham for Pochettino. Toby Alderweireld played a big part in improving the defence, but more importantly they defend better as a team. Players that are limited look good, players that are good look great and players that are great sometimes look world class (Toby?!).

There is a few examples of quality defenders struggeling in poor teams. One, in my opinion, was when Vidic went to Inter. By all means, age probably caught up with him, but he struggled alot in Inter. And I always felt it was mostly due to a poorly organized defence and team. We have seen a similar example in Real Madrid where good defenders have looked poor due to system. I did not watch much Serie A last year, but maybe this was the case with Bonucci at Milan?

We probably where a good organized team without the ball during Mourinhos time here, but without good enough players. Mourinho spent a significant amount but failed to improve significantly on Jones and Smalling. To top it all of, he probably sold one of our better defenders in Blind.

Another area where Jose Mourinho failed was structure when we where in possession. In my opinion, this is one of the big changes in football the past decade (and its a natural evolution if you think about it); you need to create a structure for how to play out from the back.

Coaches like Benitez and Mourinho became very successfull due to modernising some of the Sacchi-principle. Their teams where so well-organized and good at putting pressure on the opponents as a team. In Germany, they took it further and decided to put the pressure on the players with the biggest weakness on the ball, the defenders, and at the same time in the area of the pitch where it would be to their biggest advantage winning the ball back.

As a result, it became crucial for teams to have defenders that where good on the ball. Furthermore, the best teams teams developed a certain structure to support the defenders on how to cope with the pressure. A safety net. Obviously, players like Jones and Smalling have a bigger need for this type of safety net than Rio or Vidic.

You dont have to be a smart player to be a fullback at Spurs. You just have to move in accordance with the instruction. As a centreback, you pass the ball to the fullback who went wide immediately when your team won the ball. Unless the opponent do something stupid and tries to take out the fullback. Then there will be room through the middle, and he will be able to pass through the lines with ease. The fullback will usually have more passing options out wide, higher up the field. I dont think its brilliant and its quide rigid. But up until the final third, it guides players on where to move and where to pass (hence, it actually also makes it easier to run). After a year with Young at fullback, it is easy to envy this type of system.

I think this is a part of the game that surpassed Mourinho, but it is a part of the philosophy of the best young coaches of this decade (Pochettino, Klopp, Conte, Emery etc). I can’t remember that it were a part of Klopps Dortmund, but he has certainly adopted it with Liverpool. Like Ferguson, he seems to be able to adjust. Please dont get me wrong, I’m not saying this is something new. I’m saying that it became a lot more important as teams became better at pressing.

I love Solskjaer, but I’m worried about this part of the game for a number of reasons:

- OGS has been gone from this level of football for the entire decade and there had been a significant development since he left.
- Molde conceded so many goals during his time there.
- Very few teams in Scandinavia are able to build from the back. I did not watch much of Molde in his last period, but I watched some in his first. They where fine in the last third, but there buildup play was average. Even by Eliteserien-standard.
- OGS likes to attack and he likes to attack fast. Bless him! But the modern game needs a bit of patience as well. You will not be able to attack on the counter all of the time as a top team. And if you try, you will run your players to the ground.

If any of you feels that this sounds a bit far fetched, I would recommend you to watch a game in Eliteserien or when a norwegian team plays in the Europe League (you will have to hurry, because they will probably be eliminated in july). I’m sure that the first thing you will notice is the (lack of) build-up play.

My hope is that McKenna or Carrick can help him on this part of the game. Hopefully, it will also be easier to implement a better structure with better players than what he used to have at Molde.

To build from the back is an old cliche that holds so much truth to it. Its the foundation of a team and in the PL you will struggle to win without it. In fact, you will struggle to make top 6 without it. Solskjaer is smart. I’m sure he will adapt somehow. It will be interesting to see how.
:lol:

I agree with the gist of your post though. Well said.
 

fps

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And yet 5(five)* Manchester United and numerous England Managers regularly play/played them when they are/were fit, wtf is that about?

* 6(six) if you include Rhodri's brother
Unfortunately, and I really don't mean this to sound as harsh as it does, they're losers. I don't know what it is in their player/ character makeup, but while they seem decent for stats and they must be doing something good in training to be picked, they're just not winners, they always seem to make a mistake or be on the end of some hard luck goal concession.

It also creates another problem - I don't think Man Utd's attackers are coming up against good enough centre halves in training, and that's affecting their attacking play.
 

Class of 63

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Unfortunately, and I really don't mean this to sound as harsh as it does, they're losers. I don't know what it is in their player/ character makeup, but while they seem decent for stats and they must be doing something good in training to be picked, they're just not winners, they always seem to make a mistake or be on the end of some hard luck goal concession.

It also creates another problem - I don't think Man Utd's attackers are coming up against good enough centre halves in training, and that's affecting their attacking play.
They don't have to be guaranteed starters but their experience of being Title winners will be invaluable when and if we get back to that level again.
 

Ixion

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Conceded more goals so far than any other United side in the Premier League era and the season is still going, and some of those other teams were very cavalier and didn't give much thought to the defense. Absolute shambles, as soon as we came out of the summer transfer window without a new CB the writing was on the wall for this season. It's the main thing Ole needs to focus on, we have one of the best keepers in the world, put some decent defenders in front of him.
 

ASL

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Toby Alderweireld, Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Kieran Tierney please. All attainable at relatively sensible prices. All better than what we have already.
 

Mcking

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Conceded more goals so far than any other United side in the Premier League era and the season is still going, and some of those other teams were very cavalier and didn't give much thought to the defense. Absolute shambles, as soon as we came out of the summer transfer window without a new CB the writing was on the wall for this season. It's the main thing Ole needs to focus on, we have one of the best keepers in the world, put some decent defenders in front of him.
Decent defenders would look worse playing in front of a goalkeeper that is reluctant to command his box and offers next to no help to his defenders.
 

M Utd

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Bailly should be going too. He is on the level of Rojo currently, absolute liability. Except for his first season, it is going downhill. I dont see any signs of improvement, unless you only hope he can improve.
Bailly played his best football when he was paired with Blind who effectively coached him through games.
We actually could do with a older head at the back to support the current and younger players coming through. I wonder if defensive coaching addition might help too. That being said MP is supposedly very sound defensively. I guess organising a defence will need some time and new personnel.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Quite the opposite.

I feel sorting out our defence is an easy problem to fix - by adding a few good players. It still has to be done but it wouldn't require a groundbreaking effort.

It's the fluidity, cohesion and potency with which we attack, and generally display on the ball, which is, by far, IMO the biggest hurdle. Getting us to play with the fluidity that City and Liverpool have achieved - that challenge is something we have struggled with for years, and what will ultimately define Ole as a success or otherwise.
 

SER19

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Agree completely.

However bad we've been this season, if we had hypothetically started the campaign with Alderweireld and Koulibaly at the heart of defence we would be at least 10 points better off despite how rancid the football was. Would the 130m needed to get them seem foolishly spent by now? We need to buy the best centre halves and right back we possibly can, and go from there.
 

Foxbatt

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We need to get Carlos Quiroz back as assistant. He sort out our defence before and though he may have not been successful as a manager saf said he was the closest to be a manager at United.
 

devilish

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Defences, no matter how solid they are, will crack under pressure. I think our biggest issue is the lack of work rate in the team. Sure people like Pogba should be doing better on that regard but they bring assists and goals to the table. The real issue here is nice guys, who are supposed to be hardworking and trying hard for the team when time and time again they do jack shit. I mean, if the likes of Young, Matic, Lingard, Jones, Smalling and co cannot run and win the ball then why the heck are we paying them for? Surely not to create chances.

Id say lets get rid of these players, lets bring guys like Ndidi and we'll work ourselves up in that way.
 

Bestietom

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While it might sound like the same culprit that gave us the negative football we have experienced under the leadership of our previous managers, Solskjaer can not afford to neglect the amount of goals we concede. It is also worth remembering that while Ferguson will be remembered as an attacking and proactive coach by most fans, and certainly Solskjaers own admission, he put great emphasis on being able to defend well. In my opinion, this is a trait other attacking and proactive coaches share with Ferguson.

Bringing in a quality centreback will be crucial. But even a high quality centreback would struggle to look good in the defence we have seen this season. It is worth noting that Klopp was able to improve the Liverpool defence quite a bit even before adding van Dijk to his team. And most of the player he had at his disposal was considered really poor during Rodgers time at the club. The same was the case at Tottenham for Pochettino. Toby Alderweireld played a big part in improving the defence, but more importantly they defend better as a team. Players that are limited look good, players that are good look great and players that are great sometimes look world class (Toby?!).

There is a few examples of quality defenders struggeling in poor teams. One, in my opinion, was when Vidic went to Inter. By all means, age probably caught up with him, but he struggled alot in Inter. And I always felt it was mostly due to a poorly organized defence and team. We have seen a similar example in Real Madrid where good defenders have looked poor due to system. I did not watch much Serie A last year, but maybe this was the case with Bonucci at Milan?

We probably where a good organized team without the ball during Mourinhos time here, but without good enough players. Mourinho spent a significant amount but failed to improve significantly on Jones and Smalling. To top it all of, he probably sold one of our better defenders in Blind.

Another area where Jose Mourinho failed was structure when we where in possession. In my opinion, this is one of the big changes in football the past decade (and its a natural evolution if you think about it); you need to create a structure for how to play out from the back.

Coaches like Benitez and Mourinho became very successfull due to modernising some of the Sacchi-principle. Their teams where so well-organized and good at putting pressure on the opponents as a team. In Germany, they took it further and decided to put the pressure on the players with the biggest weakness on the ball, the defenders, and at the same time in the area of the pitch where it would be to their biggest advantage winning the ball back.

As a result, it became crucial for teams to have defenders that where good on the ball. Furthermore, the best teams teams developed a certain structure to support the defenders on how to cope with the pressure. A safety net. Obviously, players like Jones and Smalling have a bigger need for this type of safety net than Rio or Vidic.

You dont have to be a smart player to be a fullback at Spurs. You just have to move in accordance with the instruction. As a centreback, you pass the ball to the fullback who went wide immediately when your team won the ball. Unless the opponent do something stupid and tries to take out the fullback. Then there will be room through the middle, and he will be able to pass through the lines with ease. The fullback will usually have more passing options out wide, higher up the field. I dont think its brilliant and its quide rigid. But up until the final third, it guides players on where to move and where to pass (hence, it actually also makes it easier to run). After a year with Young at fullback, it is easy to envy this type of system.

I think this is a part of the game that surpassed Mourinho, but it is a part of the philosophy of the best young coaches of this decade (Pochettino, Klopp, Conte, Emery etc). I can’t remember that it were a part of Klopps Dortmund, but he has certainly adopted it with Liverpool. Like Ferguson, he seems to be able to adjust. Please dont get me wrong, I’m not saying this is something new. I’m saying that it became a lot more important as teams became better at pressing.

I love Solskjaer, but I’m worried about this part of the game for a number of reasons:

- OGS has been gone from this level of football for the entire decade and there had been a significant development since he left.
- Molde conceded so many goals during his time there.
- Very few teams in Scandinavia are able to build from the back. I did not watch much of Molde in his last period, but I watched some in his first. They where fine in the last third, but there buildup play was average. Even by Eliteserien-standard.
- OGS likes to attack and he likes to attack fast. Bless him! But the modern game needs a bit of patience as well. You will not be able to attack on the counter all of the time as a top team. And if you try, you will run your players to the ground.

If any of you feels that this sounds a bit far fetched, I would recommend you to watch a game in Eliteserien or when a norwegian team plays in the Europe League (you will have to hurry, because they will probably be eliminated in july). I’m sure that the first thing you will notice is the (lack of) build-up play.

My hope is that McKenna or Carrick can help him on this part of the game. Hopefully, it will also be easier to implement a better structure with better players than what he used to have at Molde.

To build from the back is an old cliche that holds so much truth to it. Its the foundation of a team and in the PL you will struggle to win without it. In fact, you will struggle to make top 6 without it. Solskjaer is smart. I’m sure he will adapt somehow. It will be interesting to see how.
To seriously improve our backline we need 2 CB's and a RB. An experienced leader with a young up and coming CB. ( Manolas, and Milenkovic, would be my choices) My RB choice would be Wan Bissaka or Meunier.

Then we need 2 top midfielder warriors in front of them, who can control the game. (Ndombele, and Partey, would be my choices)
 

Oyibo

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Mou had "sorted out the defense", to the point we had one of the best around last season.

But that wasnt enough for Mou, so why should be enough for Ole ? Its not as if our attack is all singing an dancing
 

JPRouve

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Mou had "sorted out the defense", to the point we had one of the best around last season.

But that wasnt enough for Mou, so why should be enough for Ole ? Its not as if our attack is all singing an dancing
He didn't sort out the defense, we were conceding chances and shots at a relatively high rate while De Gea had an impressive saves/goal ratio. The crazy thing is that De Gea made 85 saves in 2016/2017 and 113 saves in 2017/2018.
 

andersj

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He didn't sort out the defense, we were conceding chances and shots at a relatively high rate while De Gea had an impressive saves/goal ratio. The crazy thing is that De Gea made 85 saves in 2016/2017 and 113 saves in 2017/2018.
This! If you think it was sorted you must ignore that he relied on a goalkeeper over-achieving. But I think he was just one world class CB away from having it sorted. But our buildup was not even close to being sorted.