Why the reluctance to sign a defensive midfielder?

[bond19821982]

If we don't want people to over-emphasize a bad performance to diminish a player, we shouldn't use a good one to do the opposite. Casemiro has been decent to good for us, yesterday he was really good, lets hope it continues. But your conclusion to downplay certain players is weak in my eyes. Midfield is about composition, put Bissouma next to a capable midfield partnership and he will be fine. Same for Ndidi. Put them in a badly balanced midfield and their weaknesses will look even worse. Lets hope that Casemiro isn't going to have the same trajectory that Matic had. We payed a lot of money for him even though he was already replaced by Real Madrid.

I am happy he is here but nobody can tell if a Bissouma could have played a good role for us as well, until lately it has been Eriksen, who really upped the teams level. And yesterday was a fantastic team effort, lets hope we can hold that level and this isn't another flash in the pan.

Ndidi is shit. No two ways about it. Had huge potential couple of seasons ago and that's it. Agree with Bissouma though and is too early. But again, he won't get into our 11 today.

 

[roonster09]

Yeah but my point is/was that the club were lambasted at the time for not signing Bissouma when he went to Spurs. There are also pages and pages on this forum of fans screaming for Neves and Ndidi. Yet I never see any of those people pop-up and apologise/acknowledge when they get it wrong - which is frequently!

My point is also, and I have said this all along, that Bissouma is not good enough. I don't need to watch him play 50 times to see the 'red flags'. The game we played against Brighton last season was enough for me, he looked clumsy and awkward on the ball several times to the point where it's not a 'bad game' it's that his fundamentals are not sound enough to be a world-class player.

And therein lies the point...when I say 'not good enough'...the full sentence is 'Bissouma is a very good player...but he's not good enough for the level we should aspire too'.

That's the key point, and neither are Ndidi, McGinn or Neves, which means it is actually quite hard for a club like United to find the right quality in the centre of the pitch. It's not as easy as some think

Good post, IMO Bissouma is good CM, he is more of a ball carrier but Casemiro is a full package. His positioning and defensive awareness is arguably the best in the world, his passing with both feet is very good and he has mean shot from distance. Passing, goal threat is not something that Bissouma can offer and also he is good tackler but Casemiro is superior in every possible way when it comes to defensive situations. He can sense danger like he is from future and knows what's the move.

 

[Borys]

The question is whether it was worth not adressing the midfield for a long long time becaue we couldn't get "world class" player. Personally I think we neglected it for far too long, what started under SAF ("no value in the market") and continued until Ten Hag brought Casemiro and Eriksen.

I am of the opinion you can't build a team without a midfield core, you can't provide the base for the attackers. This is the reason we have been so reliant on moments of magic in previous years. We really nedeed a DM to settle our midfield and give others more freedom.

 

[Ekeke]

Yeah but my point is/was that the club were lambasted at the time for not signing Bissouma when he went to Spurs. There are also pages and pages on this forum of fans screaming for Neves and Ndidi. Yet I never see any of those people pop-up and apologise/acknowledge when they get it wrong - which is frequently!

My point is also, and I have said this all along, that Bissouma is not good enough. I don't need to watch him play 50 times to see the 'red flags'. The game we played against Brighton last season was enough for me, he looked clumsy and awkward on the ball several times to the point where it's not a 'bad game' it's that his fundamentals are not sound enough to be a world-class player.

And therein lies the point...when I say 'not good enough'...the full sentence is 'Bissouma is a very good player...but he's not good enough for the level we should aspire too'.

That's the key point, and neither are Ndidi, McGinn or Neves, which means it is actually quite hard for a club like United to find the right quality in the centre of the pitch. It's not as easy as some think

Its not that hard when you're willing to spend £70 million on a player. And more importantly, yes we signed a top class DM from Real Madrid but we didnt need to do that in order to improve on McTom and Fred. Thats what people wanted. Not going from a 6/10 to a 9/10 but just a 7 or 7.5/10 to help instead of hindering the rest of the team. So yes after years and years we eventually signed someone on the top of his game for a lot of money from Real Madrid. It took years of waiting and dross in the meantime. Oppertunity cost.

We could say the same thing about a striker now. How about we hang around till Haaland is 29 in 7 years and has had plenty of time in Spain and maybe he's available. Why sign better than we have during that time and improve, when we might get lucky and a top player becomes available in several years?

Also why was he available in the first place? Because 2 players who were hyped up from France, and were linked with us, were brought in and Madrid felt they could move on without him. That taking the money was the better deal and securing things for the future. We got 2nd place in that series of events if Madrid are correct and continue to be successful. Because they didnt wait for a 29 year old to become available, they signed young up and coming players they believe in.

 

[Lentwood]

Its not that hard when you're willing to spend £70 million on a player. And more importantly, yes we signed a top class DM from Real Madrid but we didnt need to do that in order to improve on McTom and Fred. Thats what people wanted. Not going from a 6/10 to a 9/10 but just a 7 or 7.5/10 to help instead of hindering the rest of the team. So yes after years and years we eventually signed someone on the top of his game for a lot of money from Real Madrid. It took years of waiting and dross in the meantime. Oppertunity cost.

We could say the same thing about a striker now. How about we hang around till Haaland is 29 in 7 years and has had plenty of time in Spain and maybe he's available. Why sign better than we have during that time and improve, when we might get lucky and a top player becomes available in several years?

Also why was he available in the first place? Because 2 players who were hyped up from France, and were linked with us, were brought in and Madrid felt they could move on without him. That taking the money was the better deal and securing things for the future. We got 2nd place in that series of events if Madrid are correct and continue to be successful. Because they didnt wait for a 29 year old to become available, they signed young up and coming players they believe in.

Yeah but it's not a choice between 'do nothing for five years' or 'sign a world-class player' is it?

The point of my post is to highlight the (literally) hundreds of players this forum clamours for and hammers the club for not signing...only for that all to be quickly forgotten when they fade into mediocrity shortly afterwards.

Also to highlight the difficulty in identifying and signing top talent. Yes, we have recruited poorly but the answer is never to just start signing 7.5/10 players as you put it. That's what Tottenham do and what Liverpool did pre-Michael Edwards. See also...LvG and Morgan Schneiderlin

 

[Suedesi]

Good points @Lentwood

 

[Ekeke]

Yeah but it's not a choice between 'do nothing for five years' or 'sign a world-class player' is it?

The point of my post is to highlight the (literally) hundreds of players this forum clamours for and hammers the club for not signing...only for that all to be quickly forgotten when they fade into mediocrity shortly afterwards.

Also to highlight the difficulty in identifying and signing top talent. Yes, we have recruited poorly but the answer is never to just start signing 7.5/10 players as you put it. That's what Tottenham do and what Liverpool did pre-Michael Edwards. See also...LvG and Morgan Schneiderlin

So did you miss Ndidi playing very well for the previous 3 seasons, or Neves for the 2nd half of last season?

They were ones you mentioned and they absolutely havent been forgotten nor are they mediocre. Neves has still been quite good this season and Leicester in general have been poor.

And no, Liverpool did exactly that. If you're going to suggest that Robertson, Mane or Salah were considered above a 7.5/10 player when Liverpool signed them you're just a liar. VVD is the one player who would have been considerd, not by everyone but by plenty as a top CB and thats why he cost so much.

 

[Giggsy13]

The question is whether it was worth not adressing the midfield for a long long time becaue we couldn't get "world class" player. Personally I think we neglected it for far too long, what started under SAF ("no value in the market") and continued until Ten Hag brought Casemiro and Eriksen.

I am of the opinion you can't build a team without a midfield core, you can't provide the base for the attackers. This is the reason we have been so reliant on moments of magic in previous years. We really nedeed a DM to settle our midfield and give others more freedom.

I think buying the finished articles in Eriksen and Casemiro was the right approach. Both essentially come at a cost of £70 million plus wages and have instantly transformed our midfield and style of play. I think ten Hag ultimately sees bright futures for Mainoo, Iqbal and possibly Charlie savage that buying 30 year old proven world class talents made sense for the short-term.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Yeah but it's not a choice between 'do nothing for five years' or 'sign a world-class player' is it?

The point of my post is to highlight the (literally) hundreds of players this forum clamours for and hammers the club for not signing...only for that all to be quickly forgotten when they fade into mediocrity shortly afterwards.

Also to highlight the difficulty in identifying and signing top talent. Yes, we have recruited poorly but the answer is never to just start signing 7.5/10 players as you put it. That's what Tottenham do and what Liverpool did pre-Michael Edwards. See also...LvG and Morgan Schneiderlin

The Cafe for a while has had this love of ball winning midfielders because we've always "needed a DM", but I think the problem is the majority of these flavor of the month DM's from smaller clubs are meant to just be hard men in teams that aren't as ball dominant. So they aren't technically very good or don't offer much as passers, so when they make the step up to bigger sides they aren't as effective. Pep has had plenty of instances at City where he didn't even play with a DM, because it's not necessary if you have technical players that can also press correctly. The team structure wins the ball back instead of just relying on one player, and because you aren't wasting a spot on a ball winner you can have an extra top class player on the ball to help keep possession and create chances. Rodri is fantastic because he can do both similar to Casemiro, which is why they are two of the best in the world. Those are the types of profiles we should be aiming for in our "holding midfielder" positions though, instead of looking for some player that makes a ton of tackles and has great defensive stats but is a 0 in possession.

 

[NZT-One]

Yeah but my point is/was that the club were lambasted at the time for not signing Bissouma when he went to Spurs. There are also pages and pages on this forum of fans screaming for Neves and Ndidi. Yet I never see any of those people pop-up and apologise/acknowledge when they get it wrong - which is frequently!

My point is also, and I have said this all along, that Bissouma is not good enough. I don't need to watch him play 50 times to see the 'red flags'. The game we played against Brighton last season was enough for me, he looked clumsy and awkward on the ball several times to the point where it's not a 'bad game' it's that his fundamentals are not sound enough to be a world-class player.

And therein lies the point...when I say 'not good enough'...the full sentence is 'Bissouma is a very good player...but he's not good enough for the level we should aspire too'.

That's the key point, and neither are Ndidi, McGinn or Neves, which means it is actually quite hard for a club like United to find the right quality in the centre of the pitch. It's not as easy as some think

I think, you misunderstood some(!) of the wishes maybe. Because, in my perception, it very rarely was something like "Neves is soooo good" or "Bissouma is soooo good" - it was about "feck me our midfield is so dire, why aren't we bringing in somebody half decent" . And it wasn't just about missing quality, it was about missing quantity as well. I would agree with your statement if people were hyping up mediocre players only to trash the club with it. But I didn't feel that this was the case.

And to finish that, I agree again, it is difficult to find players with the right mind and quality to play for United. It is difficult and we missed many many things which could have made this difficult task a little easier for us. Principles make sense as long as you aren't getting screwed over by them. And I think, that was absolutely the case: for the last 10 years we mostly were operated and we played like a midtable team. We had to face reality and that should have meant that bringing in functional players that were better than existing ones or players who would have filled gaping holes in our squad would have been a better decision than trying to bring in big names deluding ourselves that only those would be able to elevate the "top club Manchester United".

The question is whether it was worth not adressing the midfield for a long long time becaue we couldn't get "world class" player. Personally I think we neglected it for far too long, what started under SAF ("no value in the market") and continued until Ten Hag brought Casemiro and Eriksen.

I am of the opinion you can't build a team without a midfield core, you can't provide the base for the attackers. This is the reason we have been so reliant on moments of magic in previous years. We really nedeed a DM to settle our midfield and give others more freedom.

Amen.

Yeah but it's not a choice between 'do nothing for five years' or 'sign a world-class player' is it?

The point of my post is to highlight the (literally) hundreds of players this forum clamours for and hammers the club for not signing...only for that all to be quickly forgotten when they fade into mediocrity shortly afterwards.

Also to highlight the difficulty in identifying and signing top talent. Yes, we have recruited poorly but the answer is never to just start signing 7.5/10 players as you put it. That's what Tottenham do and what Liverpool did pre-Michael Edwards. See also...LvG and Morgan Schneiderlin

At least about Liverpool, that isn't correct. What Liverpool did was moving to an approach where the fullbacks become the chance creators which "enabled" them to "get by" quite fine with having a more functional midfield. It isn't the same.

I think buying the finished articles in Eriksen and Casemiro was the right approach. Both essentially come at a cost of £70 million plus wages and have instantly transformed our midfield and style of play. I think ten Hag ultimately sees bright futures for Mainoo, Iqbal and possibly Charlie savage that buying 30 year old proven world class talents made sense for the short-term.

Thats plausible and a legit stance. I think though, it more what you wish to see than what you are seeing. None of the younglings even had a look in until now and you're calculation only sounds good because Eriksen came for free. Again, I am not saying you are wrong, only that there isn't a lot substantial backing it up.

 

[Borys]

I think buying the finished articles in Eriksen and Casemiro was the right approach. Both essentially come at a cost of £70 million plus wages and have instantly transformed our midfield and style of play. I think ten Hag ultimately sees bright futures for Mainoo, Iqbal and possibly Charlie savage that buying 30 year old proven world class talents made sense for the short-term.

It was the right approach for this window, I have no doubts about it. But what the hell was the plan for previous years - I cannot tell.
Definitely looks like we spent 10+ years waiting for the one...

 

[Lentwood]

And no, Liverpool did exactly that. If you're going to suggest that Robertson, Mane or Salah were considered above a 7.5/10 player when Liverpool signed them you're just a liar. VVD is the one player who would have been considerd, not by everyone but by plenty as a top CB and thats why he cost so much.

No, you misunderstand the point - you said something along the lines of needing 7.5/10 players to do a job because our midfield was so poor.

My counter to that was that the "any half-decent PL performer will do" was what Spurs (still) do and what Liverpool used to do in time gone by.

That does not mean that you need to sign big names for big money. Robertson, Salah and Mane were signed by Liverpool because Michael Edwards is a genius, they scouted these players extensively and correctly identified they would become top players.

Again, my point is that they didn't just go "this lad will do a job for a bit"

That's the bit I am opposed to. Brian Clough famously said he never signed a player unless he genuinely believed they could become the best player in his side. That's slightly extreme in the modern 23-man squad days but I still don't mind it as a general rule

 

[Ekeke]

No, you misunderstand the point - you said something along the lines of needing 7.5/10 players to do a job because our midfield was so poor.

My counter to that was that the "any half-decent PL performer will do" was what Spurs (still) do and what Liverpool used to do in time gone by.

That does not mean that you need to sign big names for big money. Robertson, Salah and Mane were signed by Liverpool because Michael Edwards is a genius, they scouted these players extensively and correctly identified they would become top players.

Again, my point is that they didn't just go "this lad will do a job for a bit"

That's the bit I am opposed to. Brian Clough famously said he never signed a player unless he genuinely believed they could become the best player in his side. That's slightly extreme in the modern 23-man squad days but I still don't mind it as a general rule

Okay. Well I agree we shouldn't look for minimal improvements.

But when it comes to our midfield Ndidi on form in the past 3 seasons is a much better DM than we had and Neves is a better passer who has finally started playing to a level that deserves some of the hype he's had for the past 4 years or whatever. So those players in particular whilst not as good as Casemiro of course would have been valuable additions. And they'd also most likely be better competition for the Eriksen and Casemiro combination than Fred. Neves could play the further forward role and make use of his fantastic shot more. And NDidi could be trusted as the DM allowing Casemiro to get forward more.

Fred is coming off a good game but we know by now its a 1 in 6 or 7 rate.

 

[glaspalast]

If you have 5/10 players you have to get better ones. If all that's available is 7.5/10 then go for them for now.

Of course the problem is that your scouting has been atrocious, and you've signed 7.5/10 players that turned out to be 4/10s , and supposed 9/10s that turned out to be 7.5/10s (at best)

 

[croadyman]

Maybe change thread title to either RB or Striker

 

[NZT-One]

Maybe change thread title to either RB or Striker

I guess, because it is a bit of a stretch to call it reluctance when both positions have been adressed in the past, namely with Dalot and AWB, Martial and Ronaldo respectively.