I realise that the growth of the sport around the world is not necessarily a zero-sum game, but I do wonder whether the scale of investments being made by Saudi in its own league and by other states investing in European teams means that the US will--at least over the foreseeable future--be falling further and further behind the growth taking place on this side of the world?
Will the MLS ever take off?
- Thread starter Nani Nana
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If you're an american born latino (like me) growing up in some regular city, like Denver or something, then probably none of your friends are watching soccer. So you'll just gravitate to what's popular (Denver broncos, nuggets or Avalanche). Like for me, my father (Mexican descent but also american born) watched Nascar and american Football. You also have to remember that it was only in the last 15 years or so that soccer was highly televised on the big networks.
I think Apple TV coverage is taking that backwards. I have barely been able to watch Atlanta United because I will not pay the extra with an Apple TV subscription already.
This is also a very European perspective that no-one cares about here, and that won't hold back the MLS in terms of popularity across North America. Also, while it looks weird to European, it actually promotes competitiveness between teams. Cause while, in theory, Forest Green Rovers could make it up the leagues and win the CL, this is extremely unlikely to happen in practice. I mean, going up the leagues is still fairly possible with good management and a decent-sized investment, but making that final leap towards being a truly competitive side with CL chances is basically impossible (rare and one-off exceptions notwithstanding) given the money that the top clubs have to spend. The advantage of, for instance, the NHL's system is that every team has a chance of making it out of its slump and becoming truly competitive again. That's really fun for fans of teams, since there is no such thing as a 'pointless club' in the NHL or NBA; just (very) poor management. (Hi Sens!)
I'm not sure what this refers to. North American sports leagues are usually divided into multiple regional leagues, but you play teams from across all leagues. So yeah, winning the league doesn't mean a whole lot (although it does give advantages in the play-offs), but then nothing is designed towards that either. So yeah, I get the sentiment from a European perspective, but again, it doesn't have much to do with how sports are enjoyed over here.
Let's see how MLB does. Their viewership and overall interest in baseball have been on a downward trend, so that might leave a gap for the MLS. But obviously the MLB is working on fixing that as well.
I don't think it will last. Watching tv has become a pain if you have a set list of things you like, cause chances are they'll be divided between a couple of different streaming providers. It's annoying and expensive, and unlikely to last. I mean, I don't expect change right away, since this is still a pretty new phenomenon; but within a few years, we'll probably have streaming packages similar to the old cable packages (for similar costs, sigh) and a lot of this current inconvenience will be gone.
It already has.
Average viewing figures have already caught up to the NHL in America and the MLS Cup has even beat the Stanley Cup in recent times. MLB is also in a rapid decline and has an average viewer age of almost 20 years higher than the MLS.
Complaints of Apple TV don’t really stack up either. It’s not like they were free before. A normal Apple plus subscription gives access to a number of matches and the MLS pass is very cheap. Before Apple multiple cable subscriptions were required which cost even more and still didn’t even guarantee every match for your team with blackouts and games just not picked up. It’s also made it incredibly easier for fans outside America to watch as I literally couldn’t follow my club legally from the UK. Now I have every match at a fraction of the cost of a cable subscription back in Canada.
Average viewing figures have already caught up to the NHL in America and the MLS Cup has even beat the Stanley Cup in recent times. MLB is also in a rapid decline and has an average viewer age of almost 20 years higher than the MLS.
Complaints of Apple TV don’t really stack up either. It’s not like they were free before. A normal Apple plus subscription gives access to a number of matches and the MLS pass is very cheap. Before Apple multiple cable subscriptions were required which cost even more and still didn’t even guarantee every match for your team with blackouts and games just not picked up. It’s also made it incredibly easier for fans outside America to watch as I literally couldn’t follow my club legally from the UK. Now I have every match at a fraction of the cost of a cable subscription back in Canada.
The way this would work is the second division would need to be regional. Either split into East/West conferences or split four ways regionally and only play against sides in that conference/region; this would also apply to the third division on down and perhaps further split at the pro/semi-pro levels. This reduces travel costs and travel time. It works in MLB and NHL farm systems so in theory it could work in a national pyramid.
They do when you have to have an extra subscription service to watch just about everything now.
Those “cheap passes” start to add up really fast.
I hope it won’t. It’s just gotten to be a pain in the ass and wallet
I wonder if this is worldwide, to watch the EPL here in NZ is too expensive, I have resorted to shitty feeds online. We did for a while have a reasonable provider but now its basically Sky TV and there are pay per view options but its just too much. I can afford it but object to just how expensive it is. Im with you, I watch much less football now than just 10 years ago. The upside though is local grassroots footy fills the gap.
“Soccer “ won’t no
I pay $6/month for Peacock and can watch any EPL match that I desire. If you can sign-up for Peacock it's probably worth the cost, you also get access to their other stuff (with ads but I'm not paying extra for ad-free). I can't say if Peacock is available in your location.
My question would be why does it need to “take off” it’s still a fairly young league that seems to be continually growing. It’s not exploding in popularity, but does it need to? Or does it need to grow as it has been.
I don't understand why this question sitll pops up. As long as the European competitions remain as prestigious as they are, there is no catching up with them. Even bags of money just attract early retirees, as we've seen with the Saudi league and the Chinese before.
I also don't see a system that operates for profit every step of the way compete with European youth setups.
Nor do I see a closed competition doing the same for player development as an open competition.
I also don't see a system that operates for profit every step of the way compete with European youth setups.
Nor do I see a closed competition doing the same for player development as an open competition.
Osama, MLS visionary
Ive clearly missed something, your answer makes even less sense to me than the one I originally replied to
If MLS expands enough to allow for promotion and relegation it could be more relatable but as it stands it's not very watchable.
Plus the people who run MLS want to make it a closed shop and back out their first teams out of their equivalent of the FA Cup, the US Open cup in which they play teams from lower tiers. This has been reversed because of the backlash.
There is a very healthy system going at the USL level in which the teams are franchised, they're privately owned.
Plus the people who run MLS want to make it a closed shop and back out their first teams out of their equivalent of the FA Cup, the US Open cup in which they play teams from lower tiers. This has been reversed because of the backlash.
There is a very healthy system going at the USL level in which the teams are franchised, they're privately owned.
The post you quoted in valid confusion was implying another terrorist attack on the US would increase the popularity of the MLS
Same here. I try to catch a few LA Galaxy games but nope, stupid apple tv MLS subscription is needed now.
I think if you take a step back and compare the state of the MLS in the dark days 20 years ago with just 10 teams to where it is now, it's already taken off.
- Number of teams is up to 29
- They've built over 20 new (soccer specific) stadiums in the last 20 years, some of them quite sexy, especially the ones built in the last 5 years.
- 7 of the world's top 30 most valuable teams are US based according to the 2023 Forbes list. (Benefit of a closed loop league)
- Attendance is on a slow upwards trajectory.
- Expansion fees up 10 x in the last 10-12 years.
- Huge investments in academies producing more and more teenage talents (neccecary as the college model don't really work in football)
- It's already a desireable destination for south american talent
And this is the current state where it's very much still a small sport in the US.
Ad to it that demographics are good compared to all other major sports, the Messi effect, Copa America 2024, WC 2026 and even old farts like Kraft now willing to invest big money and the upward trajectory will only continue.
If they manage to gel the most talented national team they've ever had in time for that world cup so that they go deep (quarter finals or beyond), I think it will accelerate the growth even further.
Underneath all of this they have a healthy growth in the tier 2 & 3 professional leagues as well (USL)
I'd say MLS is somewhere in the 8-10 range best league in the world as it stands.
By 2030: Top 5 ( Sorry Liga MX, Eresdivise & Brasilian Serie A and Ligue 1 ) and bigger than NHL by a comfortable margin in the US.
- Number of teams is up to 29
- They've built over 20 new (soccer specific) stadiums in the last 20 years, some of them quite sexy, especially the ones built in the last 5 years.
- 7 of the world's top 30 most valuable teams are US based according to the 2023 Forbes list. (Benefit of a closed loop league)
- Attendance is on a slow upwards trajectory.
- Expansion fees up 10 x in the last 10-12 years.
- Huge investments in academies producing more and more teenage talents (neccecary as the college model don't really work in football)
- It's already a desireable destination for south american talent
And this is the current state where it's very much still a small sport in the US.
Ad to it that demographics are good compared to all other major sports, the Messi effect, Copa America 2024, WC 2026 and even old farts like Kraft now willing to invest big money and the upward trajectory will only continue.
If they manage to gel the most talented national team they've ever had in time for that world cup so that they go deep (quarter finals or beyond), I think it will accelerate the growth even further.
Underneath all of this they have a healthy growth in the tier 2 & 3 professional leagues as well (USL)
I'd say MLS is somewhere in the 8-10 range best league in the world as it stands.
By 2030: Top 5 ( Sorry Liga MX, Eresdivise & Brasilian Serie A and Ligue 1 ) and bigger than NHL by a comfortable margin in the US.
I think the standard of the average homegrown player would need to jump up quite a lot (and be able to retain the better talents for longer) for it to surpass Brazil or France.
Yeah you might be pushing it there … although I do agree with the overall premise. It’s definitely come up leaps bounds from when Beckham went over. I also think the games have a really unique atmosphere. I do think though that the playoff/non relegation system will always prevent it from becoming a globally watched league.
Maybe pushing it some.
The overall point is that momentum and size of the US market alone will make them challenge for that top 5 spot sooner than what most people think.
As some wise americans have pointed out in this thread: pro/rel is not relevant in the US market.
Claiming any other league than PL or La Liga is a globally watched league would be pushing it some too, no?
I agree, but it looks like to me that MLS academies have started producing quite a few homegrown players that become good earlier and at a higher frequency than before.
Sure, they are sold off to european clubs fairly quickly, but I see that as a good thing as it makes investment in the academies a better business proposition as they don't only produce players for MLS but also players that are attractive in the international market. This means that more money are entering the MLS eco system and that's obviously important for owners that like owning a team to be a good investment (Very much the norm in the US)
To become an elite league MLS would need to retain these talents longer of course, but it's not like the biggest brazilian talents don't move abroad early either, so I don't see that last point as a big 'hurdle' to overtake the brazilian league.
Ligue 1 are a further step up both on their ability to produce new talent and retaining that talent obviously.
No, not really. MLS is getting some attention now because of Messi, but when he goes, most people won’t give a shit any more. Even Miami’s own fans go streaming out of the stadium when Messi gets subbed off. There’s a lot of fanfare and celebrity attention on the league right now but none of it is deeply rooted in any sense. It’s transient and superficial.
There’s a diehard, hard core fan base across the league, that is good, but it’s not that large. On a general level, most Americans that watch any “soccer”, watch the premier league, which is available for about $10 a month (every game) across NBC, USA network and Peacock premium. And nearly all of them have an English team they support and most I speak to have a general disdain for the level and structure of MLS. The huge travelling distance for away games, the lack of relegation, the ridiculous draft system (who is seriously expecting to draft a quality player from the university system at 22 or 23 years old???), and the preposterous playoff format where half the league qualify, doesn’t help.
This year they added in the Leagues Cup, which was basically just a marketing vehicle for Messi but will mean feck all when he’s gone, and they tried to pull out of the Open Cup, which is the only part of US soccer with any historical pedigree.
Teams have at least started to sign promising young players from South America, which makes it more interesting as a shop window. But the attention still only really comes from aged stars retiring from Europe.
In the US market MLS competes primarily with the Premier League - which is on at a time that doesn’t clash with the NBA, NFL or MLB, or Liga Mexicana, which most of the first and second generation immigrants still follow very closely. They also have to deal with the strong following the Spanish big two get here too, although people only really watch the Clásico when it comes on, rather than most La Liga games.
MLS is so far behind all those leagues in terms of following, and is set up so poorly in comparison, that it is hard to ever see it realistically compete.
There’s a diehard, hard core fan base across the league, that is good, but it’s not that large. On a general level, most Americans that watch any “soccer”, watch the premier league, which is available for about $10 a month (every game) across NBC, USA network and Peacock premium. And nearly all of them have an English team they support and most I speak to have a general disdain for the level and structure of MLS. The huge travelling distance for away games, the lack of relegation, the ridiculous draft system (who is seriously expecting to draft a quality player from the university system at 22 or 23 years old???), and the preposterous playoff format where half the league qualify, doesn’t help.
This year they added in the Leagues Cup, which was basically just a marketing vehicle for Messi but will mean feck all when he’s gone, and they tried to pull out of the Open Cup, which is the only part of US soccer with any historical pedigree.
Teams have at least started to sign promising young players from South America, which makes it more interesting as a shop window. But the attention still only really comes from aged stars retiring from Europe.
In the US market MLS competes primarily with the Premier League - which is on at a time that doesn’t clash with the NBA, NFL or MLB, or Liga Mexicana, which most of the first and second generation immigrants still follow very closely. They also have to deal with the strong following the Spanish big two get here too, although people only really watch the Clásico when it comes on, rather than most La Liga games.
MLS is so far behind all those leagues in terms of following, and is set up so poorly in comparison, that it is hard to ever see it realistically compete.
From what I understand it's already grown exponentially in the last 2-4 decades. It's doing a very fine job of growing.
Maybe you should take quality of football into account too.
I think you're underrating Eresdivise, when you take into account teams like Ajex, Feynord and Endhofen. But comparing MLS to Ligur 1, even if it's aimed 7 years down the line sounds crazy.
Hopefully never. Can only imagine how arrogant Americans will be if they become good at the most popular sport in the world and have the best league.
I don't think there's much of a chance of it happening. American kids are too busy with video games and fast food to become good at football.
And yes to any Americans offended by this. I enjoy the mocking Americans get for sakker. Maybe if Chicago Fire win the world cup one day the MLS will become a top league.
I don't think there's much of a chance of it happening. American kids are too busy with video games and fast food to become good at football.
And yes to any Americans offended by this. I enjoy the mocking Americans get for sakker. Maybe if Chicago Fire win the world cup one day the MLS will become a top league.
Jesus, who from Iowa hurt you
The league is in a much better place nowadays, and the average quality of the american player is pretty much acceptable overall. I think the major factor of football not developing so much in North American countries is CONCACAF narrow views.
CONCACAF decision of not letting some central american federations continue to compete in CONMEBOL club competitions is doing more harm than good in the long term. Mexican clubs are clearly losing a bit of competitivity due to those decisions.
CONCACAF decision of not letting some central american federations continue to compete in CONMEBOL club competitions is doing more harm than good in the long term. Mexican clubs are clearly losing a bit of competitivity due to those decisions.
Do you pay for cable? How is that different?
I do and I don't say that MLS is better than the eresdivisie yet, but there isn't a huge difference.
Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV are obviously better than anything MLS can offer, but Eresdivisie is also Volendam, Heracles & Almere
Teams that are arguably significantly worse than anything MLS has to offer.
Strange how parity rules create less gaps from top to bottom.
It's not really strange that the gap from top to bottom is smaller when there are no top teams.I do and I don't say that MLS is better than the eresdivisie yet, but there isn't a huge difference.
Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV are obviously better than anything MLS can offer, but Eresdivisie is also Volendam, Heracles & Almere
Teams that are arguably significantly worse than anything MLS has to offer.
Strange how parity rules create less gaps from top to bottom.
What a sad post. Other than that, I will forever have to laugh at people mocking the word 'soccer' as if it's some weird North American invention.
The problem is Americans are not tied to sports franchises or … anything really … by the type of sentiment and community you have in older countries.
Soccer/football is taking off to some degree. But people here mostly ask “is MLS good?” and people respond with “it’s ok” or …”it sucks” then they ask where the best play and people usually tell them the PL is the best league… so they go pick a PL team to follow. It even has better tv coverage here … so in a lot of ways it’s not only a better product, it’s easier to follow.
Soccer/football is taking off to some degree. But people here mostly ask “is MLS good?” and people respond with “it’s ok” or …”it sucks” then they ask where the best play and people usually tell them the PL is the best league… so they go pick a PL team to follow. It even has better tv coverage here … so in a lot of ways it’s not only a better product, it’s easier to follow.
I found the origins of the term very ironic and funny as well.What a sad post. Other than that, I will forever have to laugh at people mocking the word 'soccer' as if it's some weird North American invention.
I think if soccer takes off in the US, it will automatically trickle down to the MLS.
Because if you have cable then you also have to pay for the extra paywalls & with the cable / internet service available where I live, they charge you more for just internet than they do for cable + internet
Are you posting from Australia?
The Mexican league is still better... though as stated above, the quality there has dipped