With what we have: How do we stop the hole in our central defence?

[el3mel]

We can't.

Try to score more goals. We need at least 3 goals a game to ensure a win. That's what Liverpool used to do with their crap defending.

 

[golden_blunder]

He’s gonna go all Kenny dalglish in the next match and start ALL his fit defenders

 

[Lentwood]

Well two things are for certain for me;

1. One of the players has to be Bailly

2. One of the players cannot be Lindelof

The 2nd spot is up for grabs between Smalling, Rojo and Jones. I feel Rojo hasn’t let us down 1/10th as much as the other two and should get a run of games when fit.

Alternatively we could go with a three but the problem with that is we don’t really have someone capable of carrying the ball out

 

[sun_tzu]

we have had one of (possibly the best?) records for goals conceded over the last 2 seasons under Jose

I dont think the players have become suddenly worse so im not sure what to put it down to - the only immediately obvious thing is rui faria leaving - though thats probably an over simplification

settle on a defensive unit - back them and ensure where possible they are training as a unit and im sure it will get sorted

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Perhaps it's time for Mourinho to stick to a side regardless of the mistakes they make.

It's not that we have better options sat on the bench so he should start instilling some confidence amongst his players. Chopping and changing doesn't help anyone.

 

[Red1968]

They already have the talent on defense. What they need is different tactics on their marking and tracking back. So many times in the past few years I have seen United defenders completely fall apart on opposition's quick counterattacks. There seems to be confusion on who is supposed to do what in the heat of the moment. In addition, the lazy tracking back and ball watching has to stop. Matic? yesterday just jogged back to the box on Spurs 2nd goal. Lucas started his run towards the box right next to him and left him in the dust.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

They already have the talent on defense. What they need is different tactics on their marking and tracking back. So many times in the past few years I have seen United defenders completely fall apart on opposition's quick counterattacks. There seems to be confusion on who is supposed to do what in the heat of the moment. In addition, the lazy tracking back and ball watching has to stop. Matic? yesterday just jogged back to the box on Spurs 2nd goal. Lucas started his run towards the box right next to him and left him in the dust.

I don't agree with that. What we have is plenty of numbers; what we don't have is world class talent. None of our centre backs are currently worthy of a place in a United team, IMHO. Bailly looked excellent when he signed, but his form has collapsed too. The rest are middle of road solid pros, nothing more.

 

[TheReligion]

Love won't make them better than they are.

Last season Mourinho protected the defence by restricting our midfield. However, people complained that it was boring and it was killing Pogba.

So now, perhaps to prove a point, we're now playing a more open game. For three games running we've tried to play a more open game, two of them without a proper defensive midfielder and then last night by pressing high and going at Spurs.

If we were clinical that might be a way forward but we're missing open goals.

If Jose goes back to being ultra defensive we'll probably win more but there will be more criticism that we're too defensive.

We've now had two managers, Van Gaal and Mourinho, who have come in, assessed our squad and decided that the only way forward is to play two holding midfielders and make sure the wingers can play disciplined to protect the full backs. Neither of these managers are idiots. Our defence is weak and without investment the only way to protect it is to play in a low block with two banks of four.

Pep Guardiola is one the best attacking coaches in the world but what did he do when he arrived at City and saw Hart, DeMichellis, Clichy, Sagna, Kolarov, Zabaleta etc? He binned them off. Then he binned off Bravo, then mid season after spending £50m on Stones he bought £60m Laporte to supplement Kompany and Otamendi. My point? Even the best coaches in the world cannot turn dirt into gold. They're not alchemists.

Without better defenders we cannot play expansive football. If we play expansive football we cannot protect that defence. The goals will continue to leak.

Good summary and my thoughts

 

[FootyGirl88]

Smalling - Bailly

Don't rotate them until necessary.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

Smalling - Bailly

Don't rotate them until necessary.

I would agree. Those two seem the best option just now. Drop the back three FFS.

 

[Cutch]

Don't pair any of them with Jones or Lindelof. Too error prone and both encourage mass panic

 

[TheReligion]

Think it's got to be Bailly and Smalling but the issue is there's zero distribution from the back. De Gea isn't great with the ball at his feet either which further complicates things.

It could be an idea to do a Pep and have the full backs come inside and play out that way?

 

[Doracle]

Just settle on a back 4, which does not include Lindelöf, and stick with it so far as possible. We are not going to get better chopping and changing nor is randomly playing a midfielder at RCB in a three going to be the answer.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

It has to be Smalling-Bailly for me. And hope for the best. Don't want to see Lindelof involved in any more PL games until he's sold next summer (fingers crossed). Jones will be crocked until Xmas now, so that leaves Chris/Eric and Rojo....christ.

 

[Freak]

I actually liked the way we set up in the first half yesterday. Think this might work although we never really know anymore.

———————-DDG————————-
———Bailly—Smalling—Rojo————
Valencia—--Fred—--Matic——-Shaw
———-Lingard————-Pogba——-
————————Lukaku——————

 

[stevoc]

I can see a 5-3-2 coming.

---------------------------------DDG----------------
Valencia--Smalling--Lindelof--Bailly---Young
---------------------------------Matic------------------------
------------------------Fred----------Pogba--------------
---------------------Lukaku--------Sanchez

I really don't see how taking the centrebacks we have who bar Smalling are not good defensively and not only playing more of them but shoving them into a fairly unfamiliar system is the answer. To do this we also have to drop an attacker, i think yesterday showed that 3 at the back is definitely no the answer to the current defensive frailty.

 

[Havak]

We have to try Bailly + Smalling with Matic in front of them now. Phil Jones has to go and we need to bring in Alderweireld - this should've just been done in the Summer like I imagine José wanted (maybe with Rojo leaving rather than Jones). There must be tension with the board and José, which is unfortunate. The board doesn't really have a leg to stand on in their opinion on who we need though, looking at the season's results so far and seven goals shipped.

 

[TheReligion]

My thoughts are we must look at what Pep did and be inventive. He had the same problem and used the wing backs coming inside as a short term solution. In the meantime though the club bought him two new ball playing keepers and five new £40m+ defenders to remedy the issue long term.

We have tired using Pogba to collect the ball from deep, as Scholes used to do, but that limits us elsewhere and doesn't really suit Pogba.

In honesty I'm not sure what we can do but we need to find a way of by passing the time our CBs spend on the ball and just let them defend.

 

[drdoityourself]

Need to settle on 2. And stick with them through one or two bad games. All this chopping and changing can't be helping.

Bailly and Smalling, both have enough recovery pace to cover for the inevitable gaffe from the other.
Smalling's good in the air and Bailly is better on the ball.

Not a dream scenario but I think it's the best available at this point.

 

[AgentP]

Score more goals? Liverpool and City went that route when they had shit defenders. Atleast we'll go down firing. LVG should have stuck to his guns after the Leicester game instead of going ultra-cautious. I want Jose to go in that direction rather than asking the full backs and midfielders to play more defensively.

Also just stick with Bailly and Lindelof, give them a run of games to gain some confidence. We all know how many mistakes Stones used to make and Maguire continues to make in defense. But they were still played and have become much better for it.

 

[RedDevil@84]

A whole new backline besides Shaw. They are not good enough for Manchester United. Same as manager.

This is why one should read the OP or at least the thread title. Jose out is being discussed in multiple threads already

 

[Physiocrat]

I really don't see how taking the centrebacks we have who bar Smalling are not good defensively and not only playing more of them but shoving them into a fairly unfamiliar system is the answer. To do this we also have to drop an attacker, i think yesterday showed that 3 at the back is definitely no the answer to the current defensive frailty.

It's not something I'd want to see but is something I can see Jose dping

 

[FootyGirl88]

My thoughts are we must look at what Pep did and be inventive. He had the same problem and used the wing backs coming inside as a short term solution. In the meantime though the club bought him two new ball playing keepers and five new £40m+ defenders to remedy the issue long term.

We have tired using Pogba to collect the ball from deep, as Scholes used to do, but that limits us elsewhere and doesn't really suit Pogba.

In honesty I'm not sure what we can do but we need to find a way of by passing the time our CBs spend on the ball and just let them defend.

That's why I would have Pereira in the team, he can handle the press and always plays the ball forward. We need to settle on a back four but we also need to settle on a midfield too.

 

[humdinger]

2 options basically- we either try to fix it and be very disciplined and load the defence with bodies or we accept we are always going to give the opposition a goal headstart and free most of the team up to attack instead to try and compensate. Unfortunately our attackers aren’t all that these days either so it’s not an obvious fix.

 

[devilish]

I think that Mou's reasoning is pretty simple. He knew the defence was shit, he asked for new players and the club turned him down. So instead of playing defensive football which get criticised by everybody, he's playing the United way while expecting the defence to do its job . If it succeeds then he'll get the merit for winning WHILE playing attacking football. If it fails,he'll get sacked because he was right in the first place which of course will make Woodward look like an amateur. A win win situation for him. No wonder why Woody is constantly leaving the pitch with the same facial expression of a 3 year old who had just been told that he cant eat sweets before he finishes the veggies.

In terms of tactics I think a 3-5-2 system could work. DDG in goal, Smalling, Bailly and Lindelof as CBs, Shaw and Valencia as wingbacks, Fred, Matic and Pogba in midfield with Sanchez and Lukaku upfront.

 

[bosnian_red]

Have better coaching and a system that can organize them better defensively for a start. Liverpool having a shite defense didnt stop them playing great attacking football in the first half of last season. Klopp got the best out of what he had, then upgraded and then that took it up to the next level. We cant get the best out of what we have, who is to say itll be fixed with a signing when every signing we make looks worse than what we had before?

Good coaching is getting the best out of what you have and playing a way that suits them. What Mourinho has done is the complete opposite to that.

 

[sunama]

Stop telling your CBs that they aren't good enough & that you need to buy better players?

Too late for that mate.
And as you saw yesterday, all our CBs are bang average. I think Smalling might be the best.
Lindelof and Baily are still young, learning and may come good.
Jones, on the other hand, should be told that he will never play in the first team ever again.

I did notice during LVG's time, that when the opponent got past our midfield, they'd cut through our defenders like a hot knife through butter and then DDG would have to make a save. I saw this on numerous occasions.
Many said that our defence was good, but IMO it wasn't. We had to defend as a team in order to protect our defender from getting exposed...who were poor.

For the first time in a while, we saw us play with an attacking mindset. This meant that midfielders were told to play further up the pitch and focus on attack. This meant that our defenders would have to defend.
When this was asked of them, we all saw the result: 3 goals conceded in a single half.

The only answer is to buy 2 new defenders. Woodward should've listened to Jose and got Toby. Whether Jose stays or doesn't, we need a top quality defender immediately.

 

[devilish]

----------DDG-----------
----Smalling--Bailly---Lindelof-----

Valencia------Matic----------Shaw

----------Fred-------Pogba------------

----------Sanchez-----------------

------------------Lukaku------------

 

[Pass and Move]

One thing which infuriated me last night was a lack of commitment/effort from Jones and Lindelöf at crucial moments.

Jones stopped sprinting the moment he thought Matic would reach Moura meaning he was forced to try to make up ground once that didn't happen and as a result almost conceded a penalty. Then for Moura's goal Lindelöf stopped when he though Smalling would tackle him. This didn't happen and so Moura ended up being clean through. Both incidents could have been avoided had they committed to seeing the situation through properly instead of stopping at the earliest possible opportunity. I cannot stand seeing players choosing not to pick up a runner etc whilst playing for United when anyone playing 5 aside against their colleagues will run till then drop every week.

On a side not, last night Smalling was playing in the middle of a three admittedly, but in general he has a reluctance to peel off to the side of the box to receive a pass from de Gea. A few times last night he was standing with Kane between himself and de Gea, denying us of a ball out from the back.

 

[sunama]

Have better coaching and a system that can organize them better defensively for a start. Liverpool having a shite defense didnt stop them playing great attacking football in the first half of last season. Klopp got the best out of what he had, then upgraded and then that took it up to the next level. We cant get the best out of what we have, who is to say itll be fixed with a signing when every signing we make looks worse than what we had before?

Good coaching is getting the best out of what you have and playing a way that suits them. What Mourinho has done is the complete opposite to that.

It's funny that you should mention good coaching.
Coaching did not help Klopp at all. They leaked goals. To this end Klopp bought a new GK and CB, for big money.

It's strange that people are happy to defend Klopp buying a new defensive line, but are not happy with Jose doing the same.

 

[Al-T]

Think it has to be Bailley and Smalling and hope they both stay fit enough to get a run with Matic in front of them.

Personally, I wouldn't have sold Blind, who buy and large looked solid enough alongside Smalling, at least until we had secured a new CB. And for my money, Jones and/or Rojo would have been out the door before him.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Whatever we choose is just a sticking plaster as they are all inadequate in one way or another. I’d go for Smalling plus Bailly or, when fit, Rojo. Lindelöf looks mentally shot and, if he were a horse, Jones would be shot. Combine it with a return to more cautious football as they need plenty of protection from midfield. The immediate priority is to staunch the flow of goals in order to restore some confidence.

All very depressing - if you ever wondered what a team managed by Sam Allardyce with a large warchest would look like, we are about to find out.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Play with 2 DMs ahead of them and keep as much possession as possible. Basically a 4-2-3-1.

Lukaku
Sanchez Pogba Lingard
Matic Fred/Herrera
Shaw Bozo#1 Bozo#2 Tony
deGea​

 

[bosnian_red]

It's funny that you should mention good coaching.
Coaching did not help Klopp at all. They leaked goals. To this end Klopp bought a new GK and CB, for big money.

It's strange that people are happy to defend Klopp buying a new defensive line, but are not happy with Jose doing the same.

Klopp still brought a good level out of what he had. Occasionally, the goalkeeper would feck up or lovren/Mario or whoever would feck up. In terms of restricting amount of chances, they actually did fairly well. Their team still played really good attacking football, he brought the best out of most of them. He then upgraded 2 positions where they were obviously lacking despite coaching, and its brought instant upgrade.

Mourinho fails to coach any sort of organization in our team and we look all over the place most of the time and rely on de gea to bail us out. We have more systemic failures than individual mistakes (though theres plenty of both). We have some quality individuals all over the pitch, yet with every signing we seem to get worse. Matic and Pogha regularly get dominated by other midfields. Lukaku does worse for United then he did for Everton. Sanchez looks pub level. The list goes on. The only players I would say who is playing or has played at a level they have never played at before (or similar to a previous peak) is lingard and Young,and for lingard you could say either it's just opportunity and natural development, though I guess we can be nice and give Mou a little bit of credit

2 players. That doesnt paint a good image of the manager.

 

[gerdm07]

Exactly this.

Instead of encouraging healthy competition for places, Mourinho has somehow created an environment where everyone is terrified of making the slightest mistake and being hung out to dry. I have never seen top level footballers make so many basic errors and be so reluctant to get on the ball.

What people forget about the likes of Rio and Vidic is that they did make mistakes occasionally, but they weren't crucified for it and the next game they went straight back to playing on the front foot. The positives of playing like that far outweighed the cost of the odd mistake. Under Mourinho a misplaced pass would be a tongue lashing in the press and on the bench for a month.

I'm with these thoughts. Does anyone think it is good for the confidence and career of Bailly and Andreas by not selecting them for the 18 vs Tottenham? I'm betting that Andreas doesn't see the pitch for any Premiere League matches for a while (next start will probably be a cup match against some lowly opponent). So all the good from the preseason is washed away. I don't understand this sort of managing. All the players who are not automatic first selection have to play scared that a mistake means they don't see playing time for a month. This is nuts.

 

[Long Ball]

Love won't make them better than they are.

Last season Mourinho protected the defence by restricting our midfield. However, people complained that it was boring and it was killing Pogba.

So now, perhaps to prove a point, we're now playing a more open game. For three games running we've tried to play a more open game, two of them without a proper defensive midfielder and then last night by pressing high and going at Spurs.

If we were clinical that might be a way forward but we're missing open goals.

If Jose goes back to being ultra defensive we'll probably win more but there will be more criticism that we're too defensive.

We've now had two managers, Van Gaal and Mourinho, who have come in, assessed our squad and decided that the only way forward is to play two holding midfielders and make sure the wingers can play disciplined to protect the full backs. Neither of these managers are idiots. Our defence is weak and without investment the only way to protect it is to play in a low block with two banks of four.

Pep Guardiola is one the best attacking coaches in the world but what did he do when he arrived at City and saw Hart, DeMichellis, Clichy, Sagna, Kolarov, Zabaleta etc? He binned them off. Then he binned off Bravo, then mid season after spending £50m on Stones he bought £60m Laporte to supplement Kompany and Otamendi. My point? Even the best coaches in the world cannot turn dirt into gold. They're not alchemists.

Without better defenders we cannot play expansive football. If we play expansive football we cannot protect that defence. The goals will continue to leak.

spot on post. LVG was positive until we shipped a load of goals against leicester

also agree pep gets away with replacing yet another 50mil defender with a shiny new toy yet our fans bash mourinho saying he's not allowed another cb after buying bailly and lindelof. its pretty clear he wants to play 5 at the back so of course a third cb signing makes sense

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Smalling - Bailly against teams with Strong/experienced forwards: Kane, Deeney etc.
Smalling - Lindelof against teams with smart and technical attackers. Most top teams.
Do a Mourinho tactical neutralizing against the top teams.

 

[diarm]

United coaches and fans seem to have very odd memories when it comes to players, quality and form. I remember when Rooney was playing badly at centre forward, everyone was saying he was a much better midfielder and was being played out of position. Then he'd get a run in the middle and everyone would be crying about how he was wasted in midfield and that Rooney had always been a striker.

Now it's the same with our defenders. Smalling doesn't play a few games and suddenly he's the answer to all our woes. Rojo is out injured so people suddenly reckon he's the forgotten messiah. Bailly missed out on the debacle last night so some have already forgotten that he was twice as bad as Lindelof last week.

All of our defenders are liabilities. None of them can keep themselves fit and when they do have a small window where pieces of them aren't broken, they're all as likely to score a goal for the opposition as stop one. Spurs have 3 centre backs and they manage to get through season after season with a decent defence and very few injuries while our lads are falling over each other trying to be first up onto the physios table.

I'd honestly have preferred to ship out Smalling, Jones and Rojo this summer and gone with Tuanzebe, Fosu-Mensah, Bailly and Lindelof for the season. At least Bailly has ever looked like a quality defender and Lindelof deserved the chance to show some improvement (he clearly hasn't so far). The two youngsters at least seem able to play for ten minutes without pulling something and I'd prefer to watch them make mistakes that they'll learn from than watching Jones and Smalling make the same mistakes they've been making for half a decade.

I'm as critical of Jose's behaviour in the last few months as anyone, but while I agree that we need more consistency in selection, you can't not drop fellas after performances like Brighton and Spurs and you can't give fellas a proper run in the team unless they're fit.

In answer to the OP question - recall Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe. They're not good enough yet but I'd prefer to make the investment now. Tell Jones, Rojo and Smalling they are free to find new clubs.

 

[Ballache]

-------------Bailly-Smalling-Rojo------------
Valencia----------------------------------Shaw
-------------------------Matic-----------------------
--------------Fred-----------------Pogba----------
--------------Lukaku-----------Sanchez--------

 

[Van Piorsing]

Make a use of that coaching staff you have and start drilling the defense to be focused 90 minutes on the job. Players receive massive wages and it's not too much requiring some level of professionalism.