Woodward, Glazers....

[ivaldo]

The owners only spend to get the club back into Champions League, this is the trend, this is the strategy. I never said the Glazers were stupid, stop making arguments up in your head. The Glazers and Woodward are doing exactly what they planned. Money is the reason the Glazers own the club, not glory, so of course prize money accounts for the decisions made at board level. The Glazers have shown little to no interest in closing the gap to first yet spend twice as much in transfer windows following a season with failure to qualify for Champions League. I really do not understand the argument you are presenting at this stage.

And I didn't say you called them stupid. Stop finding an argument where there isn't one, and while we are at it, try to stay to the one point you made in the original post. On several occasions now you've tried to pivot to a discussion on the competency of the owner or their intentions, as opposed to focusing on expenditure, the point you originally made and I responded to. Besides, I don't think anyone has said they are after glory?

There's an incredibly obvious link between success and profitability for clubs. Honestly, it's like some people don't even realize we are in the middle of a global crisis. Are we just pretending we are the only ones watching pennies this window in order to find a pattern? You realise that Chelsea are the only top 6 club that has a bigger net spend so far this window? Coincidentally, a club owned by a sugar daddy, that spent nothing last window and was banned the window before that. Barcelona has a net spend of £7m. Madrid has signed no one. Bayern has signed one player. Dortmund have signed Bellingham and Can. Even PSG have only spent £50m

Again, prize money accounts for very little. Commercial income matters considerably more, and guess whats easier to sell: Scraping 3/4th place in the PL or winning the champions league? I know it's an inconvenient truth, but if you don't think the Glazers understand this then you're in denial about it. The world is on its arse right now. Let's not pretend otherwise.

 

[croadyman]

When is the Ole presser

Guess it will be "The market is still open" till the last week and then "We are happy with our squad" in October.

Tomorrow morning I am guessing but we all know what he will say

 

[croadyman]

That is both shocking and not surprising at the same time. For such a great player and servant of the club.
Little things like that have been leaking out over the past few years repeatedly about Woodward and the board, the way things are managed. Woodward seems to treat good communication like money.
Van Gaal, although a bit mad himself, mentioned how he was surprised how we operated.
Let’s see what happens in the remaining two weeks but even if sancho is signed, I hope people don’t just then shower praise on that lot because they repeatedly do their best to keep us mediocre.
Of course, covid 19 is, unfortunately, a valid excuse, but when we’re so close to progressing, and having taken out a loan, surely we should be getting things done.

I never showered praise on that lot even when we were winning a league/champions league double in 2008 because they have always been bloodsucking yankee leeches who have bled us dry for the last 15 years, yes we may have spent money but notice how the media very rarely have the guts to drag our owners over the coals about just how much they have also taken out of the club whereas that doesn't happen at City or Chelsea.

 

[sammsky1]

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Like I said in that post, the crime is not failing to sign Sancho but the complete lack of an alternative plan and the paralysis that has characterized our window. Greenwood is just as promising as Sancho was at a similar age but we all know that we can't rely on him for consistent performances throughout the season. I know we all hate mediocrity but there is a huge gap between Lingard/Pereira/Mata and someone like Perisic/Brooks/Bale who could have come in to help stabilize that right wing whilst Greenwood matured at his own pace like we had Fletcher and Ole filling in on he right whilst Ronaldo found his feet. We could then have used the remainder of the money to strengthen the defence, our fullback options are pathetic. The standing still is what I find unacceptable.

I don't there is a huge gap between Brooks and what we have, slight upgrade maybe, but not worth 10's of millions on. Bringing 31 year old Bale which would basically mean benching Greenwood which after his performances this season would be a mistake, its a Mourinho type short term signing. As for Perisic bringing in a winger who is 32 in the next season, who has never played in the premier league and would want at least a 3 year contract on probably pretty big wages, meaning we would be paying him till he is 35, which is not a useful age for a winger.

I personally think our full-back options are pretty good, Wan Bissaka is young and had a good first season, Williams for a first season in the premier league did really well, he deserves the opportunity to step up and with Shaw, Dalot, Rojo & Fosu-Mensah we have options. As for centre back we have 7 in the squad we need to sell at least 2 before we think about signing anyone.

 

[croadyman]

Say what you like about his character but he isn't wrong when he says that in my opinion

 

[croadyman]

I don't there is a huge gap between Brooks and what we have, slight upgrade maybe, but not worth 10's of millions on. Bringing 31 year old Bale which would basically mean benching Greenwood which after his performances this season would be a mistake, its a Mourinho type short term signing. As for Perisic bringing in a winger who is 32 in the next season, who has never played in the premier league and would want at least a 3 year contract on probably pretty big wages, meaning we would be paying him till he is 35, which is not a useful age for a winger.

I personally think our full-back options are pretty good, Wan Bissaka is young and had a good first season, Williams for a first season in the premier league did really well, he deserves the opportunity to step up and with Shaw, Dalot, Rojo & Fosu-Mensah we have options. As for centre back we have 7 in the squad we need to sell at least 2 before we think about signing anyone.

Where is the backup LB though and Perisic would be much better than having nothing at all and means we wouldn't have to run Mason into the ground, in regards to the CB situation we simply have to sell two but looks like there are no plans to bring one in anyway after we dithered and let Upamecano's release clause opportunity slip straight through our fingers. Oh yeah Dalot should be sold and we shouldn't be resorting to playing Fosu Mensah & Williams at LB just because we couldn't be bothered to sign anyone this summer.

 

[Tel074]

We won't ever compete for the title on any regular basis as long as these parasites own our club ..

The Glazers have put in next to none of their own money into the club yet have taking out something along the lines of 250 million into their own pockets .

Everytime we get into the top 4 and qualify for the CL they don't spend . It's plain and obvious the reason why !
This is our target under them and its all about making money .

If we finish outside the top 4 and end up with Europa League football then they will spend to get us back into the top 4 where they want us .
This has been happening since Ferguson but his genius hid the lack of funding .
They screwed Moyes , LVG and Jose and they will screw Ole .
We as fans need to see through this and instead of getting on Oles back or the players spend your energy getting on the back of the owners and Woodward and co.

Our great club will never be great again until this scum sells up ..

 

[croadyman]

We won't ever compete for the title on any regular basis as long as these parasites own our club ..

The Glazers have put in next to none of their own money into the club yet have taking out something along the lines of 250 million into their own pockets .

Everytime we get into the top 4 and qualify for the CL they don't spend . It's plain and obvious the reason why !
This is our target under them and its all about making money .

If we finish outside the top 4 and end up with Europa League football then they will spend to get us back into the top 4 where they want us .
This has been happening since Ferguson but his genius hid the lack of funding .
They screwed Moyes , LVG and Jose and they will screw Ole .
We as fans need to see through this and instead of getting on Oles back or the players spend your energy getting on the back of the owners and Woodward and co.

Our great club will never be great again until this scum sells up ..

Absolutely superb post and couldn't have put it any better

 

[JPRouve]

And I didn't say you called them stupid. Stop finding an argument where there isn't one, and while we are at it, try to stay to the one point you made in the original post. On several occasions now you've tried to pivot to a discussion on the competency of the owner or their intentions, as opposed to focusing on expenditure, the point you originally made and I responded to. Besides, I don't think anyone has said they are after glory?

There's an incredibly obvious link between success and profitability for clubs. Honestly, it's like some people don't even realize we are in the middle of a global crisis. Are we just pretending we are the only ones watching pennies this window in order to find a pattern? You realise that Chelsea are the only top 6 club that has a bigger net spend so far this window? Coincidentally, a club owned by a sugar daddy, that spent nothing last window and was banned the window before that. Barcelona has a net spend of £7m. Madrid has signed no one. Bayern has signed one player. Dortmund have signed Bellingham and Can. Even PSG have only spent £50m

Again, prize money accounts for very little. Commercial income matters considerably more, and guess whats easier to sell: Scraping 3/4th place in the PL or winning the champions league? I know it's an inconvenient truth, but if you don't think the Glazers understand this then you're in denial about it. The world is on its arse right now. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I have a small disagreement regarding prize money. I arbitrarily decided that each teams won all of their games and reached the QF of each competition, in the EL you gain 8.73m€ and in the CL 43.35m€ and that's ignoring the TV rights and potential differences in attendance. United budget is far superior to the majority of CL QF teams, so if their plan includes not being at least a perennial CL contender than they are morons because it's not a small amount that they are forfeiting.

Also I believe that it strengthens your point.

 

[The Irish Connection]

I never showered praise on that lot even when we were winning a league/champions league double in 2008 because they have always been bloodsucking yankee leeches who have bled us dry for the last 15 years, yes we may have spent money but notice how the media very rarely have the guts to drag our owners over the coals about just how much they have also taken out of the club whereas that doesn't happen at City or Chelsea.

Yes, it took us years to sign a competent midfield to replace scholes and keanes influences, now it’s the right wing.
As much as city have cheated the rules, you have to admit that at least their owners’ intent is to improve the football team over anything else.
Instead, we have a handicap around our necks every year.

 

[croadyman]

Yes, it took us years to sign a competent midfield to replace scholes and keanes influences, now it’s the right wing.
As much as city have cheated the rules, you have to admit that at least their owners’ intent is to improve the football team over anything else.
Instead, we have a handicap around our necks every year.

Yeah and that noose seems to get tighter every season

 

[marktan]

We won't ever compete for the title on any regular basis as long as these parasites own our club ..

The Glazers have put in next to none of their own money into the club yet have taking out something along the lines of 250 million into their own pockets .

Everytime we get into the top 4 and qualify for the CL they don't spend . It's plain and obvious the reason why !
This is our target under them and its all about making money .

If we finish outside the top 4 and end up with Europa League football then they will spend to get us back into the top 4 where they want us .
This has been happening since Ferguson but his genius hid the lack of funding .
They screwed Moyes , LVG and Jose and they will screw Ole .
We as fans need to see through this and instead of getting on Oles back or the players spend your energy getting on the back of the owners and Woodward and co.

Our great club will never be great again until this scum sells up ..

It's worse than that - we've spent £838m (!) in the last 10 years financing their ownership of us.

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[KiD MoYeS]

I'm just very frustrated and venting in this thread. Honestly this club is bad for your mental health, I've been pissed off all day.

Anyway, roll on Saturday, it's only off field stuff that's sending me (right now).

 

[ivaldo]

I have a small disagreement regarding prize money. I arbitrarily decided that each teams won all of their games and reached the QF of each competition, in the EL you gain 8.73m€ and in the CL 43.35m€ and that's ignoring the TV rights and potential differences in attendance. United budget is far superior to the majority of CL QF teams, so if their plan includes not being at least a perennial CL contender than they are morons because it's not a small amount that they are forfeiting.

Also I believe that it strengthens your point.

Well in that case, I'm not going to dispute it

 

[croadyman]

I'm just very frustrated and venting in this thread. Honestly this club is bad for your mental health, I've been pissed off all day.

Anyway, roll on Saturday, it's only off field stuff that's sending me (right now).

Right now it feels very difficult to get up for the game on Saturday

 

[JPRouve]

Well in that case, I'm not going to dispute it

I still want your opinion on those 34m that are in theory easy money since our budget is already at the required level. Because to me it's a big flaw in the arguments used by a part of the press and fanbase, the Glazers are smart and have a plan built around making money but they just give up at least the equivalent of 5% of our highest turnover?

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Where is the backup LB though and Perisic would be much better than having nothing at all and means we wouldn't have to run Mason into the ground, in regards to the CB situation we simply have to sell two but looks like there are no plans to bring one in anyway after we dithered and let Upamecano's release clause opportunity slip straight through our fingers. Oh yeah Dalot should be sold and we shouldn't be resorting to playing Fosu Mensah & Williams at LB just because we couldn't be bothered to sign anyone this summer.

Persic as back up would be fine, but by the fact, Bayern have already turned down a deal were not talking a cheap deal, and spending a lot on an ageing winger to use as back up is the kind of stupid decision that has got this squad into this mess.

As for LB we have Williams who had a decent first season, And Shaw, Dalot and Rojo who can play there, if we buy someone they have to be a substantial upgrade, is Reguilón a big upgrade? maybe? I don't think it a clear cut.

As for selling a centre back.... saying we only need to sell two is far easier than said than done with the wages we pay and the form of the players in question

 

[croadyman]

Persic as back up would be fine, but by the fact, Bayern have already turned down a deal were not talking a cheap deal, and spending a lot on an ageing winger to use as back up is the kind of stupid decision that has got this squad into this mess.

As for LB we have Williams who had a decent first season, And Shaw, Dalot and Rojo who can play there, if we buy someone they have to be a substantial upgrade, is Reguilón a big upgrade? maybe? I don't think it a clear cut.

As for selling a centre back.... saying we only need to sell two is far easier than said than done with the wages we pay and the form of the players in question

Williams is not a LB you saw that after Shaw got injured, if we don't go and get Telles or this Mykolenko guy in the next three weeks we are in big trouble trust me on that, we have also massively screwed up by paying the likes of Jones & Rojo so much money because now we are lumbered with them

 

[led_scholes]

I understand they Glazers want to make money out of us. The thing is, they literally want to milk the club. They have invested little in our facilities, they spend only panic money in order to be a top 6 club and then waste money in wages in players like Jones, Lingard, Matic etc, because they prefer to spend in wages than in transfers since they believe for them is cheaper this way. Their business cycle is:
1) spend few while expecting maximun results
2) spend alot since the results are awful (bailout)
3) after the bailout, minimum, short-term success is achieved so they return to the first step.

Eventually, they spend more with this modus operandi compared to investing money in a non-reactionary way and for long term succes. Obviously, for the tiny minority (them and some other shareholders), this is cost-effectient (even though if the management was better, their profits could be better), but for the majority (the fans) it sucks. They truly are the incarnation of neoliberal economics and everything wrong with them!

 

[Abdullah7]

Ed Woodward should have been demoted/fired 3-4 years ago. imagine Woddy doing his shenanigans at Juve. how long will he last? How can it happen to a prestigious club like Manchester United for this long?

The problem is in front of us since 05, The Glazers. Those parasites are abusing the clubs resources to fill up their pockets every single year. It's getting beyond ridiculous and there are many incidents that indicate them to be the culprit. For example, they Sold Ronaldo for a huge sum then brought Valenciea Obertan and Owen. They're still doing the same thing and they'll persist until the United family gathered together to get red of this filth.

 

[croadyman]

Ed Woodward should have been demoted/fired 3-4 years ago. imagine Woddy doing his shenanigans at Juve. how long will he last? How can it happen to a prestigious club like Manchester United for this long?

The problem is in front of us since 05, The Glazers. Those parasites are abusing the clubs resources to fill up their pockets every single year. It's getting beyond ridiculous and there are many incidents that indicate them to be the culprit. For example, they Sold Ronaldo for a huge sum then brought Valenciea Obertan and Owen. They're still doing the same thing and they'll persist until the United family gathered together to get red of this filth.

The trouble is when you complain about the Glazers not spending much we end up getting the line from the media & radio about just how much we have spent since Fergie retired which is such a tiring line

 

[Giggsyking]

So you cannot name any?

He is not a fecking scout! why are you asking him this question? why the feck do we have scouts to begin with? what is their job if Caf members can identify talents by watching football on TV?

 

[Giggsyking]

I am just going to watch and enjoy. No more expectations for United until Glazers leaves.

Fixed it for you

 

[UnitedFan93]

Any United fan moaning about the Glazers but still renewing their season tickets year after year need to take a long hard look at themselves. It's one thing supporting the club, it's another thing lining the pockets of a family that are hell-bent on financially raping the club.

 

[JPRouve]

It's worse than that - we've spent £838m (!) in the last 10 years financing their ownership of us.

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That's not actually accurate. For some reason he put the refinancings of senior loans as solely debt repayment, the previous senior loans had interest rates around 8.4% and the new ones were below 4%. And the 140m loan is due to the absence of revenue during the last quarter of this financial year, so it's also a stretch to put it the way he did.

 

[RedDevil@84]

it's another thing lining the pockets of a family that are hell-bent on financially raping the club.

Please no rape analogies. Use better words.

 

[croadyman]

Any United fan moaning about the Glazers but still renewing their season tickets year after year need to take a long hard look at themselves. It's one thing supporting the club, it's another thing lining the pockets of a family that are hell-bent on financially raping the club.

I totally agree but the trouble is people feel that they haven't got it in their hearts to turn their back on the club they have supported for so many years which is I can sort of understand, however we are never going to get anywhere until we ever become a United fanbase

 

[Class of 63]

Any United fan moaning about the Glazers but still renewing their season tickets year after year need to take a long hard look at themselves. It's one thing supporting the club, it's another thing lining the pockets of a family that are hell-bent on financially raping the club.

If they were financially raping the club we'd instantly sell anybody of value, only sign free transfers and have all the players on £10,000 a week.

 

[ivaldo]

I still want your opinion on those 34m that are in theory easy money since our budget is already at the required level. Because to me it's a big flaw in the arguments used by a part of the press and fanbase, the Glazers are smart and have a plan built around making money but they just give up at least the equivalent of 5% of our highest turnover?

That's a fair point. The brand is still the most important aspect of the club for the owners imo. It's something the Glazers and Woodward picked up on quickly, and was the reason why our marketing team exponentially increased in size in such a short period of time. A big part of that brand is the image of a successful team. Sponsoring the Premier League winners is a little more of an attractive proposition than sponsoring Champions League qualifiers™.

With that being said, £34m isn't something to sniff at. It's certainly going to factor into their thinking. I agree that calling the owners money grabbers while also accusing them of ignoring attainable income due to a lack of ambition, requires more than a degree of doublethink. When prize money directly correlates with how successful a club is, then it's obvious they're going to try to achieve that prize if you think money is their only driving factor.

Rather ironically, the club has shown, at least on the surface, a deeper care for it's employees, fans and the greater community over these last 6 months than any other club in the country, particularly when you compare it to supposedly 'real' clubs like Liverpool.

 

[UnitedFan93]

If they were financially raping the club we'd instantly sell anybody of value, only sign free transfers and have all the players on £10,000 a week.

No because that wouldn't be sustainable. Revenues and profits would drop significantly after a year or two meaning they would have less money to take out. They're looking to maximise their returns with as little investment as possible. This means targeting top 4 every season and investing very little in OT. In the meantime dividends can be paid and debt repayments made.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I totally agree but the trouble is people feel that they haven't got it in their hearts to turn their back on the club they have supported for so many years which is I can sort of understand, however we are never going to get anywhere until we ever become a United fanbase

Sadly it's the ultimate catch 22 and why United (and football clubs in general) are so interesting for big business. Massive international fanbases that generally remain very loyal, I believe investors call us 'sticky' because we're there through thick and thin, paying out the nose for all manner of things that end up in the pockets of billionaires with no interest in the club itself. We all know the best thing for the club would be for everyone to suddenly stop watching games, not buying anything United related and just wait until the club became so cost ineffective the Glazers had to sell but it will never happen.

Glazer business model is essentially make enough investment to keep social media buzzing, a new signing here and there but as long as we make the CL then they couldn't care less. The beauty of United being so popular is even when you miss the CL, they still make money and the one time they were probably quite scared was when we almost didn't get CL this year and would have lost a lot of Adidas money.

 

[Giggsyking]

It's worse than that - we've spent £838m (!) in the last 10 years financing their ownership of us.

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with this 838m we could have bought Messi, Ronaldo, Mbabe, KDB and Sancho.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Williams is not a LB you saw that after Shaw got injured, if we don't go and get Telles or this Mykolenko guy in the next three weeks we are in big trouble trust me on that, we have also massively screwed up by paying the likes of Jones & Rojo so much money because now we are lumbered with them

I disagree I though Williams did well for his first season, made mistakes sure, but considering it was his first premier league season he was decent and will likely be better this season if we don't find a clear upgrade. If an upgrade is available then yeah let's get them, but city has been trying to sign a decent left-back for years and has been struggling so it not always easy.

Telles for me would just be blowing 20+ million mid-table left-back coming into his late 20's. its the kind of signing that just inflates the size of the squad rather then improves it.

Mykolenko I know very little about so I can't judge, if he is an upgrade on Shaw and Williams and they accept a reasonable fee and contract that means if it doesn't work out we can actually sell him, unlike most of the signings we make. then yeah go for it. But what we don't want to do is make signings for the sake of signings. That's what got us into this mess.

 

[JPRouve]

No because that wouldn't be sustainable. Revenues and profits would drop significantly after a year or two meaning they would have less money to take out. They're looking to maximise their returns with as little investment as possible. This means targeting top 4 every season and investing very little in OT. In the meantime dividends can be paid and debt repayments made.

They are not though, which is the problem and a fairly obvious one. At which point do you think that having our current budget with our current results is even close to maximizing their returns with as little investment? United operating expenses(583m£) in 2019 were higher than Spurs and Liverpool 2020 revenues, who according to Deloitte respectively recorded revenues of 521m€ and 605m€.

 

[Class of 63]

No because that wouldn't be sustainable. Revenues and profits would drop significantly after a year or two meaning they would have less money to take out. They're looking to maximise their returns with as little investment as possible. This means targeting top 4 every season and investing very little in OT. In the meantime dividends can be paid and debt repayments made.

Not sure the club would have paid the fees for Pogba, Lukaku, Maguire et al, and pay the wages they did to Alexis, and currently do for De Gea if the target was just T4

And on the Stadium unless it's possible to build safely over the Railway Line there's not much the club can do.

 

[Ali Dia]

Ed Woodward should have been demoted/fired 3-4 years ago. imagine Woddy doing his shenanigans at Juve. how long will he last? How can it happen to a prestigious club like Manchester United for this long?

The problem is in front of us since 05, The Glazers. Those parasites are abusing the clubs resources to fill up their pockets every single year. It's getting beyond ridiculous and there are many incidents that indicate them to be the culprit. For example, they Sold Ronaldo for a huge sum then brought Valenciea Obertan and Owen. They're still doing the same thing and they'll persist until the United family gathered together to get red of this filth.

It’s because it’s Ed who organised the deal that basically should have been illegal for the glazers to own the club while fronting less than 1/4 of what the club was actually worth. He’s got a job for life that lad. He’s a good one.

 

[UnitedFan93]

They are not though, which is the problem and a fairly obvious one. At which point do you think that having our current budget with our current results is even close to maximizing their returns with as little investment? United operating expenses(583m£) in 2019 were higher than Spurs and Liverpool 2020 revenues, who according to Deloitte respectively recorded revenues of 521m€ and 605m€.

Maybe if the Glazers weren't so commercially obsessed with making as much money as possible they would spend a bit of time putting football men in charge of spending the money and hence spending it more wisely. In reality we have been panic spending on fees/salaries for years trying to make up for the years of under investment from 2009 to 2013.

I'm pretty sure the Glazers are quite happy with their financial returns since 2013; the club is now worth £3/4 billion (that they paid very little for) and they recieve £20 million dividends each year. It's a shame that they have very little sporting ambition and have no desire to improve Old Trafford, the most iconic symbol of the club.

 

[Green_Red]

Covid

Once it's over, we'll really show the world how big we are.

Yea, some lame excuse like that sounds made for Woodward.

 

[Revan]

I'm surprised that people don't question that claim. In 2015/2016 we were in the Champions League and spent big, it's also worth remembering that Di Maria's sale wasn't planned and it would be disingenuous for journalists to pretend otherwise. In 2017/2018 we spent the most in the last 7 years with Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof and Sanchez. It's also worth mentioning that in terms of cash flow the club spend roughly the same amount every year on intangible assets more or less 150m.

So we basically have two CL years where we didn't invest heavily in the team and two CL seasons where we invested heavily.

Whatever doesn't align with the narrative, gets ignored here.