It's truly incredible how quickly the wheels have come off. Excuse after excuse from Jose when quite literally every aspect of our team has been in his control.
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Mata - haha.
Seriously, it's a playing style not a lack of movement from players. One of the biggest issues with our forward players pressing is the fact that defence doesn't actually push up and play a high line. We end up having say our front 3/4 pressing high then a huge space between them. We do not squeeze the pitch and leave space in behind. And that can only be through coaching, if someone like Pep/Klopp took over tomorrow, the team would be working in a totally different manner.
Individual stats from CL
Not moving is not a playing style. It's definitely not a playing style when Lingard, Herrera, Mata, Sanchez and Rashford actually do effectively press.
Below are the three players who've ran the most per 90 mins and the three who've ran the least between United, Liverpool & City in the Champions League per team (minimum 20km covered total excluding CB/GK)
Mata 12.9km vs Milner 12.2km vs B.Silva 11.9km
Fred 11.8km vs Henderson 11.7km vs Mahrez 11.5km
Lingard 11.7km vs Firmino 11.5km vs D.Silva 11.3km
Valencia / Young 9.8km vs Mane 10.5km vs Jesus 10km
Lukaku 9.1km vs Salah 10km vs Sane 9.8km
Martial 8.9km vs Arnold - 10km vs Aguero 9.7km
Straight away you can see where the problem lies. The players at the top of the list are very much comparable, however the players at the bottom of the list are either past being able to cover the required distance (Young / Valencia) or too lazy to cover this distance (Lukaku / Martial).
In central midfield the numbers are equally damning. In an area where we should be covering the most ground Pogba at 10.5km is far behind other central midfielders such as Henderson (11.7km), Milner (12.2km) B.Silva (11.9km) & Gundogan (11.3km).
Workrate is down to the manager. He can talk about Robertson working hard but thats nonsense. We defend in zonal sections and sit back. He made us push up against Fulham to get the crowd happy at Old Trafford. The moment we have a lead or play against an actual quality team we sit back and we get outplayed. We pressed the first half against Liverpool. The players didnt just get tired in the second half. It was instructions. He put an extra midfielder on and made us sit back. The donkey he blew 75m on cant win a header or control a ball for us to counter attack. Everyone can see that except Jose. His tactics and team selections are the reasons for bad workrate.
Interesting stats. How do Matic, Fellaini and Hererra stack up?
Herrera hasn't played 90 mins but the others are much better than you'd think:
Fellaini - 11.6km
Matic - 11.5km
The only thing I'd say about Fellaini is that against Young Boys (A) and Juventus (A) he only played the last 15-25 mins which may contribute positively to distance per min (you'd expect a greater coverage per minute). Naturally you also have to look in how our team is utilising their distance covered. Matic and Fellaini for instance are not players who will press the opposition.
It's a shame no one seems to release the Opta figures for the Premier League as I also get the feeling that certain players put in less effort in games where we're expected to win.
Well there you go. More interesting stats. It certainly seems as though our constant wallowing at the bottom of the distance covered table seems to be more down to a handful of spectacularly lazy and/or over the hill players than any kind of coordinated strategy to conserve energy.
Re Fellaini. His distance stats have always been good. I remember - not long after we signed him - seeing stats about him covering huge distances as a CM. It was mentioned at the time that he used to run 10km races at a fairly elite level.
In fact, those stats are so interesting I’ve threadmarked them.
That's certainly the story that the CL distances suggest and as I say I'd imagine there would be an even greater chasm if we looked at playing the likes of Brighton where players are under less scrutiny than Juventus.
It doesn't sound like a lot but if our full backs should be covering another 0.5km each; plus Martial, Pogba and Lukaku should be covering another 1.5-2km each... If you exclude the GK and CB's that's an extra 2km each (or more than 15%) that the other 3 players on the pitch need to run to make up for it.
Crazy thing he could've bought Fabinho. We were linked with him every summer and they both share an agent. And fabinho admitted we never approached him . Jose chose Matic
Exactly. And I’d say it’s fairly fine margins that can make the overall workrate for a team look good vs shit. Just takes 4 or 5 relative passengers and suddenly we’re the laziest team in the league.
Absolutely. This was apparent from Klopp's first game in charge. The first one against Tottenham in White Hart Lane, and here are the stats to prove it:
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The more interesting stat is about sprints.
The distance covered one does not tell much about intensity. If you take Sane, for instance, he has covered only 9,8 km per game but I'm sure he's has made many sprints. Same with Salah and Mane. Their stats are not spectacular regarding distance covered but are probably quite good re sprints. That is, how you cover distance is no less important than how much. Jogging around for 90 minutes would make for decent stats about distance covered.
United are 18th in the EPL with respect to sprints. City were 1st last season and I'm sure they and Liverpool are thereabouts this season too.
The distance covered one does not tell much about intensity. If you take Sane, for instance, he has covered only 9,8 km per game but I'm sure he's has made many sprints. Same with Salah and Mane. Their stats are not spectacular regarding distance covered but are probably quite good re sprints. That is, how you cover distance is no less important than how much. Jogging around for 90 minutes would make for decent stats about distance covered.
United are 18th in the EPL with respect to sprints. City were 1st last season and I'm sure they and Liverpool are thereabouts this season too.
Which is kind of why I bumped this thread. The prevailing opinion in this thread was that Mourinho wants his players to not cover big distances. So it made no sense to hear him waxing lyrical about Robertson eating up the yards.
Now I’m reading that fair few players in our team do cover as much ground as the work horses at City/Pool. So the lack of effort of the laziest players in our team must infuriate Mourinho as much as it does us fans.
Still, though. He signed them and it’s his job to motivate them. So ultimately the buck stops with the manager. Like everything else.
Now I’m reading that fair few players in our team do cover as much ground as the work horses at City/Pool. So the lack of effort of the laziest players in our team must infuriate Mourinho as much as it does us fans.
Still, though. He signed them and it’s his job to motivate them. So ultimately the buck stops with the manager. Like everything else.
The team sprints stats can be just as distorted by lazy individuals as the team distance covered stats. We need to see individual sprint stats before we make any conclusions about anything. Otherwise it’s all just conjecture.
Might be the case. I think Rashford and Lingard do quite well regarding sprints, Shaw probably too.
It seems to me that the problem is mostly tactical though. We don't use enough high press which requires more intensity and speed both in attack (after dispossessing the opposition) and defence (when the opposition plays through the press).
The big differece between us and Liverpool is not so much about the overall distance covered as about the intensity with which it is covered. Maybe there will appear statistical analyses of the last game but the eye test says that Liverpool made much more sprints and it is not because say Lukaku or Bailly were lazy. Sure, some are lazy but the reason is mostly tactical imo.
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How much is tactics and how much is down to individuals not correctly following tactics is impossible to know. But it’s been a real eye opener to see the likes of Lingard, Matic, Fellaini and Fred cover as much distance in CL matches as the players covering the most ground at Liverpool and City while our team - as a whole - covers less ground than any other PL team.
That certainly seems to be to indicate that the widely accepted explanation for us collectively working so much less hard than other PL teams is because Mourinho prefers his players to stay compact and not cover much ground might not hold much water.
That's wrong though, it depends on each players role within each teams. For example Wijnaldum covers 10.8km that's more comparable to Pogba. Lukaku isn't used like the players you compared him to, he isn't switching positions like Firmino and Aguero do, same thing with Martial which means that they don't have the lateral distances to cover and that's tactical.
Defenders might obey instructions related to their zones or something. If the midifelders, Rashford, Lingard and Mata cover so much distance, then the defenders + Lukaku and Martial/Sanchez must be responsible for the bad stats regarding distance covered. The latter are roughly 1,5 km combined off the stats of their counterparts at City. So, the defenders are responsible too. I guess high pressing would leave free spaces and thus defenders would have to run more.
The problem is from 2016. Jose has had 2 years to identify where it comes from and fix it. Martial might be a problem indeed but Mkhi who was covering 11 km per game was shipped out and Lukaku and Sanchez brought in and the latter cover 9 km per game. Surely, Jose knew that Lukaku and Sanchez do not cover much distance when he went for them. At least, Sanchez is probably doing it with higher intensity.
Personally, I do not think that if we had different defenders and different attackers, we'd be up there with the work rate of the top teams, at least not intensity wise. Jose should have sold the lazy feckers after his first season here. The irony is that some of his own signings are among them: Lukaku, Bailly and Sanchez.
Klopp instantly changed the work rate of Liverpool players when he went there as one of the tweets above shows. Jose has had enough time to find a solution. Instead he made the work rate worse compared to LVG when United were among the top 6 teams re distance covered. It's mostly on Jose.
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The thing is, Mata plays as if he is Messi in our team. He has complete freedom to move all over the pitch. I'm not surprised his is so high.
And what I meant by style is like I said in my post, the front guys usually run and press well, but that is not backed by a midfield who push high and a defence who do the same. It's only ever one of the midfielders that presses and not the whole line. Where as City/Liverpool play most of the game in their oppositions half.
Hopefully Ole and Phelan improve this.
This is one of the things that annoys me most as we one of the laziest teams in the league. We don’t press or run. No excuses now for the players of Jose telling them to sit back. I expect our fullbacks to be the biggest improvers in terms of work rate rather than waiting in our half when we attack.
This is one of the things that annoys me most as we one of the laziest teams in the league. We don’t press or run. No excuses now for the players of Jose telling them to sit back. I expect our fullbacks to be the biggest improvers in terms of work rate rather than waiting in our half when we attack.
V Cardiff (a) Oles back!!
Must have managed it today right? About 10km up at half time.
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We did. i just saw a tweet.
#MUFC outran Cardiff by over 5km and made 20 more sprints than opposition.
Only other team they have outran this season was Fulham at home, by 0.16km.
Surprise surprise
Lingard must have ran a half marathon today.
Wow. That's weird.
Hahahahaha I seem to remember Liverpool running stats increasing as soon as Klopp took over. Same is happening here. All about the tactics.
Solskjaer: 'A Manchester United team should never be outworked, you should run more than them.'
It sounds so simple but somehow we didnt do it enough under Jose.
It sounds so simple but somehow we didnt do it enough under Jose.
The difference between a pro active manager and a reactive one
Music to my ears.
Cardiff themselves are not among the hard workers in the league, hope we can match the work rate of the top teams now.
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Honestly it was very easy to understand. When you use attacking fullbacks, you ask them to play a 100m game, they will pile kilometers simply because it's their role as attacking fullbacks and players love that, they are not going to refuse it. For our attackers, the difference is lateral, today their area was superior to half of the width when under Mourinho it was at best a third, that's a bigger distance and same thing as for defenders, attackers love that freedom and will use it.
Then you have the pressing, anyone that has played football as a kid will remember how we played, hunting every balls and trying to touch it as much as possible, again players love that and will do it without thinking about it twice.
I mentioned in an other thread, under Mourinho our players played in a way that is not natural, it was clearly based on instructions. No team instinctively retreat and ignore the ball carrier and no team instinctively divide the field in small areas.
feck yeah.
Great post.
It really is great to see that this can be turned around in just one match with some relatively simple instructions 
We had a discussion about it earlier in this thread, but I still don't really understand why Mourinho implemented that 'economical' style of play so rigidly.
From a mental and footballing point of view as a manager I can see various advantages to trying to make your team play on a level where they are and remain 'competitive' while using the most 'economical' style of play (more so taking into account aspects like trying to diminish the risk of fatigue related injuries).
What I don't understand is why it had to be like that quite literally every single fecking game. Why not use the economical style 70-85% of the time for example, and let the team put the turbo on in games where we're expected to struggle the most, like for example in away games against bottom of the table opposition like Cardiff yesterday, where we have lost many points in the last years? Boggles my mind.
We had a discussion about it earlier in this thread, but I still don't really understand why Mourinho implemented that 'economical' style of play so rigidly.
From a mental and footballing point of view as a manager I can see various advantages to trying to make your team play on a level where they are and remain 'competitive' while using the most 'economical' style of play (more so taking into account aspects like trying to diminish the risk of fatigue related injuries).
What I don't understand is why it had to be like that quite literally every single fecking game. Why not use the economical style 70-85% of the time for example, and let the team put the turbo on in games where we're expected to struggle the most, like for example in away games against bottom of the table opposition like Cardiff yesterday, where we have lost many points in the last years? Boggles my mind.
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Anyone know where I can find stats about our average number of sprints and distance covered for our last three games and compare it to matches before?
No matter what team you're playing they can't stop you running. It's absolutely damning on Mourinho that Ole has completely changed this in 3 games.
I read he's sending them warm weather training, after the Reading game, in Dubai too. He must feel there is room for improvement there, so it's good to see there is a move towards a more buccaneering style, if not only in fitness levels.
Ye I think it is important in this day and age for english teams to do that. I we are to lure some of the south american, spanish players etc to our club and compete with the italian and spanish leagues we need to do these kind of things a couple of times a year