Would we ever sack a manager as long as he kept delivering top 4?

[Skills]

Imagine if we landed ourselves on a decent yet fairly unambitious manager. Like a better version of Moyes who is not capable of winning trophies, or doesn't play great football but will always deliver a 4th place position. Think Wenger but without all the years of good will he built up through his years at Arsenal.

Would the club ever sack said manager? Would you as a fan ever call for this managers head? It seems like the only way for this club to move on from someone is if they completely shit the bed. And even then it's a huge struggle with calls to give them more time/money.

 

[Raw]

I don't think the club would sack him, but I'd sack him if after a few years he hasn't won or even challenged for a trophy. Especially if, like you said, they didn't even play great football. Guess it would also depend on if there was a top manager available too.

 

[Carolina Red]

There was a thread about this in the Newbies a few years ago. Called it the “Arsenalification” of Manchester United.

We’ve slowly been slipping into it, it seems.

 

[charlenefan]

LVG still would have been sacked had he squeezed a 4th place finish (dont forget we only missed out that yeah on GD) imo so yes

 

[devilish]

There's absolutely nothing wrong about having a minimum achievement bar. However, I hope we judge managers on other issues like how successful he is on the transfer market, the environment he create at the club and whether he plays a style of football the fans actually like.

 

[Foxbatt]

Moyes would have probably got us into the top 4 regularly but with boring uninspired football. But it is not good enough for Manchester United to go on without winning the PL or the CL for a period.

 

[meninred]

Arsenal did.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Arsenal did.

Wenger? he got the sack after failing to get in CL.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Moyes would have probably got us into the top 4 regularly but with boring uninspired football. But it is not good enough for Manchester United to go on without winning the PL or the CL for a period.

Not so sure about that. He took a winning Premier League team and took them to 7th!

His idea of progress was to sack all the winning support staff and hire Fellaini as our fresh recruit to challenge for positions!

 

[Pavl3n]

Wenger? he got the sack after failing to get in CL.

He didn't get the sack. Nor he left the very season after he failed to deliver CL spot.
His European record was 5 times in a row knocked out at the R16 and twice Europa League (there might have been a season where he reached the quarters - I think Monaco with Berbatov dispatched them that year).

We shouldn't be satisfied with that. Mourinho should be shown the door after PSG beat us 5:2 on aggregate.

 

[Denis79]

Don't think we would sack him. Our board isn't ambitious enough. I got a feeling that they don't care how we play, what we challenge for or how our manager behaves himself as long as we make top 4.

 

[Infra-red]

This is Woodward/The Glazers' dream. Of course they would never sack him.

 

[AndyJ1985]

Nope. We'd be another Arsenal, happy with top 4 every year

 

[laughtersassassin]

That's the Glazers dream. If you can guarantee top 4 you have a guaranteed money stream. Think that was their plan for Jose tbh. Give him enough to never win but to always get top 4.

 

[Moonwalker]

LVG still would have been sacked had he squeezed a 4th place finish (dont forget we only missed out that yeah on GD) imo so yes

Correct. You'd have to believe that another goal for Swansea 5 days earlier would have called off the sacking when it's pretty clear an agreement with Mourinho was in place for months.

 

[Sylar]

Depends on availability. Right now theres nobody available that would be seen as a better option.

I think had LVG got 4th, he would have still been replaced as Ed wanted Jose and he was available.
If however from now until end of the season Jose somehow wins every game and we get CL football (or fluke our way to CL trophy) I reckon he stays (Unless Poch becomes available. Then again I could see Ed wanting Zidane and seeing him as a Galactico manager).

Basically were fooked.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

It depends on the occasion. Wenger kept getting CL qualification but it was pretty clear that, in the last 7-8 years of his tenure at Arsenal, the club was stuck in mediocrity with no aspirations for a title challenge or a good campaign in Europe. This is a sign that the manager has found his ceiling and the club should move on. On the other hand, Klopp hasn't won a major trophy yet (and hopefully, he never will) but it's clear for all to see that he gets the best out of his players, that Liverpool are playing modern football and that, in general, they look like they're going places.

Having said that, it's not a bad thing to set top-four finishes as a minimum goal for the manager on the basis that the PL is not a two/three-team league like La Liga. We're not even getting that atm for feck's sake. But you must have the right people who will be able to see beyond that an make the decision to cut the chord when a better option becomes available.

 

[Betson]

There was a thread about this in the Newbies a few years ago. Called it the “Arsenalification” of Manchester United.

We’ve slowly been slipping into it, it seems.

Roy Keane commented on that yesterday when Mourino said we are still in the fight for top 4. Keane said this is Man utd and we are talking about top 4 been the height of our ambitions. It should never be that way but that is the way it has become. And even top 4 looks beyond our level right now.

 

[Volumiza]

Why would they? That and a decent stab at the title would be seen as successful if the manager was doing it while playing good football. The thing is, no one is happy right now but seriously, if we could get back to getting top 4 each year playing decent football I'd be happy. The days where we win the title every 1 - 2 years are long gone, the league is a completely different beast now.

 

[Josep Dowling]

He didn't get the sack. Nor he left the very season after he failed to deliver CL spot.
His European record was 5 times in a row knocked out at the R16 and twice Europa League (there might have been a season where he reached the quarters - I think Monaco with Berbatov dispatched them that year).

We shouldn't be satisfied with that. Mourinho should be shown the door after PSG beat us 5:2 on aggregate.

2 goals against PSG, won't we have 8 defenders on to deal with Mbappe, Cavani and Neymar?

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Atkinson always got top 4 and was sacked.

 

[Niall]

Roy Keane commented on that yesterday when Mourino said we are still in the fight for top 4. Keane said this is Man utd and we are talking about top 4 been the height of our ambitions. It should never be that way but that is the way it has become. And even top 4 looks beyond our level right now.

At the end of that Sky coverage Keane was directly asked “Will United make top 4 this season?”. His answer: “No chance”.

Oh how far we have fallen.

 

[Leftback99]

Whatever decision maximises profits.

 

[Betson]

At the end of that Sky coverage Keane was directly asked “Will United make top 4 this season?”. His answer: “No chance”.

Oh how far we have fallen.

None of them in the Sky studio thought we had a chance of top 4 and they are most likely right , some people clinging to the false hope that it is 'only' 11 pts. But the fact is that the teams above us are better than us and that gap is likely to increase rather than decrease as the season goes on. We could yet be pining for the days where we were 'only' 11 pts off top 4.

 

[Niall]

None of them in the Sky studio thought we had a chance of top 4 and they are most likely right , some people clinging to the false hope that it is 'only' 11 pts. But the fact is that the teams above us are better than us and that gap is likely to increase rather than decrease as the season goes on. We could yet be pining for the days where we were 'only' 11 pts off top 4.

Agreed. The current top 5 teams are playing so much better than us that it would take a massive turnaround in form for us to have any chance of top 4 this season.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

At this point, why does it even matter to us, as fans, if we get Top 4 anyway...? We aren't gonna win the CL with this regime in charge.

If it's a matter of attracting a better manager then that person should come in now like Klopp did when he joined Liverpool - if it's someone already at a club, then they must be at a CL club for that factor to matter to them - I can only really imagine Pochettino in that category, and he wouldn't mind missing 1 season of CL to come here.

Regarding players, we signed Pogba and Zlatan without CL football.

It's good for the Glazers and their employees, because it brings them money. But really, it barely matters to us as fans at this point.

It's like a lower league club trying to get through an FA Cup round so it will bring money to the club, though they have no real ambition of winning the competition.

 

[Handré1990]

Agreed. The current top 5 teams are playing so much better than us that it would take a massive turnaround in form for us to have any chance of top 4 this season.

Proof is in the pudding. There is no empirical evidence of us having the tools for such a turnaround. We’re out of that particular race. Perhaps when it’s finally mathematically impossible we’ll see more relaxed players, and better performances because the pressure is off? That’s my tiny hope at least.

 

[fezzerUTD]

Hope so.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Under a competent board/CEO, yes, that can happen. Under the current board and Woodward, it is unlikely.
And no, we are not getting into top 4. We lose against all big teams and lose/draw against at least 50% of the middle and lower teams. So no chance.

 

[Buster15]

Under SAF even second place was regarded as failure, especially by Sir Alex himself.

Currently the PL is more competitive with 5 good teams fighting for the 4 CL places.

Alas for United, top 4 seems a step too far this season. Even Jose only really believes that top 6 is more likely.

 

[a_devil_inside]

It seems our aim every season is top 4, which for a team like us is very poor.
As for the question if we weren't progressing then yes I'd expect a change in managers.

 

[villain]

Genuinely don't think the board cares about winning as long as the money is still being generated.

There doesn't seem to be a hunger/appetite to win titles again.

 

[Raees]

Title should be changed to whether we would ever boo a manager if he kept on delivering top 4... we don't even boo when the manager scrapes into the top 6

 

[Kearnkoff69]

Genuinely don't think the board cares about winning as long as the money is still being generated.

There doesn't seem to be a hunger/appetite to win titles again.

I think you're right, and it's an incredibly naive and short-sighted POV they've taken. I genuinely believe that the owners only care about making the club profitable, but I also believe that they lack a proper understanding about the uniqueness of the game that will only be driven home when we stop signing big advertising deals and such. Right now, they're piggybacking off of our historic success, but historic success only gets you so far. If we keep this pattern up, some day soon we won't be an attractive corporate partner. Sure, we'll always get a nice cut from the lucrative EPL TV deal, but nobody wants to partner with a team that's stuck in perpetual mediocrity. Kids will stop growing up watching us because we're boring, and after a while we may start getting pushed out of the prime-time slots on American coverage.

Because of the way leagues are set up and the comparatively low quantity of teams in each league, in American sports, even mediocre teams are fairly profitable investments for rich people. American owners fail when they assume that the English game operates in a similar way - they think they can operate a team that is comfortably average, rake in the TV and advertising dollars, and plod along. In England, some measure of success is necessary to maintain the status quo. The big name players who are advertising darlings won't come play here if there's no chance of a trophy. The fall from grace is a vicious spiral in the PL - arrest it soon enough and you might be a Liverpool who comes back after a short rebuild. Wait long enough, and you're the next Newcastle - once a consistent force in the top flight, now resigned to perpetually fight just to stay in the league.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Imagine if we landed ourselves on a decent yet fairly unambitious manager. Like a better version of Moyes who is not capable of winning trophies, or doesn't play great football but will always deliver a 4th place position. Think Wenger but without all the years of good will he built up through his years at Arsenal.

Would the club ever sack said manager? Would you as a fan ever call for this managers head? It seems like the only way for this club to move on from someone is if they completely shit the bed. And even then it's a huge struggle with calls to give them more time/money.

Yes we would...Our owners aren’t trigger happy but they aren’t stupid or unambitious.Mourinho will be gone next summer,unless he can win the CL..,,

 

[Moonwalker]

So much for the 'mathematically top four' spiel.

 

[Revan]

Since Fergie left, we have spent more money (in wages and transfers) than any other club in the world bar City. I think that the board want more than a consistent 4th place. If you spent like champions, you want more than a 4th place.

The 'board cares only about the 4th place' is as true as 'United sacks managers only when it is mathematically impossible to get 4th place'. A legend based on absolutely nothing.

 

[Wibble]

A bit of an irrelevant discussion now.